Audible Difference $3000 To $20,000?

[jumpnblues]

I've never had the opportunity to listen to a $10,000 + speaker system. Is there an obvious/striking difference between, say, a truly great sounding $3000 system (Salk, for example) and a $15,000 - $20,000 system? Or, is it likely to be a more subtle difference? Just wondering how good the really high dollar systems sound since I've never heard one? Thank you.


Tom

 

[markw]

The point of diminishing returns varies from person to person.

Speakers, more than any other component in the audio chain, are dependent on personal taste. That's to say there is no "standard" sound.

While I'm sure there will be differences between a 3k speaker and a 20k speaker, but whether it's worth the difference in price is in the ears of the beholder.

 

[KEW]

So far, I have heard real differences between every speakers I have had the opportunity to compare in a decent environment.
Making a judgment as to whether these differences are improvements or simply different is sometimes difficult.
Like most complex systems, it takes quality components, quality design, and dumb luck to end up with a truly outstanding product, IMHO. Money should buy the first two, but the luck factor is what separates the great products from the good products.

Here is where I did a comparison to see what $8500 would get over my $1800 (used) Paradigm S-2's (version 2):

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59476&highlight=focal+1028

 

[yepimonfire]

some of the more expensive speakers actually sound worse, theres several cheaper speakers that can outperform the expensive ones.

 

[walter duque]

When you go from 3K-6K your'e not getting twice the speaker. You get maybe a 10%-15% improvement in SQ.

 

[vikebrian84]

When you go from 3K-6K your'e not getting twice the speaker. You get maybe a 10%-15% improvement in SQ.

In economic words. You get diminishing returns. The more you spend the less and less improvement you get from each dollar you spend.

The jump from 500$ to 1000$ is pretty big I would say, but from 1000$ to 1500$ less big, and from 1500$ to 2000$ even less so. Each jump there usually a improvement if you spend your money in the right place but each improvement is less than the improvement before.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Higher price does not always guarantee better sound quality to most people.

Some folks are more critical than others, and some folks may be able to hear "more" than others.

I think the most important components to all speakers are the drivers (tweeter, midrange, woofer).

There are only so many drivers out there, so even the most expensive speakers will most likely use the same or similar drivers as less expensive speakers.

Just because they are diamond or beryllium or other exotic designs does not guarantee better sound quality.

Speaker cabinets are also important, but not nearly as important as the drivers. The most expensive speakers will have cabinets that cost an absurd amount.

In the end, the most important factor is your own hearing threshold; if you cannot tell the difference between $23,000 speakers vs. $3,000 speakers, then that is the only truth that matters.

Personally, I have been very disappointed in some $23K, $14K, and $8K speakers recently, but that is just me, myself, and no one else.

And I won't tell you what speakers they were because I don't want to offend PENG or other respectable members here.

 

[Pyrrho]

I've never had the opportunity to listen to a $10,000 + speaker system. Is there an obvious/striking difference between, say, a truly great sounding $3000 system (Salk, for example) and a $15,000 - $20,000 system? Or, is it likely to be a more subtle difference? Just wondering how good the really high dollar systems sound since I've never heard one? Thank you.


Tom

Typically, the difference between a great $3000 speaker and a much more expensive one will be either not terribly striking, or simply different and not necessarily better (though the difference might be striking). $3000 is enough to get a really good speaker.

If you are comparing, say, a $3000 conventional speaker with a Magnepan MG 20.1, the difference will likely be striking because ribbon/planar speakers are quite different from conventional speakers (some people love them, like me, and some people don't, because there are some things that are less than ideal about them, just like there is something less than ideal about every speaker ever made). But the difference between a Magnepan MG 3.6 ($5,000) and a Magnepan MG 20.1 ($12,000) is going to be relatively subtle, particularly considering the difference in price [I doubt many would say it is even close to "twice as good", though I think it would generally be agreed that it is noticeably better, if one has a big enough room for it, and particularly if one plays music with very deep bass]. To get into your price range of your hypothetical speaker with Magnepan, you would want to go with the MG 1.7 [$2,000], which is a new model that is getting some good press. That would probably be an excellent model to select, unless one has money to burn for a higher end model, though I freely admit that I have not yet heard it (it is a very new model).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, some speakers will just sound "different" good or bad.

