Audible Difference $3000 To $20,000?

[jostenmeat]

Respectfully, the violin is a perfect example that negates the point of AcuDefTechGuy. Over the decades many builders have tried to copy the sound of a Stradivarius, going so far as to use the same strings, etc. but no designer has been able to match it.

I watched an old B/W documentary on Heifetz many years ago. I remember they took his Guarneri del Gesu, chemically analyzed the varnish, and recreated the violin to 1/1000th of an inch. It still didn't sound the same, or so they said. I have no idea why.

My friend got to perform on this violin, lucky lady.

I do remember, however, luthiers like Amati would just get lost in a forest with a hammer, striking the trees while putting his ear up to it. Who can say if this subjectivity really mattered. I doubt they had DBTs way back them.


BUT, a violin is designed to be resonant. A speaker cabinet aims for the opposite. However, I've been under the impression that the cabinet is the most expensive part of a good speaker, generally.

 

[lsiberian]

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with the entire premise of this post and on every level.

Well let's not be too harsh. When it comes to subwoofer design drivers are a big deal, but in loudspeaker design it's really not. B&W driver cost like 30 bucks each. Even the Infinity MRS driver is only 100 bucks and it's cutting edge stuff.

Of course without a driver there is no speaker, but once you build a pair of your own speakers you learn were the real cost is.

 

[just listening]

I watched an old B/W documentary on Heifetz many years ago. I remember they took his Guarneri del Gesu, chemically analyzed the varnish, and recreated the violin to 1/1000th of an inch. It still didn't sound the same, or so they said. I have no idea why.

My friend got to perform on this violin, lucky lady.

I do remember, however, luthiers like Amati would just get lost in a forest with a hammer, striking the trees while putting his ear up to it. Who can say if this subjectivity really mattered. I doubt they had DBTs way back them.


BUT, a violin is designed to be resonant. A speaker cabinet aims for the opposite. However, I've been under the impression that the cabinet is the most expensive part of a good speaker, generally.

That documentary rings bells with me, probably have seen it at some point.

There are some speakers that are designed to be resonate, Totem Acoustic and Harbeth speakers are both designed to use the positive attributes of the cabinet. Many people would be floored by how thin the cabinet walls are on the 40.1, one of the truly great speakers from bottom to top in the world.

 

[jostenmeat]

That documentary rings bells with me, probably have seen it at some point.

There are some speakers that are designed to be resonate, Totem Acoustic and Harbeth speakers are both designed to use the positive attributes of the cabinet. Many people would be floored by how thin the cabinet walls are on the 40.1, one of the truly great speakers from bottom to top in the world.

Very interesting . . .

How thin? Ok, I have to admit I am still a bit um suspicious about using cabinet resonances (forgive me and my brainwashed nature). I mean, I understand the idea of finding the proper compromise in deciding which resonances will be less offensive in the whole system, somehow, but um . . . I guess I need clarification. I'm sure it would be hard to explain, even when you had the info in front of you so no biggie . . .

Now, with a musical instrument, the ideal would be that all frequencies resonate with equal strength, for best balance. At least that is my impression (with the given "tonal signature" of any given instrument). It would give one the most flexibility with technique (not forced into a lower or higher "position" at any given time, due to a greater imbalance of the instrument).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with the entire premise of this post and on every level.

Exactly right!!!!

Cabinet design, materials used, construction techniques, dampening materials, the list goes on and on.

Respectfully, the violin is a perfect example that negates the point of AcuDefTechGuy. Over the decades many builders have tried to copy the sound of a Stradivarius, going so far as to use the same strings, etc. but no designer has been able to match it.

So what you are saying is that a $200,000 cabinet will make the same exact drivers sound 100% better than a $2,000 cabinet, assuming all the other variables are similar (construction technique, dampening materials)?

And that is the reason why all these ultra-expensive > $100,000 speakers sound so awesome?

