Audioholics Article Marking Changes for Previews vs Reviews

Trell

Trell

Audioholic Ninja
That said, it seems that there is a crossover behavior in his forum and what I see and experience over at AVS. I agree that there is a segment of engineering ‘types’ (whether in the industry or not) who participate in a cliquish and browbeating manner.
If you can’t bewilder with proper verbiage and mathematics, you clearly don’t belong. For those that go in hopes of learning, even with humility, asking questions leads to next to nothing.
That is a little harsh, though there are members that fit that description. On this forum and on ASR there are many knowledgeable members that helps people without being a lord helmet about it.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
That is a little harsh, though there are members that fit that description. On this forum and on ASR there are many knowledgeable members that helps people without being a lord helmet about it.
Coming from the "Keyboard Cowboy" and "Troll" that we all know you are, that's quite gentlemanly ;).
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Warlord
I'm retired now, but had a 45-year career in biochemistry and cancer research. I've certainly run into that "cliquish and browbeating" behavior a time or two. It has been my experience that this kind of behavior almost always comes not from ignorance or inexperience, but from people who feel somehow disappointed in their careers. They falsely believe that arrogance or bravado can compensate for that.

I can't claim to be highly successful or famous as a scientist, but I did learn very early in my career that it's important to "Be nice to everyone you meet on your way up. You never know who you run into on your way down."
Total agreement.
There has been only 1 person here at AH with whom I’ve been so frustrated with that I’ve dropped a few boxes on. Beyond that, I try to behave online as I would IRL.
A long time ago a friend said to me, “don’t be an @$$hole: nobody likes an @$$hole.”
Probably the best advice I’ve ever been given. ;)
Since then, even as I rose through my culinary career to being an Exec, I’ve always embraced teachable moments over the more common destructive behavior exhibited by my peers. Sometimes it is necessary to tear a person down and rebuild them… but that is a last resort in my opinion.
…But on a forum? As it regards a hobby for most of us?

I come to learn, and pay back the help I’ve received by offering help to others where it is appropriate.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Ninja
Coming from the "Keyboard Cowboy" and "Troll" that we all know you are, that's quite gentlemanly ;).
Indeed, I work quite hard on that! :D

That stays in the Steam Vent, though, but I’m not that fond of willful ignorance, anti-facts and anti-democracy that is so often on display on AH by some members. It drags down this forum.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Warlord
That is a little harsh, though there are members that fit that description. On this forum and on ASR there are many knowledgeable members that helps people without being a lord helmet about it.
Where am I being harsh?

I choose not to participate on ASR because of the behavior I’ve seen there. And on AVS? I’ve started a couple threads to get some help with a few questions I couldn’t get help with here, experiencfirst-hand the belittle-ing visited upon the less knowledgeable.
For me, it’s simple fact based on actual personal experience.

Perhaps I just happened to stumble upon some cat that didn’t know the answer and was having a bad day…
But that doesn’t explain the simple truth that there are many who share the same opinion of AVS. I’ve seen it mentioned here many times by people bracing themselves for similar treatment as it pertains to their question! The difference is, a majority of us here at AH will endeavor to give assistance rather than belittle.
It’s been just over 3yrs that I joined AH, and I’ve seen very little trolling by regular members outside of the Steam Vent. Sure we get some tourists come through for a month or five and stir sh!t up where they can… But they always disappear.
Well, almost always. ;)
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Warlord
Indeed, I work quite hard on that! :D

That stays in the Steam Vent, though, but I’m not that fond of willful ignorance, anti-facts and anti-democracy that is so often on display on AH by some members. It drags down this forum.
And this is why I like you. ;)

Sometimes I think the Steam Vent should be locked to non regular members. Too many just come to play in the sandlot and don’t participate in the forum otherwise.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Ninja
And this is why I like you. ;)

Sometimes I think the Steam Vent should be locked to non regular members. Too many just come to play in the sandlot and don’t participate in the forum otherwise.
Thanks ;)

To some members being pro-facts and pro-democracy is enough to brand someone as a liberal. At least one member has disappointed me in this of whom I thought better of earlier.

I’m sure that many conservatives are unhappy with that branding, or with the current GOP for that matter.