I also prefer the sound of dipole & bipole speakers over monopole speakers.

I think the biggest difference may be the BASS output. Some speakers produce little bass, while some speakers produce tremendous amount of bass.

I think having great bass is very important because it gives you that overall "balance" soundfield - like nothing is missing.

 

[just listening]

One thing about most people who invest in speakers above $10K, they usually have a dedicated sound room, and hopefully have quality room treatments. This hobby, like cars, boats, etc. can become a quest to eek out the very last measure of performance possible. Many will think the individual is nuts, but if the quest is to enjoy music in its finest form, instead of as a bragging tool, more power to them.

The Magnepan 1.7's are an excellent choice, though like their predecessor, the 1.6, they are very finicky about placement, like gobs of quality power, and some listeners like to add a sub. But once properly setup they are something special.

At that same $2k price, the Salk Song Tower would deserve serious consideration.

 

[ichigo]

...and another good reason for why $20,000 speakers won't sound significantly more than $3,000 speakers...

If a manufacturer has both price points in lineup...seriously, how much more do you think those $20K speakers cost per unit to manufacture over the $3k speakers?...probably a minuscule amount.

It's like paying $600 for a pair of "anniversary" basketball sneakers that have a worldwide production run of 250 units...the leather finish is like $10 more expensive to manufacture vs the $150 sneakers.

Don't assume that if a manufacturer increases the price 7 fold that they spent 7 times the amount of money to make the higher priced speaker. If it's even two times the amount I'd be surprised. If they honestly, legitimately spent 7 times the resources building the speakers there would be a fairly substantial difference.

Edit: Reminds me of the "speaker stands" manufacturers for "high end" speakers sell..insane prices like $1,500 speaker stands. Let's be honest here, you could go to a masterwork woodsmith and he could make you something twice as good for $500. Part of the price is the mystique audio companies build with very little that can be backed by science.

 

[just listening]

...and another good reason for why $20,000 speakers won't sound significantly more than $3,000 speakers...

If a manufacturer has both price points in lineup...seriously, how much more do you think those $20K speakers cost per unit to manufacture over the $3k speakers?...probably a minuscule amount.

It's like paying $600 for a pair of "anniversary" basketball sneakers that have a worldwide production run of 250 units...the leather finish is like $10 more expensive to manufacture vs the $150 sneakers.

Don't assume that if a manufacturer increases the price 7 fold that they spent 7 times the amount of money to make the higher priced speaker. If it's even two times the amount I'd be surprised. If they honestly, legitimately spent 7 times the resources building the speakers there would be a fairly substantial difference.

Edit: Reminds me of the "speaker stands" manufacturers for "high end" speakers sell..insane prices like $1,500 speaker stands. Let's be honest here, you could go to a masterwork woodsmith and he could make you something twice as good for $500. Part of the price is the mystique audio companies build with very little that can be backed by science.

After reading your post, something you should consider:

Take Jim Salk for example. For $2k you can buy his widely respected SongTowers, a terrific speaker for the price. Now, for $14K you can get his new Soundscapes, which I had the pleasure of hearing as well at RMAF. It took him and his staff four years and thousands upon thousands of hours to design, build and test, with endless number of changes. Every one of those speakers that he builds are done by hand and take a tremendous amount of time. The tolerances in the crossover parts are higher, therefore, that cost increases substantially. In the end what the buyer is paying for goes beyond the cost of parts, and a significant jump in resolution, it's the FOUR years of development. Plus, at that price the volume is low, therefore economics of development cost for each pair sold is high.

If you ever get a chance to hear them side-by-side you'll hear that the jump is not a small one. Ask some of the forum members who attended last the Oregon Coast GTG, from what I heard/read they would agree with my impression.

