Audioholics review of the Denon AVR-5803!

[Khellandros66]

<font color='#000000'>wine4et,

i too would like to se what the 3804 will be, but i'd love to see a 4804!, the 4802R from what i've heard was a bit of disappointment due to only software improvements and no hardware.

I only forsee, more component video inputs, auto-calibration, a third coaxil digital input, and newer DACs.

Bob</font>

 

[Rob Babcock]

<font color='#000000'>I've got a AVR-3802.  I'd love to get the '03, but now I'm sorta wondering if an '04 is coming soon.  Yeah, a 4804 would rock.  I'd like to see DVI inputs on that one, an extra coax, and I don't think a Firewire input or two (for, among other thing, the Firewire out that I hope their next complete line of Universal players will have) is unreasonable at the $2k price they ask for.  

Also nice would be the ability to apply the built in upsampling to all the DSP modes (okay, really just 5 ch stereo, Matrix, and DLPII- they're the only useful DSP modes, IMHO).

And while I'm dreaming anyway, how about updating the designs to incorporate digital amps? &nbsp;Sony already features their S-Master Pro digital amps in their ES line, ranging from $800 to $1500. &nbsp;Surely Denon could do the same. &nbsp;It would probably actually be cheaper, and would certainly make cooling much easier. &nbsp;Also it would take much less space, allowing a smaller unit or allowing them to pack in some other stuff.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>If a 38-4 or 4804 are coming?? &nbsp;any idea on timing?</font>

 

[petermwilson]

<font color='#000000'>Hi,
When I had my 5800 upgraded to argueably 95% of 5803 status I based my decision on recieving features that were meaningful to the way I personally use the equipment as well as future saleability. &nbsp;

The DPLII was of marginal interest to me, but DolbyHeadphone extended my viewing hrs &quot;big time&quot;.

The upgraded DAC's and THX ULIRA II were also a big part of that decision.

If the DPL IIx is even available to 5800/03 owners, For me to move this 62lb monster out of my rack there will have to be much more meat on the bone.

And &nbsp;it's easier than for many given my proximity in that my dealer gives Denon a P.O., I throw it in the back of my car and drive it myself the 15 miles to the Toronto HQ.

Now, if there going to up the amps to 225 X 7, I'll start unplugging stuff now.

I'm just guessing but if you've got a 5803 then you've probably got alot of other serious gear as well and even though it's nice I can't see DPL IIx (unless it's a software/disc in the mail) upgrade getting too many folks off the couch.

Peter m.</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Peter;

I tend to agree with your viewpoints regarding the upgrade.  Perhaps Denon will offer other incentives in the upgrade besides PLIIx.  However, short of Room Correction, DVI interfacing and Video de-interlacing, I can't imagine what else can be added to this receiver since it pretty much has every conceivable option home theater has to offer today.  I suppose we shall see.  As for future 04 models of the 38 and 48 series, I just don't have that info to share right now, though I hear new receivers are in the works to be debuted for 2004 CES.</font>

 

[DenonJeff]

<font color='#000000'>Folks,

We will probably show replacements for the 38/48/58 series receivers at CES in January. &nbsp;Availability is first half of next year - is that vague enough? &nbsp;I can't give out any more specific details at this time, as I don't want our competitors to know what we are up to...

As for the 5803 upgrade to PLIIx, it will more than likely integrate other goodies but I can't comment on those either at this time. &nbsp;Should know more in the next 30 days.

The digital amp idea is something we are investigating, particularly on the high-end, even the seperates, but if we do it, it must be right and of DENON standards.

Keep the comments coming...

Regards,

</font>

 

[PaulF]

<font color='#000000'>DenonJeff,

Thanks for sharing some Denon insights on this board. A little feedback from my perspective. A new receiver with a well implemented digital amp section will go a long way towards coaxing me into my next receiver upgrade. THD in the order of 0.01% at max rated output, 150W is already plenty. I like the idea of something that is 90%+ effecient and half the size of current flagships. A well implemeted switchmode power supply is also a plus in my book as this can further increase efficiency and reduce size.

