Audio Cables Science or Religion?

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Dear Everyone,

I am writing from Hungary and I tried to follow your discussion about cables. I would like to tell you that we (together with my friends) have developed a totally new cable technology based on new physics! It means that this cable seems to be the best of the world as we haven't found any better one to compete with! We do have interconnect and speaker cable as well, as we use the same technology in both cable type. This cable is a result of a 20 year hard-working, developing and brainstorming. We are ready for any comparison test as we are sure of our truth! The difference between the &quot;usual&quot; cables and our cable is so big that you will firstly don't believe your ears! The technolgy is for sale and it works everywhere where cables are used between electronic euipment!
If someone is interrested in revolutionary technology, please contact: tagaigabor@vnet.hu   tel: +3620-320-6998  
Bye!
Gabor</font>

 

[audioengr]

<font color='#000000'>nutz wrote:
<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One example is to say that capacitance is irrelevant since resistance is all that matters. &nbsp;Basically what we are trying to achieve is the least coloration possible. &nbsp;Colorations from cables in 4 different ways:

resistance
inductance
capacitance
interference (of any sort)</td></tr></table>

Well, you forgot one important one, that is dielectric absorption. &nbsp;This is why bare-wire interconnects sound so good and also why polystyrene capacitors sound better than the other types.

Also, these parametrics are not all important in all cases. &nbsp;In the case of interconnects capacitance and dielectric absorption dominate. &nbsp;In the case of speaekr cables, inductance, resistance and dielectric absorption dominate. &nbsp;The other parameters cause second-order effects. &nbsp;All it takes is a few SPICE simulations to demonstrate this.</font>

 

[Irvrobinson]

I think the situation is worse than even you think, Gene. I was browsing the discussion forums on Audiogon and found that people believe there are audible differences between properly functioning electrical outlets! I was shocked. I've read the power cord nonsense for years, but outlets? I asked people what they thought there could be audible differences between outlets, and the replies were simply fascinating. Many people believed factors that would cause audible differences either couldn't be measured, or involved factors that were not understood by our notions of the behaviors of 120VAC electricity. Ultimately I was told to "shut up", "go away", and I was called closed-minded and unscientific. Audiogon stopped accepting my posts on three different threads! I was amazed. I just wondered how such differences could occur.

I can almost understand how someone with no basic knowledge of electricity could be led to think that similar, well-designed interconnects or speaker cables can be audibly different. At least they're in the signal path, and they have some measurable differences. But electrical outlets? Now I've heard it all.

I think you guys are doing the hobby a great service by going through the trouble to actually run tests (however inconsequential the measured differences might be) and explain the technical aspects of cable theory in understandable form. Personally, I think the biggest problem we have in audio (and video) is not the snake oil from manufacturers, it is from people that want to hear differences in everything, whether valid or not, because it's just plain more exciting. Do you blame drug dealers or the users that demand it? I've come to the conclusion that snake oil cable vendors really are just responding to market demand.

 

[gene]

Irvrobinson;

Thanks for your kind words and vote of confidence. Its difficult some times to sift through whats real and whats marketing. Its even worse when review publications endorse the marketing nonsense as truth and futher confuse consumers. We do our best to keep it real and always look for other audioholics to help us pursue the truth in audio!

 

[Steve1000]

I'm glad to see you didn't use the cable believer vs. religion analogy in the article.

Religion at least makes an attempt to provide explanations and values for subjects not, or at least not yet, adequately accounted for by science. Religion provides at the very least a mythical and ethical framework for matters that are as of yet not entirely within our analytical comprehension. Science edges in on religion slowly.

By comparison, from an intellectual point of view, expensive cables are nothing but entirely trivial lies and nonsense that are totally inconsistent with what is already well-understood by science. "Cable belief," so to speak, is a useless doctrine other than for purposes of making money off of some folks who lack an adequate understanding of a very difficult subject (electronics) and who perhaps have a weakness for wanting the best equipment for a sense of status or, more sadly and innocently, just for the passion for having the best sound possible. It is, in short, an intellectual fraud.

It's nice to see the audioholics board getting a little more traffic -- it's a little harder to draw a crowd when your stock in trade is "pursuing the truth."

<font color='#000000'>I have just written a new article that discusses how different people view cables. &nbsp;Please join in the discussion and feel free to add your take.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtip....ce.html</font>

 

[gene]

Steve you should be writing for us Whats your background?

 

[Steve1000]

You're most kind.

I don't discuss my "background" while discussing hot-button issues on internet chatboards. Feel free to PM me if you're truly interested.

Steve you should be writing for us Whats your background?

 

[Irvrobinson]

Here's a question for you Gene...

I was exchanging email with someone reading the threads I mentioned earlier on Audiogon, where I was apparently censored, and he asked a very interesting question. His position was that I was posting opinions that were in direct conflict with the philosophy of people known to be affiliated with Audiogon. To quote his email, "Would Audioholics continue to accept postings from people that asserted cables and power cords and outlets made an audible difference, and subjective testing was enough to prove it?" His guess is that you would not, and that, therefore, my expectations are unreasonable with Audiogon. Would you censor postings that run counter to your philosophy?