And they sound like $200,000 better than all other speakers for say under $10,000?

 

[jostenmeat]

So what you are saying is that a $200,000 cabinet will make the same exact drivers sound 100% better than a $2,000 cabinet, assuming all the other variables are similar (construction technique, dampening materials)?

Well construction technique is a big part of the cost of some speakers.

You know those speakers that you love, I mean er hate, those B&Ws? The marlin head, and whatever they call the thing they put the tweeter. . . those won't be cheap I presume. They press a single 35mm ply to form entire cabinet bodies according to their site:

Or another technique to both reduce resonance and increase strength:

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well construction technique is a big part of the cost of some speakers.

You know those speakers that you love, I mean er hate, those B&Ws? The marlin head, and whatever they call the thing they put the tweeter. . . those won't be cheap I presume. They press a single 35mm ply to form entire cabinet bodies according to their site:

Or another technique to both reduce resonance and increase strength:

I love the way the B&W 800D looks.

Yeah, when I was talking about "cabinets" I was meant the cabinet cost + cost of putting the cabinets together and all that.

Let's just get rid of the damn cabinet altogether!

Who needs cabinets anyway?

We don't need no stinking boxes.

 

[just listening]

So what you are saying is that a $200,000 cabinet will make the same exact drivers sound 100% better than a $2,000 cabinet, assuming all the other variables are similar (construction technique, dampening materials)?

And that is the reason why all these ultra-expensive > $100,000 speakers sound so awesome?

And they sound like $200,000 better than all other speakers for say under $10,000?

No, you are saying that. I'm just pointing out that drivers and crossovers are only part of the equation. Quality cabinet design and execution, its shape, materials used all have a say, just like the types of capacitors, drivers, etc..

You also asked about the exact wall thickness of Harbeths. I haven't found the specific number, but below is a quote from the 10/2008 Stereophile review by Art Dudley of the Harbeth 40.1's that I found interesting to this discussion. Keep in mind that the 40.1 is a fairly large rectangular 3-way speaker with a 12in. woofer.

"Early speakers from Harbeth and Spendor, et al, pioneered the use of deliberately thin-walled plywood cabinets with minimal damping of individual panels. Using that approach, the English companies were able to keep energy storage reasonably low, and the effects of cabinet resonances could be minimized by spreading them out among many low-amplitude points. Harbeth maintains that approach, but with MDF instead of plywood. The M40.1's cabinet is minimally braced (like a good mandolin, I kept thinking), veneered inside and out, and damped with thin sheets of a hard, lossy material not unlike bitumen."

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No, you are saying that. I'm just pointing out that drivers and crossovers are only part of the equation.

I didn't say that speaker drivers are the ONLY part of the equation.

Of course, everything that goes into the speaker is important, but what is the most important part of the speakers if you could only choose ONE?

Are the cabinets more important than the drivers?

 

[Pyrrho]

I didn't say that speaker drivers are the ONLY part of the equation.

Of course, everything that goes into the speaker is important, but what is the most important part of the speakers if you could only choose ONE?

Are the cabinets more important than the drivers?

For what it's worth, I think they are being unfair to you as well. You did not say that the drivers were all that mattered. Also, really good drivers tend to be expensive. Suppose we were going to build some bookshelf speakers, using, perhaps, these cabinets:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=302-732

Supposedly, they are well made, though I have no direct experience with them.

We could easily spend more money on the drivers, and it would not be wasted money to buy great drivers (assuming we design the crossover properly). I personally really like:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=276-402

Those tweeters alone cost more than the cabinets. And then one would need to add woofers, which will further increase the difference between the cost of the drivers and the cabinets. Of course, we still have not added in the cost of the crossover (which will be largely determined by what woofer we select), the speaker terminals, the internal wiring, or the internal damping materials, but those last three, unless we go crazy for no good reason, will be less than the difference between the cabinet price and the price of the tweeters alone.