While I'm on the subject, please bear with me on some related topics.

If we are going to be provided with a proprietary digital connection between components, then why not make this connection capable of transferring all format types so that we can have just a single connection between DVD and receiver? By all means keep the other connectors for compatibility with other vendors devices. My understanding is the an S/PDIF can't cope with all formats but a proprietary connection could be chosen independently of compatibility considerations. Thus even with DVI connectivity to a monitor, the DVI output would only need to be provided at the receiver.

When I consider a sound reproduction system I look at the total cost. If we must use multiple connections to achieve the best that each format has to offer, &nbsp;DVI or component, tosslink/coax, analog and 1483/proprietary cabling add to a significant amount. Not to mention the mess of wires.

In addition there seems to be a great deal of duplicity in functionality that doesn't need to be there. I'm sure this is adding to the cost. Flagship receivers (not necessarily all Denon) have now implemeted bass management for practically all formats, channel trims, deinterlacing, Dolby and DTS decoding (and all derivatives) and some of the finest DAC sections known to man, then why not provide one model DVD player as a basic digital transport that pairs with your flagship receiver and let the recever do the work. This again would lower the total cost and simpify operation of the system for the user.

Paul</font>

 

[DenonJeff]

<font color='#000000'>Paul,

Good observations.  The whole single cable (industry standard anyway) for audio and video is still a ways down the road.  It is frustrating for all of us in the business that a single digital cable approved by all can handle any and all digital audio - but such is the day we live in.  I had my engineers recently give me a course, from their standpoint, on DVI (4 versions), IEEE-1394 (at least 5 versions) and the upcoming HDMI (2 versions, so far), so when we talk about digital transporting of data by one type or another and not knowing which version, it truly gets to nerve racking!  Hopefully it will straighten out and soon!

Regarding your proposal for a DVD transport - we are already on it.  It was shown at a recent HiFi show in Germany.  We will show it at CES in January.  Can't say more now but just wait...</font>

 

[PaulF]

<font color='#000000'>Jeff,

Thanks for the quick response. I would like to elaborate on the first point but will first stress that I am by no means an expert in digitial connectivity, however.

While I do understand that there are multiple versions of each interface type, this would be more of a consideration between vendors. When implementing a proprietary connection between two components of the same vendor it simply comes down to one version of one interface type that can handle all the data formats that need to be transferred. Again it does not need to handle them in any industry standard way, just need to be able to pass information from one device to another.

The reason I stress this is because if Denon (or any other vendor) pushes ahead with this, it will go a long way towards getting the industry to implement a standard. But even without a standard the economics work for the user. Lets look at some rough numbers.

A DVD 5900 costs $2K list, a 5803 about $4.5K list. Add $500 in cabling to cover all formats and we're at $7.K.

Now move the deinterlacer into the receiver (as some of your competition have done). While you're at it move the video DAC to the receiver as the deinterlacer works on digital video and this would prevent the need to reconvert analog video to digital and back again. My guess is you add about $500 to the price of the receiver. The 5803 practically does eveything else anyway. Now you can produce a real simple $500 or less universal digital transport, you could even do away with all other industry standard connectors and just provide the proprietary one for an even lower cost. Add maybe $60 for an interconnect cable and we're up to $5,560. That's $1,450 cheaper than an alternate solution that forces me to buy everything twice over.

The appeal of the DVD as a digital transport is very much tied to it's ability to transfer everything over a single connection.

Paul</font>

 

[petermwilson]

<font color='#000000'>Hi,
My prediction for Denon's market thrust and the successor to the 5803 is that the new Flagship will make the concept of bi-amplification moot, and as (I think I responded to a question from Hawke a while back) we'll see upmarket separates.

Denon, as Gene pointed out, made too comprehensive of a product in the 5803.