Irv

 

[MDS]

I think it's obvious the answer is no. See the 'Dogmatism in science' thread. Lots of proponents of pseudo-science and unsubstantiated subjective reasoning (to me at least, because I agree with the objective, scientific side).

Audioholics has not censored the thread in any way. They just let the heated debate continue as long as personal attacks are minimized.

 

[gene]

His guess is that you would not, and that, therefore, my expectations are unreasonable with Audiogon. Would you censor postings that run counter to your philosophy?

We only censor threads when people become offensive or rude towards others, or they debate politics and religion, or they spam our forums. We welcome all viewpoints regardless if we disagree. This is a democratic website

I don't understand why some folks continually think we don't believe sonic differences in cables exist. We clearly state they do, but with only poorly designed cables.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I don't understand why some folks continually think we don't believe sonic differences in cables exist. We clearly state they do, but with only poorly designed cables.

Gene, with all due respect, you know that real issue is that many audiophiles believe that are audible differences between properly designed cables (and outlets and plugs), and that is the basis of their issue with your (our, actually) position. So it strikes me as a bit disingenuous to state you believe there are audible differences, but wait... only if there we're discussing poor designs. I think EVERYONE is willing to believe that poor design sometimes causes audible side effects.

Nonetheless, I am heartened by your posting policies. For those of you that want you to entertained (or appalled - both will happen) try browsing the Audiogon forum. I think I'll hang around here for awhile.

 

[jaxvon]

I would also like to add that when Gene says "poorly designed", he's most likely speaking about Esoteric cables that are marketed and thought of by many as being well designed and superior, when in actuality they are a hinderance in the system. Such an example of this is the Goertz cable from the first Speaker Cable Faceoff. It actually started rolling off frequencies before 20kHz. That, and if I recall correctly, it required a Zobel network to function properly. No one would want that kind of garbage in his or her system (if they knew it did that).

 

[Irvrobinson]

[Note to self - proof-read before you post. Your grammar was atrocious in that last one.]

Jaxvon, I agree. But pity the poor cable vendors! When zip cord performs so well you must have to look really different to convince people there's an audible difference.

Frankly, I'm most fascinated by the fixation on power cords and outlets. Did you know you can pay $180 for a single power outlet? I have trouble hearing differences between good quality CD players, and some folks think swapping 12 gauge power cords can dramatically change how a system sounds! Can anyone think of how this would occur?

In retrospect, perhaps I was a bit harsh on Gene. I suppose one can go out of one's way to produce visible differences (the Goertz is a good example), with the result being cables that actually perform poorly enough to be audibly different. I reluctantly stand corrected.

 

[jaxvon]

Yeah, I'm appalled by the power cord and outlet thing too. I actually started a thread on the outlet thing because I was so amazed. I was surfing Parts Express (great place, no BS) when I found they were selling a WattGate "Audio Grade" duplex outlet for something like $120. I don't blame PE for selling it, but I was just amazed that people would pay for that. What's even better is that the contacts are gold plated. It makes sense for interconnects, but considering how much duplex outlets get used, it's just stupid. If you really, REALLY want to see some crazy stuff, check out JPS Labs. They sell a $3500 power cord and also some rediculously expensive outlets.

What's sad is that people seem to think that a power cord will act like a power conditioner, when that's just not true.

Oh well. At least people here can see the light!

 

[Transducergeek]

How about a little debunking, eh?

I hear more of a "difference" in sound, if I listen to music when I wake up in the morning, versus the evening period for listening. I hear a "difference" whether the lights are on or off. I also hear a "difference" if I had a glass of wine before listening or no wine before... What I am saying is, the psychological effects of the "experience" is contributing to the "sound" also. I dare say perhaps more than speaker wire and RCA cables that cost 1400 percent more than some others you might buy for, say, 75 cents a foot?

I owned and engineered as a full time carrer in my recording studio for over 10 years in the 70's, and I know none of the hundreds of yards of mic cables and console wiring or patch panel TRS connectons or Mastering Tape decks, had any of this exotic "silver soldered" or "Pure copper oxygen free wire" used in their fabrication. And still, myself and my recording friends around Los Angeles in the 60's and 70's achieved some of the greatest sounding recordings ever made. How did we do that without all the "magic" wire interconnects? I can tell you how, THEY DON'T MATTER!!! A few measley inches of wire at line level from a preamp to power amp hardly matters at all..... How many dozens of Yards of "low grade" cable did the low level signal go through before it got to the studio mic preamp, then at line level to the tape deck, back to the console for mixing then to the 2 channel tape deck for recording then to the play deck to the disc cutting mastering lathe facility all that before it gets to, let alone leaves your preamp? ... What does matter? Mics matter, Preamps matter, well set up decks matter, good tape matters, exotic, expensive ultra special Silver Cables don't matter, ... But people hear what they want to believe they hear..... The end....