My guess is, if, say, we have a budget of $500-600 per speaker, it would not be wise to spend much more on the cabinet that for these, if one is building a bookshelf speaker.

 

[just listening]

Of course, everything that goes into the speaker is important, but what is the most important part of the speakers if you could only choose ONE?

The crossover would be my personal choice. Basic drivers and cabinet with a quality design/parts x-over will IMHO offer the best performance compared to quality drivers/cabinet with just a basic x-over. When you see speaker upgrades talked about most all of them are x-over based.

 

[Pyrrho]

My own post above got me thinking about this a little more. Here you can see the international version of the Aurum Cantus Leisure 2SE for $550/pair plus $199 shipping for a total of $749:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Aurum-Cantus-Leisure-2-Luxury-MKII-Speakers-Pair-/360248617040?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item53e07da850#ht_1342wt_957

These are the tweeters at $178.64 each:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=276-402&vReviewShow=1

That makes the tweeters alone $357.28/pair, which is close to half the cost of the whole speaker delivered!

The woofers used, according to the ad on eBay, are these:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=296-400

They cost $59.57 each, which is $119.14 for the pair, bringing our driver cost up to $476.42 on speakers that cost $749 delivered! This makes me think that unless one really wanted to build one's own cabinets, if one were going to make a bookshelf speaker from these drivers, it would be better to just buy the ready made speakers and, if desired, one could try to tweak the crossover and/or port.

These same drivers can also be bought on eBay, but at the time that I am posting this, they are more expensive on eBay.


(Incidentally, the U.S. version of the Leisure 2SE speaker uses a more expensive woofer.)


Now, these prices are all lower than retail (the international version of this speaker is not for the U.S. market, so it has no U.S. retail price), but these are all new items.

None of this, of course, tells us what it actually cost to make each item, but that is also true of the ready made cabinets mentioned in my post above, which cost much less than these excellent tweeters.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The crossover would be my personal choice. Basic drivers and cabinet with a quality design/parts x-over will IMHO offer the best performance compared to quality drivers/cabinet with just a basic x-over. When you see speaker upgrades talked about most all of them are x-over based.

Okay, fine, since the crossover is the "brain" of the speakers, I can see why it would be the most important.

Is there a particular crossover design that you prefer?

Linkwitz-Riley?

So after the crossover, what is the most important component of the speaker? Drivers or cabinet?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think most of us already agree that some exotic speakers somehow sound worse than less expensive high-quality speakers.

Obviously, those $40,000 cabinets didn't help.

But did those $40,000 cabinets hurt?

So how did they go wrong?

Did they use weird exotic design drivers & crossovers?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...bringing our driver cost up to $476.42 on speakers that cost $749 delivered!

Now that is a good ratio!

Assuming the crossover is also good, that should be a great speaker for the price.

Bang-for-the-buck right there.

 

[just listening]

Okay, fine, since the crossover is the "brain" of the speakers, I can see why it would be the most important.

Is there a particular crossover design that you prefer?

Linkwitz-Riley?

So after the crossover, what is the most important component of the speaker? Drivers or cabinet?

It all depends on what the design goals are, whether it is 2-way, 3-way, etc.

For me, drivers come second, then finally the cabinet. Of course the kicker is that all three need to work together to make it all worthwhile. Walk around RMAF and you'll see the gamut of designs. No one way is better than another in general, it all goes back to what the designer is trying to accomplish based upon speaker style.

 

[jostenmeat]

Okay, fine, since the crossover is the "brain" of the speakers, I can see why it would be the most important.

Is there a particular crossover design that you prefer?

Linkwitz-Riley?

So after the crossover, what is the most important component of the speaker? Drivers or cabinet?

I once read that when you listen to a speaker, you are listening to the xover. However, Paul Apollonio has a lot of experience with this stuff, and he finds driver expertise to be much more rare than xover expertise. You need to read this thread:

The Crossover - Brain of your Loudspeaker System

Then, TLS Guy has many times described the art of building a speaker to be something like trying to make the most intelligent choices in compromises. All things considered.