So while ASR have their issues so does AH but different ones: In my time here on AH I’ve had repeated replies/posts in Steam Vent directed towards me that was just vile and odious . Xenophobia by a few members thrives as well. It really galls me to have seen long time members apologizing for essentially not being Americans in their reply to a post telling them they should essentially keep their mouth shut. When someone tries that on me I answer back, like very recently.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
This isn’t the first time Amir at ASR has dumped on a product, without any apparent effort at finding out what might be wrong. Are his methods the problem, or is it the product under review? Based on his reviews, rational conclusions are not easy.
If you compare the measurements of the products that are also measured by Gene, you will find that they are practically the same (with slight variations obviously). Two recent examples: SR8015, Storm Audio ISP MKII. That is not surprising because they both use an AP (just different model, but similar in specs), same methods and incidentally both are degreed EEs.

He certainly seems harsh on product that don't measure anywhere near the so called SOTA level, but he frequently mentioned that the effects of what he considered poor results would not be audible.

I do agree some of the readers tend to make all sorts of comments including some that I consider ridiculous, and may be the site needs a tougher policy. I really don't know what would be considered a good balanced approach though.
 
G

Golfx

Full Audioholic
I am a member of both AH and ASR. I come back for the answers and opinons of the statesman-like Yodas, like PENG, who ALWAYS go out of their way to help us new joins and make us feel comfortable with our level of learning.

Amir is exactly as advertised. Like most of us he is blessed with an ego that must be fed with accomplishments. But without periodic corrective disapproval another desirable human trait, humility, will become lost.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
If you compare the measurements of the products that are also measured by Gene, you will find that they are practically the same (with slight variations obviously). Two recent examples: SR8015, Storm Audio ISP MKII. That is not surprising because they both use an AP (just different model, but similar in specs), same methods and incidentally both are degreed EEs.
Thanks. I'm glad to see examples of lab bench measurements done by both people, with similar results. Thank goodness for small things.
He certainly seems harsh on product that don't measure anywhere near the so called SOTA level, but he frequently mentioned that the effects of what he considered poor results would not be audible.
Considering the responses from the ASR Amen Chorus, they haven't heard that message. Perhaps it was less than audible.
I do agree some of the readers tend to make all sorts of comments including some that I consider ridiculous, and may be the site needs a tougher policy. I really don't know what would be considered a good balanced approach though.
I also don't know what a good balanced approach would be. However, I wouldn't choose the harsh home crowd that populates ASR. It resembles that tough crowd in that old movie Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome.
1639600375924.png


To borrow some EE terms, ASR's signal-to-noise ratio may be a bit lower than desired. But it's that huge noise-to-signal ratio that worries me most.
 
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D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
I'm a member of both sites I had no idea there was so much drama going on until I read that thread at ASR and then heard Gene talk about it over here.

I just told them the same thing I said over here it sucks both sites are arguing because I like both of the sites hopefully you guys get it squashed

I did stick up for us over there on one or 2 things I thought weren't right being said about audioholics diplomatically and I'll do the same for ASR too

ASR has never claimed there measurements are about audibility more about revealing design excellence or revealing any design issues that may be causing the problems

As far as grouchy members stuff like that all audio formats have some of that I've noticed it's a social platform you have to take the bad with the good I guess

Which is why I think Gene's putting the Steam Vent up is such a genius move. You can just slug that stuff out over there and leave the audio stuff to just audio

Anyways I hope both sites work it out they are both great platforms giving us info that most audio platforms will not they both have some really cool members as well
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
To me previews are good for someone who wants to see some detailed specs, price and the front/rear views, without drilling down the manufacturer websites. Some manufacturer websites are not well organized imo, in some cases they seem to make difficult on purpose, to force the readers to spend more time there.:D

Measurements take time for sure, but if you are not too far from GTA/Canada, now that I am sort of retired, I would love to do measurements for you but I don't have an AP and shipping costs may be too much for you.:p
Where are you located? Too bad I can't find local audio engineers in Tampa area.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Overlord
Gene, I thought you were already indicating whether it was a review or preview and was suprised to even hear you mention this. I guess I was doing this automatically all along and knowing the differences. Good for you for catering to the "slower" crowd and getting them off your back.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I will say that I wouldn't use this as an opportunity to bash on ASR or Amir. He is putting in hard work, and he makes a choice to publish measurements when he takes them. This is a very different philosophy from Audioholics that sometimes holds back reviews when they don't measure up. As the thread on ASR shows, when a product has negative results, it leads to people who actually own the product and who have been happy with the product they bought, deciding they don't like it and returning it, because measurements are more important than your ears.

I don't disagree with many of the comments there about any of it. I think a manufacturer who finds a problem with their product should be reaching out quickly to let owner's and potential buyers know what is going on and how they will handle it. Much like a recall on your car, you should be an informed consumer. If ASR hadn't published the numbers would anyone even know about the power problem? If Audioholics is holding on on publishing data, is that helping consumers or the manufacturer? Is it right or wrong? I think that's a very PERSONAL decision and every person will think a bit differently on it.

