Shek5150

Shek5150

Audioholic
Greetings,

I realize that I'm new to these forums & I don't think I'm violating any 'forum protocol' (hope not anyway) . . . but I wanted to share the following . . . as I found it interesting.

I realize that most of you guys (particularly those of you that have achieved the audioholic etherial levels of existence) . . . & it may verge on heresy; but check out the link below to my local BestBuy's Magnolia store. The entire store was completely renovated over the past several months and the Magnolia store JUST opened his past Saturday w/ dedicated Magnolia staff . . . again, I realize that most of you do not shop at these brick & mortar stores . . . but none the less, I think it's impressive that they've considerably stepped up their product line (IMO).

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?p=6723398&posted=1#post6723398


Side Note: Perhaps the humor may be lost on others; but for me, the quote in my signature block is 'absolutely reflective of my search for the best sound that my ears can appreciate.... seems like it's in a constant state of motion' . . .

I've very recently begun building my own AV/HT room (at least the best I can in a rental unit) w/ the help of many of you (in particular FirstReflection, Adam & the SVS SB13 Ultra reviews by: Adam, PB, & EgoVector) . . . so, in the past couple months I've purchased the following:

Denon AVR-4311ci
Paradigm Studio 100s, v5; CC-690 & ADP-590 (for better or worse on the latter)
SVS-SB13 Ultra . .. ***If interested, SVS has dropped their price on this unit; back to the pre-rder price of $1,499)***
APC J25B
Blah, blah, blah (the above are the only recent purchases to my current system). . .

In any case, I only share that to say, I've been very happy w/ my current set up (even knowing that I've still got a lot of tweaking to do) . . . that was until I went to this Magnolia Opening . . . when you go to the link above and see their "High End" room w/ the McIntosh & B&W gear . . . It really did sound much better than what I recently purchased . . . (I think you'll know which set-up when you see the pics). . . I had a moment of envy, followed by sadness, followed by the 'rationalization' of "Well, at least I didn't have to sell my truck & the wife's car to afford our current gear . . . (((none of which the wife has seen since she's been out of the country for the past 6 months . . . I may have some explaining to do upon her return :eek:)))

In closing, be sure to check out the pics at the beginning & the end of that post (the pics are better at the end of the thread). . .

Regards,

Shek5150
 
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j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Magnolia is still just Best Buy in shiny packaging, though they do carry some decent gear. They bought Magnolia and that was not good for Magnolia; it was a decent store before that.

Even with the 4311, I'd probably still get an amp for the 100s.
 
Shek5150

Shek5150

Audioholic
J_Garcia . . .

Magnolia is still just Best Buy in shiny packaging, though they do carry some decent gear. They bought Magnolia and that was not good for Magnolia; it was a decent store before that.

Even with the 4311, I'd probably still get an amp for the 100s.
J-Garcia,

Hey there . . . I appreciate what you're saying regarding the relationship between the two entities . . . & I haven't myself made a big ticket purchase from bestbuy in 2 or 3 years; but at that time I did buy my Samsung UN55C8000 LED TV and they did price match my online price (saved $800). But other than that . . .nada. I was just really impressed w/ the B&W 803D & MacIntosh setup . . .

Regarding my 4311, I do appreciate your point regarding the amp (as few others have also suggested it . . . ) . . . I'm just at a point where (as a previous poster stated) "My financial sphincter has froze up for the moment :eek:". But when I do start that process, I (like yourself) will look into the Emotiva amps . . . seems like they come really well recommended.

In any case, thanks for the reply & thoughts.

Shek5150
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Yeah, not knocking Magnolia, they are OK. Best Buy bought them just to get the higher end manufacturers under their umbrella to expand their market beyond the bottom end audio gear; because they more or less closed all the Magnolia stores once they bought them. I used to shop at Magnolia a lot - bought a few TVs from them, even after BB bought them, but before they close the local store.