I have paid a total of $550.00 cdn (tax included) for a dicontinued 5 disc Sony mltich sacd and a discontinued 7 disc JVC dvd-a player that are neatly plugged into the (God bless you Denon) TWO sets of 8ch analogs, of which at the moment I only use 6ch.

Fortuneately I don't know dither from shmither and everything sounds awsome in my small room. &nbsp;So if Denon can offer something in the upgrade path to coax this beast out of it's lair no one will be more suprised than me.

Peter m.</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>I would like to thank Jeff to take the time in our forums to discuss Denon products and standards.  Given his busy schedule and active participation on many of the other leading audio web forums, this is a real treat for us.


Peter;

Just wondering why you think you need to spend $500 on cables to connect a Denon DVD-5900 to an AVR-5803?  All you really need is to connect the D-Link audio cable between the two units for audio and Component Video for video, and maybe DVI to the TV.  

Digital Interconnect should be: &gt;$50
Component Video Cables: &gt; $100
DVI Cable:  &gt;$50
Total Cost: about $200

Also, I agree with your idea behind the DVD transport and often wondered that myself, but consider the production costs of making a product for a very small customer base would probably make it as expensive as producing the same unit with all the Audio/Video circuitry.  The same argument holds true for taking the amp section out of a AVR-5803 and selling it as a processor.  Jeff, correct me if I am wrong?

Regarding Receivers
As the next Denon Receiver Flagship, I vote for sticking with Class AB amps and linear power supplies, upping the power to 200wpc x 7 (double the output devices on the front channels to have the ability to sink more current for low impedance loads) subsequently making it the worlds biggest and heaviest receiver  

While most people don't need this much power, they are usually clouded by
&quot;more watts = better&quot; mentality allowing usually inferior quality products to thrive for that market demand.  It would be nice to see the worlds most powerful receiver is also the quietist.  Unfortunately that is not the case for the currently most powerful 7CH  32lb $4200 receiver whose name we will not mention to keep on topic.

People are starting to realize however that many of today's flagship receivers are either on par or outgunning most separates selling at and even sometimes more money.

My theory is:  

A great separates route (usually &gt; $10K retail) is comprised of 3 boxes:

1 5CH amp (many high end multichannel amps are 5CH, some of the 7CH amps make too many compromises in comparison to cram the extra 2CH's in.  The ones that don't often wind up weighing over 100lbs and are usually over 2ft deep!)
1 2CH amp
1 Pre/Pro
Total Boxes: 3 !!!

We have found that most consumers have the height availability  in their shelves, but not multiple slots or the width or depth (beyond 20&quot to accommodate 2 or 3 pieces.   Thus I propose if the Receiver is going to grow in size b/c of added power (assuming conventional Class AB amp and linear power supply used) a vertical jump wont be as bad, especially since the total volume of this Super Receiver would still be less than a separates alternative comprising of 2 or 3 boxes.  Any takers?

[edited: added comments about receivers]</font>

 

[PaulF]

<font color='#000000'>Gene,

I assume you were referring to me (Paul) about the cables and not Peter. Your assesment is correct if the receiver has implemented bass management, channel trims, and level compensation between formats to your satisfaction, and if the DAC in the receiver is superior than that of the DVD, in this case the 5900. However what I have found is that generally the best DVD players will provide the best audio and video DAC sections. In this case the user may opt for analog outputs to the receiver. I factored about $65-$70 per stereo cable, the 5900 has 8 analog out requiring 4 cables which come to roughly $280.

When it comes to the breakdown between boxes I think that we have all been trained to think a certain way. My preference would be to have a neutral all format DVD transport, and receiver that does all the digital decoding and amplification. The 5803 is so close, but when you compare it to the best Denon offers in the 5900, it's the 5900 that takes the performance prize.

Now that Yamaha has introduced deinterlacing in their new flagship, I expect others like Denon will follow suit. However this requires that video on the analog inputs such as component, be redigitzed, processed and converted back to analog. It could have stayed digital out if Yamaha provided a DVI output. In any case the ADC process reduces the picture quality and adds to the cost. If the DAC were simply put in the receiver after the deinterlacing, then all we have done is transferred the cost of the DAC to the reciever (but removed the cost of the ADC).