The takeaway for sure is that Previews need to very differently labeled from any type of reviews. It can be extremely painful when running a website to move content around, but it is something the owners need to consider on every website when something like this comes up and they want to do well by their content readers (us) and their potential sponsors who help pay the bills. Which isn't wrong either.

I am a big fan of buying a product off the shelf and taking my measurements, then letting the numbers be what they are. It isn't always nice to the manufacturer, but once again, it informs the potential buyer and is honest.

A lot of this is not about Audioholics or ASR though, it really is about the product and the manufacturer and how they will respond.

Forums will have loyal participants and fanboys all the time. They also all have those few who really like the rabbit hole they dig into. Most of them are good natured though. I won't rip on any other forums or websites even if I disagree with certain aspects, or members, it isn't the entirety of the site. I will continue to enjoy the honest reviews from any site that delivers them and Audioholics honesty in reviews has remained solid over the years.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Talk about the flip side of the coin.... So here goes:

Even though harsh, the ASR comments held some nuggets that can tweak/improve content here. Never a bad thing and it didn't cost AH any $.

Ultimately I think AH and ASR are complimentary. The implementation, best practice, understanding how it all works, content that Gene, Matt, others provide both here on AH various channels is un-matched. The number of instrumented bench testing of gear at ASR is un-matched.

Put those two together and you will have the largest bang for the buck experience you can get.

One of the cool things that I have to say have come from the ASR approach, and this is a non-commercial plug, is the E1DA Cosmos ADC by member IVX. It's something like $300 and approaches the fidelity of the Audio Precision products.

So for enthusiasts that want to understand more about their own gear have another affordable tool now for at least line level devices.
 
Kvn_Walker

Kvn_Walker

Audioholic Field Marshall
I am on both sites also. ASR's purpose is the seeking of technical/engineering perfection (or as close to it as one can get). Aduioholics caters to beginners on up.

Far as DAC's go, I feel like we are almost at Peak DAC... and the only reviews worth looking at are the bad ones. The comments can be funny.

ASR readers/posters tend to lean heavily towards engineers, so emotion and subjectivity tend to get shot down versus cold hard facts and numbers. They also frequently call out the industry "reviewers" who are nothing more than paid promoters who will never give a bad review as long as the ad dollars keep flowing. (Which unfortunately Gene got mislabeled into this category, hence this discussion)

Both of these sites are good for the industry. I'll often cite ASR reviews as well as AH reviews when I'm at a place like BudgetAudiophile and want to back up my opinions or recommendations.
 
G

Golfx

Full Audioholic
I am member at both websites. I view ASR as having one expert with independent income sources who uses volunteer members to send gear in to be reviewed. I don’t find it warm or inclusive at all. I view audioholics as a bridge between industry and us hobbyist consumers. It’s income sources are from industry advertising, our meager volunteer membership fees and consulting fees. I find audioholics warmer and inclusive and I pay consulting fees to their experts (Matthew Poes in particular) to insure I spend my money wisely. I too find their coexistance complimentary and am happy for both. But Audioholics “is” a library of experts providing honest reviews with the human touch of mentoring. ASR only has a very busy Amir.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
S

snbeall

Enthusiast
Member of both forums. Glad to see the changes being made. The favorable sounding “preview” (that I also actually mistook for a review until the last line) could be misconstrued as complicit otherwise. I agree with comments made by @BMXTRIX and others - this is an egregious manufacturing defect and the lack of transparency on the manufacturer‘s part is the real issue. The lack of response to owners by the manufacturer has them upset and looking for someone to hold accountable. Gene seemed to become the unfortunate recipient by proxy.
 
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gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Gene, I thought you were already indicating whether it was a review or preview and was suprised to even hear you mention this. I guess I was doing this automatically all along and knowing the differences. Good for you for catering to the "slower" crowd and getting them off your back.
I mean I always assumed when the word "Review" wasn't in the page title, and there were no subjective listening impressions, most people would recognize they aren't reviews. Also, if you go to the folder where the contents are, we have reviews on the left column and previews on the right column, as you can see in this example:

I understand that some people think they are all reviews bc they go into a common folder for each category page with "reviews" in the description.

No worries, we made the distinction more clear now. The handful of haters on ASR are unlikely to change their views towards Audioholics and that's ok too. They are welcome to go there and converse but I don't have to put up with that bullshit on my own forum since I pay the bills here :)
 
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