You can probably get away without an amp if you don't do very loud listening or if your room isn't large, but those guys are a pretty demanding speaker.
 
J

Jeff R.

Audioholic General
Surf Ebay for used amps....you can steal some good amps that are a little older and still perform very well.

I picked up the Adcom amp in my Sig for about $125 and have run tower speakers and now my subwoofer.
 
Shek5150

Shek5150

Audioholic
Emotiva Amp

Jeff R & J Garcia, I notice that u both sport the Same Emotiva amp, how do u both like it?
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
I can't say this for 100% certain, but a portion, at least, of the sound that you preferred when you heard the B&W + McIntosh setup at Magnolia was the room acoustics, not just the speakers and amps.

This happens all the time. Folks attribute the sound they hear to the speakers and amps only. When they hear something they like better, they assume they need to buy new speakers or new amps. That thinking makes sense on the face of it. But it's often not the case.

I like to make an analogy:

Imagine you have a very good TV that you're trying to watch. But there's a guy shining a flashlight directly into your eyes the whole time!

What makes more sense?

Buy a new TV?

Or get rid of the guy with the flashlight?

This is the case with audio as well. You can have very good speakers and amps, but the room acoustics are the guy with the flashlight. Strangely though, most folks assume the solution is to buy new speakers - try to overpower the flashlight with a brighter TV - rather than getting rid of the real problem!

You Paradigm speakers are good speakers. The 4311 is a very capable AV Receiver. While there's no question that the B&W speakers sound different, and you might, in fact, prefer their sound regardless, attributing ALL of your preference to just the speakers might be a mistake. The Magnolia demo rooms tend to be treated - at least the ones I've seen. They've got padding and carpeting on the walls, and a drop ceiling with acoustic ceiling tiles. Compare that with the hard, flat drywall, glass and hardwood floors in many homes, and you've got that guy with the flashlight at home, acoustically speaking, but he's not there at the Magnolia store! No wonder things sound better in the store!

;)
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Jeff R & J Garcia, I notice that u both sport the Same Emotiva amp, how do u both like it?
I've had mine for close to 2yrs now and I love it. My speakers are 4ohm and my room is large.
 
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J

Jeff R.

Audioholic General
Solid amp!!

Jeff R & J Garcia, I notice that u both sport the Same Emotiva amp, how do u both like it?
It is a great Amp!!! I bought mine used on this site. It was a good experience. It really improved my sound from my towers which are very difficult to power.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Yeah, the Emotiva XPA-3 is a good'un ;)

It's amazing what avoiding the 100% markup of a retail store can do for value :p

The ATI AT1803 is very much in the same ballpark performance wise. And that's not surprising since the XPA-3 and AT1803 wholesale for almost the exact same price. The dealer markup puts the AT1803 at $1600 MSRP though.

Paradigm's Anthem brand has the very nice MCA 30. Truth be told, Anthem makes some of my favorite amps. They are DEAD silent - virtually no noise floor at all - which is something I really pay attention to. I HATE any sort of noise floor. Bugs the hell out of me when I can hear that faint "hiss" when everything is turned on but nothing is playing :p

So the MCA 30 has a tiny advantage there, and it can cope with punishing 2 ohm loads better. But then the MSRP hits: $2500 :eek: And it's like, does it sound $1800 better than the XPA-3?! Absolutely not! Not even close.

So that's why Emotiva gets such high praise. There can still be better amps. But they're just exponentially more expensive. To the point that you can very realistically start looking at using nothing but Emotiva's XPA-1 monoblock amps for every channel and still be in the same ballpark price wise! And I'd put the XPA-1 up against almost any other amps out there.

I've seen folks who can't make sense of it - who figure there must be something "wrong" with the Emotiva amps since they're so much less expensive. But it's just a combination of basically selling them at the wholesale price directly to consumers, and having all the manufacturing done in China. The ATI AT1803 is a comparable amp, but there's a 100% dealer mark up. The Anthem MCA 30 is comparable, but it's made in North America and there's the dealer mark up. So it's not crazy to directly compare the XPA-3 to those amps! Not at all :)
 
Shek5150

Shek5150

Audioholic
Room acoustics . . .