In reference to the next generation Denon flagship receiver being 200W analogue, I know you say this tongue in cheek, but look at the Yamaha modular implementation. There seems to be nothing about it that benefits the user (directly), rather, it seems to be a manufacturing benefit. With a modular setup, the preamp/processor section could be paired with amp sections of different designs, keeping everybody happy. I don't know how many times I have said &quot; I wish I could get all those features in an amp of 150W with significantly less THD and noise&quot;.

If we wait for standards to evolve on a single digital interface for all audio/video then it could be a long time. These multi-company committees are full of individual company interests which significantly hold up the process. I can see a company going this route in order to prevent a format war, just slug it out in the committee first. However, there are many times where the innovation of one company have been adopted by the industry because it was well ahead of others and something took root. In this case there is no competition for an all inclusive digital interface because no-one is doing it. This could be a great opertunity for Denon or Yamaha to move to the forefront on this issue.</font>

 

[petermwilson]

<font color='#000000'>Hi Gene
I'm afraid you may be thinking of or perhaps addressing a different Peter, if so my apologies for jumping in here. &nbsp;I would never spend that kind of money on cables.

The $550cdn that I'm speaking of is for the total amount spent for 2 separate dvds, 1 being a 5disc Sony dvd/ sacd player and 2 being a 7 disc dvd/dvd-a player which are connected to EXT1 and EXT 2 respectively. It's nice to have the option of playing one of 12 HIREZ discs without having to get off my derriere. &nbsp;

These players are used strictly for HIREZ audio and played through the Denon and my Totem speaker setup are quite satisfying and allow me to comfortably sit on the sidelines while the universal digital connectivity wars ensue.

For video I use an SDI modded Panny rp82 through an Immersive HOLO3D computer PCI scaler card and scale all 480i inputs to 1080i using its dcdi chip. &nbsp;

Since my upgraded Denon 5800 also allows for upsampled RedBook cds and the Panasonic RP82 upsamples from 44.1/16 to 88.2/24 (not many recievers offer this particular sound upsampling frequency) I use it for regluar and hdcds.

Even though the upgrade provided the Denon Link, at the time the Denon 9000 at $5000.00 list CDN, which is a single disc player and started out with the &quot;chroma bug&quot; was the only player offering limited digital connectivity and did not seem cost effective. &nbsp;
I do not own a Denon 5900 although I'm sure it's a fine machine.

Peter m.</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Peter/Paul sorry for the mix up  

Paul;

I guess I partly don't understand why you would use the 6CH analog connects if you have a DVD-5900 and AVR-5803.  I would probably go the D-Link route.  The DAC section in the AVR-5803 is still probably a step up  or comparible to the 5900 since it utilized Dual Differential 1738E Burr Browns in multi channel and Quad Dual Differential in 2CH.  Not 100% sure however if the AVR-5803 will convert SACD to PCM or not, perhaps Jeff can confirm.  If it does, then you may get better audible results via 6CH analog connections.

I am going out on a limb here since I have not yet seen the 5900, but I would bet the AVR-5803 still has more flexible bass management and digital delay compensation options, thus I again opt for the digital link for those benefits and to cut down on the cables.

Ultimately we will find these answers out together when the product samples are available for our review.  Stay tuned...

[added SACD query]</font>

 

[PaulF]

<font color='#000000'>Gene,

I was just suggesting that in order to get the best of all worlds with the way equipment is engineered today, sometimes you may need to use the receiver as the decoder, at other times the DVD player. This will of course vary with different DVD and receiver combinations. As you say this may or not be the case with the 5900/5803 combo but a review will tell.

My main points are that a proprietary link between components from the same manufacturer does not have to be limited to a single format and could service all signal types, thus cutting cabling to one. The other that it would seem that using a DVD player as a transport potentially offers the total lowest cost system.</font>