 

[MDS]

I hear more of a "difference" in sound, if I listen to music when I wake up in the morning, versus the evening period for listening. I hear a "difference" whether the lights are on or off. I also hear a "difference" if I had a glass of wine before listening or no wine before... What I am saying is, the psychological effects of the "experience" is contributing to the "sound" also. I dare say perhaps more than speaker wire and RCA cables that cost 1400 percent more than some others you might buy for, say, 75 cents a foot?

So very true and often overlooked by the 'wire matters' crowd. The psychological factors play a far greater role in what we pereceive than the technical aspects of cabling.

Note also that over time your ears adapt to the sound anyway. I have one CD that I had made from an LP before I had the equipment and know-how to do it myself. This music is long out of print and now that I have alot more experience with digital audio, I know they did a lousy job. However, I have adjusted to the sound and don't mind hearing it - I'd rather have a less-than-perfect copy of music I like than no copy at all and that is the difference between an audio enthusiast and an 'audiophile'.

 

[Creeping Death]

I really dislike the tactics some of these companies use to market their wares(ie.Monster cable). Now I am by no means a true Audioholic but I like my music and home theatre even if it is on an aging Technics amp with just the old Dolby prologic surround sound on mismatched speakers. Any way I was in one of those Big box stores about a year ago and they had a display set up with a DVD player, and some sort of splitter running to a wide screen TV, the screen was split in to two parts straight down the middle and was supposed to be showing the difference between the almighty Monster cable and just a generic cable. Now you could clearly tell the difference between the two halves of the screen, one side was visually a cleaner picture than the other which had what I would call pixel crawl (don't know if that is the correct technical term, but you know what I mean) especially on flat edges and text. So I decided to take a closer look and I think everyone interested in reading this forum knows what I found, one side was hooked up to an S-video Monster cable and the other was hooked up to a generic composite cable. That is almost bordering on criminal! We all know for a fact that if they had hooked up one Monster S-video and one generic S-video cable that say came bundled with your last video card to that splitter you most defiantly would not see the difference unless the generic one was of VERY poor quality.
The problem is that people are willing to believe demonstrations like this because they are uninformed but they can see the difference. Now if that $40 or $50 cable makes that much difference on the TV it must make that much difference on that brand new stereo they want you to buy complete with a couple of hundred dollars worth of Monster Cables, right? I don't think so!
Great site.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...I So I decided to take a closer look and I think everyone interested in reading this forum knows what I found, one side was hooked up to an S-video Monster cable and the other was hooked up to a generic composite cable. That is almost bordering on criminal! ...

I don't see it bordering but crossing the border of criminality.

Thanks for sharing. Another good reason to despise Monster

 

[Sean Oconnell]

Cable Test 10khz
Interconnects

BJC LC-1 3ft
cap: 44pf
ind: 0.62uH
ohm: 0.589

AR master series 6ft
cap: 160pf
ind: 1.5uH
ohm: 0.15

AR performance series 3ft
cap: 90pf
Ind: 0.75uH
ohm: 0.117

AR master series comp 3ft
cap: 63pf
Ind: 0.4uH
ohm:0.030

AR master series comp 6ft
cap: 113pf
Ind: 0.7uH
ohm: 0.049

Wireworld Luna 1.5ft
cap: 145pF
ind: 0.3uH
ohm: 0.116

Wireworld solstice 1.5ft
cap:160pF
ind: 0.28uH
ohm: 0.107

Audioquest Chicago 1.5ft
cap: 64.5pF
ind: 0.46uH
ohm: 0.058

Monster 300mk2 3ft
cap: 114pF
ind: 0.86uH
ohm: 0.121

Belkin pureav blue 3ft
cap: 120pF
ind: 0.76uH
ohm: 0.16

Monster m1000comp DIY 1.5ft
cap: 30pf
ind: 0.26uH
ohm: 0.021

Mogami 2534 2ft
cap: 110pF
ind: 0.29uH
ohm: 0.043

Cable Test 10khz
Speaker Cable

Auvio 12-2 7ft
cap: 117pf
ind 1.6uH
ohm: 0.024

NVX 12-2 8ft
cap: 158pf
ind: 1.7uH
ohm: 0.025

Knukonceptz 10-2 clear 6ft
cap: 152pf
ind: 1.22uH
ohm: 0.014

Knukonceptz 10-2 blue 3ft
cap: 60pf
ind: 0.59uH
ohm: 0.005

Stinger 10-2 4ft
cap: 73pf
ind: 0.71uH
ohm: 0.006

Monster xp 16-2 8ft
cap: 118pf
ind:1.77uH
ohm: 0.076

Belden 10-2 6ft
cap: 142pf
ind: 0.88uH
ohm: 0.01


I have performed these test with a Japan made DER EE DE-5000 lcr meter where inductance and resistance was one end shorted one end tested and capacitance was one side open and one side tested on these test were done at 10khz in the audible range and the numbers were similar with 1khz and 120hz but the 10khz was more detailed i included DIY cables where I shortened a monster component cable and put on new connectors and one from mogami2534 mic cable

 

[Speedskater]

It's always good to have real measurements of real cables.
Could you normalize them to values per foot or meter?