I can't say this for 100% certain, but a portion, at least, of the sound that you preferred when you heard the B&W + McIntosh setup at Magnolia was the room acoustics, not just the speakers and amps.

This happens all the time. Folks attribute the sound they hear to the speakers and amps only. When they hear something they like better, they assume they need to buy new speakers or new amps. That thinking makes sense on the face of it. But it's often not the case.

;)
FirstReflection,

I hear you and certainly believe what you're saying regarding the room acoustical treatments; as a matter of fact, there are guys on this forum (and other forums) that feel VERY strongly about this . . . because I'm just getting my feet into these waters . . . I'm still at the educational step . . . (makes sense in theory to me; but I have no experience w/ these issues) . . .

This is a link to the folks that designed the acoustical treatment for Magnolia:

Magnolia Audio Video | Acoustic Geometry

Which is interesting to me, because the layout on this link looks EXACTLY like the set-up I saw in the Magnolia demo room . . .

So, all that to say, I probably overstated my position regarding my listening pleasure coming just from the "McIntosh & B&W's" . . . I'm clearly not as precise in all things AV/HT. But agree w/ your statements . . . Regarding those B&W 803Ds, I really did like their sound . . .that was until they played a 'horn selection' . . . it was ridiculously harsh to my ears . . .and these are neophyte ears . . . but up to that point I was pleased w/ them.

You Paradigm speakers are good speakers. The 4311 is a very capable AV Receiver. While there's no question that the B&W speakers sound different, and you might, in fact, prefer their sound regardless, attributing ALL of your preference to just the speakers might be a mistake. The Magnolia demo rooms tend to be treated - at least the ones I've seen. They've got padding and carpeting on the walls, and a drop ceiling with acoustic ceiling tiles. Compare that with the hard, flat drywall, glass and hardwood floors in many homes, and you've got that guy with the flashlight at home, acoustically speaking, but he's not there at the Magnolia store! No wonder things sound better in the store!

;)
Regarding my current (evolving) set up w/ the Paradigms . . . I am truly pleased w/ them . . . and some source material sound pretty amazing to me; while others . . . not so much . . . (((but in the end, it occurred to me that 'crap music is still crap music' . . . which is a shame; because some of my favorite music is 'crap-music' . . . if that makes sense)))

Regarding the Magnolia demo room, I guess I was really just impressed w/ that demo room in it's entirety . . .
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Yes, I've found that getting folks "over the hump" of paying for acoustic treatments to be one of the more difficult aspects of this hobby. It doesn't help that so many forum members trumpet very loudly that speakers make the most difference when it comes to the sound that you hear. I will agree that of all the gear, speakers make the most difference - more difference than, say, amplifiers. But my position has long been that the room itself makes the most difference, followed by the speakers ;)

Obviously, when someone comes asking for advice and they only have $500 to spend, all of that budget is going to go towards speakers and a receiver. They'll have to live with whatever room acoustics they have. You can't make sound from literally nothing, so they have to spend the money they have on the equipment that actually produces sound! :p

But once you have a larger budget, addressing your room's acoustics should be a top priority. Not an afterthought. Sadly, acoustic panels just aren't "sexy" :p Speakers and amps are like AV porn. But acoustic panels are just rectangles that you hang on the wall.

It makes things even worse when people still picture those hiddeous "egg crate" or "wedge" foam panels as the only sort of acoustic treatments they know of. And even if they know about panels from the likes of GiK Acoustics, Acoustimac, and ATS Acoustics, there's often still a WAF problem, as plain, 4 inch thick panels are often considered too ugly for the decorating committee ;) Lots of folks don't know about the "Art" printed panels that are available now. They're a terrific way to kill two birds with one stone! Most people like to hang some sort of decoration on the walls anyway. Posters, artwork, pictures - something along those lines. You can have any image you like printed on acoustic panels these days, so that's very often the best way to make everybody happy! But the printed panels are more expensive. Still, if you were going to purchase artwork, they can be less expensive than a lot of printed artwork.