I would think that drivers chosen will already narrow down the type of xover you can even implement.

For instance, I remember annunaki years ago contributing his knowledge about 1st order xovers found with BW and Dynaudio, such as in the 685 series is it. The mid needs to be able to really get up there with such a shallow slope, and the xover will naturally be higher up. Then there's the whole phase thing depending on the slope/type chosen. But, I guess we can't really hear it, but after picking TLS' brain on Thiel (way hell bent on 1st order), they even slope the cabinet backwards so that all drivers are in phase when they hit your ears. I think 15 deg.

But, I believe most people prefer steeper slopes for better offaxis response.

I am under the impression (I'm still a neophyte) that the main cost of the xover is the design/research.

 

[Pyrrho]

Now that is a good ratio!

Assuming the crossover is also good, that should be a great speaker for the price.

Bang-for-the-buck right there.

I think they are a great bang for the buck. The cabinets are also very high quality, much higher than you would expect at that price. You can read some reviews of these speakers:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0406/aurum_cantus_leisure_loudspeakers.htm
(Judging by the claimed -3dB rating, the sensitivity rating, and the crossover frequency, he seems to have the international version rather than the version specifically made for the U.S. market, which has a -3dB point of 50 Hz, a sensitivity of 88dB @ 1w @ 1m, and a crossover at 3kHz.)

http://www.kellsieavdesign.com/Leisure2SE_Review.PDF
(The bass hump mentioned in this review was removed for the original U.S. version. To me, that is one of the best improvements, though not the only one.)

I used to own a pair of the Aurum Cantus Leisure 2SE international version (but I don't know if there have been any changes in that version of the model since then), but I replaced them with the original U.S. version of them, which are better, but cost more. (When I say "original" U.S. version, I don't mean the first that were imported into the U.S., which seem to have been the international version [as opposed to the Chinese version made for the Chinese market]; I mean the ones co-designed by Kellsie Audio & Video Designs, some of whose specifications are listed above, and you can see in a brochure here, though there they give the -6dB rating without specifying the tolerance on the frequency response. Later, Kellsie again reworked the crossover for the "Signature" version, also a U.S. exclusive, which has the same specifications as the original U.S. version. You can see more about the differences between the U.S. version and the international version here. The U.S. version [signature and original] have a smaller flared port, the international version has a larger straight port; the U.S. version has a better finish, though the international version has a great finish; etc. You can also read about some differences in a review here [look for the review dated September 19, 2006]. Originally, the original U.S. version had a retail price of $1500, but was dropped to $1300 when the "Signature" version came out at $1500. Probably, Kellsie was just clearing out the old ones when the Signature version came out and reduced the retail price rather than calling them a "closeout".)

If all of this sounds complicated, really, it is no more complicated than with many other speakers of other brands, as it is not exactly rare to change a model slightly during its production, so different ones may be different without having a different model number (and in this case, specifying "U.S. version" and "Signature" version is telling you something). This happens with components other than speakers as well.


The Leisure 2SE (all versions) is also an easy 8 ohm speaker, of normal sensitivity, so they can be used with just about any amplifier ever made.

Now, I know nothing about the eBay sellers, so I have no comment on whether or not one should buy from them.

 

[GranteedEV]

Exactly right!!!!

Cabinet design, materials used, construction techniques, dampening materials, the list goes on and on.

Respectfully, the violin is a perfect example that negates the point of AcuDefTechGuy. Over the decades many builders have tried to copy the sound of a Stradivarius, going so far as to use the same strings, etc. but no designer
has been able to match it.

The violin probably wasn't getting clean power, should have gotten a bow conditioner.

 

[ichigo]

Stradivarius:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stradivarius

Seems like a lot of people were having trouble picking out the Stradivarius from other violins