But the simple truth is that I would rather use the Pioneer Andrew Jones speakers that go for around $100-$125 per tower and about $100-$125 for each pair of bookshelf speakers or for the Center speaker. I'd rather spend $400 on a 5 speaker set of those speakers and then spend around $2000 on acoustic treatments, than spend all $2400 just on speakers, but use them in a bad acoustic environment.

There are going to be a lot of people who call me utterly insane for having that opinion. And will entirely grant you that if your acoustic environment is decent, I would, of course, rather spend the full $2400 on speakers alone. But my point is that the acoustics make just as much if not more difference than the speakers. To the point that I would much rather have good speakers in a well treated environment, than great speakers in a poor environment.

I think that, because you don't plug them in, and because all they do is hang on your wall, folks don't inherently understand the value of acoustic treatments. They don't even enter into the list of things to buy for a lot of people. And if I bring them up, they get shoved to the very bottom of the "to do" list. They get relegated to the realm of "tweaks" and "optimization".

But they ought to be fundamental. It's your room, for goodness sake! It's the largest component of your audio system by a huge margin! It's a bit like how people forget that our skin is our largest organ ;)

Anyways, my point is, once you can afford great speakers, great subwoofers and great AV Receivers, paying attention to your room's acoustics should be at the very top of your list, not the bottom. Folks go looking for better speakers, better amps, better cables, etc. etc. Meanwhile, I'm over here screaming, "the room, the room, the room!" :p
 
Shek5150

Shek5150

Audioholic
Reply to FirstReflection . . .

Yes, I've found that getting folks "over the hump" of paying for acoustic treatments to be one of the more difficult aspects of this hobby. It doesn't help that so many forum members trumpet very loudly that speakers make the most difference when it comes to the sound that you hear. I will agree that of all the gear, speakers make the most difference - more difference than, say, amplifiers. But my position has long been that the room itself makes the most difference, followed by the speakers . . . . . .

But once you have a larger budget, addressing your room's acoustics should be a top priority. Not an afterthought. Sadly, acoustic panels just aren't "sexy" :p Speakers and amps are like AV porn. But acoustic panels are just rectangles that you hang on the wall.

...And even if they know about panels from the likes of GiK Acoustics, Acoustimac, and ATS Acoustics, there's often still a WAF problem, as plain, 4 inch thick panels are often considered too ugly for the decorating committee ;) Lots of folks don't know about the "Art" printed panels that are available now...
I can appreciate your point above & I'm not opposed to addressing this issue . . . I just need to understand it better before spending the money on it . . . my wife recently purchased a hand-knotted silk area rug and she paid far more for it than I did for all of my recent AV gear combined (Denon AVR-4311, Paradigm 100s, CC-690, ADP-590s, SVS SB13 Ultra & the APC unit) . . . I say that to say, and all this rug does is rests on the floor (in front of the AV gear though) . . . so, I'm clearly okay w/ something of value having a subdued function in a high profile room like an AV/HT room . . . but again, it all comes down to education & familiarization--- of which I have neither regarding the acoustical treatments.

And as far as the multitude of options in this area; I had a very narrow view of the options until I saw the few rooms at the Magnolia Store . . . they had many of the geometric shapes (as seen in the high end room); but they also had some of the printed 'art work' panels in their dedicated theater room . . . they had other measures as well . . . but my point being, I wasn't even aware of the variety of options until very recently.

I think that, because you don't plug them in, and because all they do is hang on your wall, folks don't inherently understand the value of acoustic treatments. They don't even enter into the list of things to buy for a lot of people. And if I bring them up, they get shoved to the very bottom of the "to do" list. They get relegated to the realm of "tweaks" and "optimization".
I would say the above is very true; when's the last time you could go into a "Magnolia Type Store" and experienced two demo rooms w/ identical equipment (1) w/ ideal acoustical treatments & (2) one w/ out acoustical treatments; but rather just standard home decor type 'stuff'. In this sense, I'm probably like most people (again, I'm not speaking to the very experienced folks) and have never experienced the acoustical treatments . . . heck you can go from demo room to demo room checking out as many AVRs, pre-pros, amps, speakers, 'durgolators' . .. but not acoustical treatments.

Anyways, my point is, once you can afford great speakers, great subwoofers and great AV Receivers, paying attention to your room's acoustics should be at the very top of your list, not the bottom. Folks go looking for better speakers, better amps, better cables, etc. etc.
Well, I'm definitely not looking to replace anything . . . & though I'd like an amp someday; it wouldn't really be practical to my stacked row-house living style here in the DC area . . .

Meanwhile, I'm over here screaming, "the room, the room, the room!" is on fire . .. we don't need no water let the M*********** burn. . . :p
I couldn't help referencing the Bloodhound Gang . . . I instantly thought of that song w/ your closing statement . . . okay, perhaps I've been on this laptop tooooo long . . .

p.s., I'll look into those acoustical treatment suppliers you cited earlier . . .

p.s.s., What is an "WAF Problem" . . ?

Thanks always FirstReflection for your well thought out & crafted replies . . . ☮

 
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F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
One of the first episodes on the Home Theater Geeks Podcast had a good interview with the founder of PMI

The acoustical treatments talk starts a ways in - they talk about 3D for a while first - but there are some good escriptions that might help to convince you ;)

GiK has some fun, animated videos on YouTube, as well.

Much like decoupling though, nothing matches just hearing the difference for yourself ;)
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
Denon AVR-4311ci
Paradigm Studio 100s, v5; CC-690 & ADP-590 (for better or worse on the latter)
SVS-SB13 Ultra . .. ***If interested, SVS has dropped their price on this unit; back to the pre-rder price of $1,499)***
APC J25B


Shek5150
Here is your problem, only a fool with bad ears pick Paradigm, SVS and Denon.

Take a look at my system and try to copy it if you want good sound.





I even tried this for a while:


Then I got a second Ultra:




I finally gave up trying to make a perfect HT room out of an Open concept living area and went back to one sub. All in all it's a very nice sounding system, it just will never be perfect since it's not a sealed room.

Once my 73" DLP went out, I switched over to a Panny plasma since I already had 2 of them in other parts of the house and have always been impressed with them



Oh...and just for the record, Studio 100's love power as they dip into the low 3 ohm range. Contrary to popular opinion, you can even tell at low levels that proper power opens these way up.
 
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Shek5150

Shek5150

Audioholic
One of the first episodes on the Home Theater Geeks Podcast had a good interview with the founder of PMI

The acoustical treatments talk starts a ways in - they talk about 3D for a while first - but there are some good escriptions that might help to convince you ;)

GiK has some fun, animated videos on YouTube, as well.

Much like decoupling though, nothing matches just hearing the difference for yourself ;)
Thanks FR, I'll definitely check them out . . . (((Side Note: I Skype w/ my wife pretty much daily & when I tell her of our communications, or any of my interactions on these forums, she's very perplexed . . . as it is completely contrary to my nature . . . in any case, I'm sure I get much more from our interactions than do you . . . thanks always))). . .

p.s., my replacement ADP J25B showed up today and I popped it in . . . and we have lift off . . .isn't that something. It was a back coax in/out port . . . I didn't have to finagle w/ it at all . . . plugged every thing in and powered it up and BAM BABY!!! . . .

Anyway, thanks again . . .
 
Shek5150

Shek5150

Audioholic
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg . . .

Thanks for the post . . . so, is the last pic your current setup? If so, could you tell me more about the panels behind your mains? I'm pretty ignorant to acoustic treatments & was wondering if that's what those were & if so, why did you leave them off your final setup? I'm only now beginning to look into these acoustic treatment measures . . .

Also, I would like to someday get an external amp (& the Emotiva's seem to come highly recommended); however, I live in VERY closed quarters in the DC area (stacked row housing style); so, I was going to forego the amp for the moment as I have an FBI agent on one side of me and a Teacher on the other . . .and one would probably send me to jail and the other to the principals office if I were to bring an amp into the house . . . but I do expect to get one (particularly when we move from this place) . . . we move'd 10 times in 17 years; so, I expect to be moving again soon. . .

Again, thanks for your pics . . . it is funny, but my setup looks strangely similar to yours . . . except for the big mess I just made switching out my ADP unit . . . perhaps I'll post a pic (if I figure out how to) . ..

Later & thanks again . . . (p.s., love the wood floors . . .).
 
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ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
ParadigmDawg . . .

Thanks for the post . . . so, is the last pic your current setup? If so, could you tell me more about the panels behind your mains? I'm pretty ignorant to acoustic treatments & was wondering if that's what those were & if so, why did you leave them off your final setup? I'm only now beginning to look into these acoustic treatment measures . . .

Also, I would like to someday get an external amp (& the Emotiva's seem to come highly recommended); however, I live in VERY closed quarters in the DC area (stacked row housing style); so, I was going to forego the amp for the moment as I have an FBI agent on one side of me and a Teacher on the other . . .and one would probably send me to jail and the other to the principals office if I were to bring an amp into the house . . . but I do expect to get one (particularly when we move from this place) . . . we move'd 10 times in 17 years; so, I expect to be moving again soon. . .

Again, thanks for your pics . . . it is funny, but my setup looks strangely similar to yours . . . except for the big mess I just made switching out my ADP unit . . . perhaps I'll post a pic (if I figure out how to) . ..

Later & thanks again . . . (p.s., love the wood floors . . .).
Our room is so open and lively, I decided I had to have acoustic panels. Hands down, it made the biggest improvement of any upgrade I have ever done. I placed two large 4" panels behind the speakers, 1 at each side, at the first reflection point and 2 at the back of the room.

I made a deal with my wife that I would take them down anytime we had company come over as she hated them. Well we have company all the time especially in the summer and I got tired of moving them. When we had our house repainted I just left them off and actually gave 2 of them to Alex and I gave Andrew 2 of them, I think I have 2 up in the attic.

I purchase 2 of mine form GIK with some custom wood frames and made the others with Ready Acoustic frames and some mineral wool.

Chameleon C2

Here's an old thread talking about my panels:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/general-av-discussions/40246-gik-class-act-company.html





I hope you know I was kidding about your system since I have 100's, SVS and Denon AVR.

Sorry, the pictures have various gear and furniture as it took me a few tries to get everything to my liking.

BTW, WAF is wife acceptance factor...
 
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Shek5150

Shek5150

Audioholic
ParadigmDawg,

Thanks for reply. . . I'm reading your post (while stand with other parents at the bus stop) and your comment about your wife & the panels made me laugh out loud. (Hence the strange looks from the other parents)

In any case, I did appreciate your humor (& your setup). Thanks for the links I'll check them out. Please pardon any typos, never posted from my iPhone before. Thanks again.
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
ParadigmDawg,

Thanks for reply. . . I'm reading your post (while stand with other parents at the bus stop) and your comment about your wife & the panels made me laugh out loud. (Hence the strange looks from the other parents)

In any case, I did appreciate your humor (& your setup). Thanks for the links I'll check them out. Please pardon any typos, never posted from my iPhone before. Thanks again.
That goes back to WAF...

WAF= Wife Acceptance Factor
 
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