 

[ichigo]

After reading your post, something you should consider:

Take Jim Salk for example. For $2k you can buy his widely respected SongTowers, a terrific speaker for the price. Now, for $14K you can get his new Soundscapes, which I had the pleasure of hearing as well at RMAF. It took him and his staff four years and thousands upon thousands of hours to design, build and test, with endless number of changes. Every one of those speakers that he builds are done by hand and take a tremendous amount of time. The tolerances in the crossover parts are higher, therefore, that cost increases substantially. In the end what the buyer is paying for goes beyond the cost of parts, and a significant jump in resolution, it's the FOUR years of development. Plus, at that price the volume is low, therefore economics of development cost for each pair sold is high.

If you ever get a chance to hear them side-by-side you'll hear that the jump is not a small one. Ask some of the forum members who attended last the Oregon Coast GTG, from what I heard/read they would agree with my impression.

Yeah I took high school chemistry.

 

[GranteedEV]

well, let's see

RBH's cheapest tower is 500 dollars (EMP e5ti).

Their most expensive tower was like 50, 000 (Status Acoustics Titus)

Do I believe that the latter is literally 100 times better? lmao no. But it might be three or four times as good. I wouldn't know. All I do know is that if I'm super-rich, I can choose between a 95 and a 100. At that point, if I've got the money, well I can make a decision between a Lambhorghini Gallardo or a Murcielago

And then i'll have some guy with a Nissan GTR telling me he can probably keep up with me.
And then i'll have some guy in high school with a suped up honda prelude telling me he spent 2% of what I did.

 

[lsiberian]

Speaker cabinets are also important, but not nearly as important as the drivers. The most expensive speakers will have cabinets that cost an absurd amount.

Drivers are the cheapest part in most speakers. The cabinets and crossovers are where the real expense comes from. But one only need point out Bose to prove price doesn't equal quality.

 

[jumpnblues]

So far, I have heard real differences between every speakers I have had the opportunity to compare in a decent environment.
Making a judgment as to whether these differences are improvements or simply different is sometimes difficult.
Like most complex systems, it takes quality components, quality design, and dumb luck to end up with a truly outstanding product, IMHO. Money should buy the first two, but the luck factor is what separates the great products from the good products.

Here is where I did a comparison to see what $8500 would get over my $1800 (used) Paradigm S-2's (version 2):

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59476&highlight=focal+1028

Thank you so much for your very interesting review. It gives me at least some idea of the potential differences between a really good speaker and a great one.


Tom

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Drivers are the cheapest part in most speakers.

This is unfortunate because the drivers are the most imporant parts in the speakers. The drivers are the ones producing all the sounds.

But some companies probably spend 80% of the money on the cabinets, and 20% on the drivers and crossovers. This is the reason why a lot of ultra-expensive speakers don't sound any better than less expensive speakers in which the designers put 80% of the cost on the drivers.

For example, let's say the ultimate best sounding drivers + crossover for a pair of speakers cost $2,400.

So if you were building the "best" speakers, you would want the "best" drivers, which is $2,400 in our example.
But you want something exotic, fancy, and expensive, so you put $20,000 on the cabinets.

Another desinger uses the same exact best sounding drivers + crossover for $2,400. But he builds a good cabinet for $2,000.

In the end, both speakers will sound extremely a like since they both use the exact same drivers and crossovers.

 

[InTheIndustry]

It depends....

The answer is: There is no definitive answer. Why? Because there are too many variables in the question.

The biggest 3, IMO being room size, environment, and listening volume. The last of those 3 is grossly under-valued by many…. Until they turn their gear up.

- Room size = Cubic volume of the room.
- Environment = Acoustically treated? Is it already friendly to acoustics? Are there electronics on board being used to solve those problems or physical materials or both?
- Is there a need for in-walls? Behind wall? Floor standing? Bookshelf? In-ceiling? A combination of several of those? Aesthetics or placement? And on and on. Those all can dictate price.

There are so many different systems and combinations of variables that the answer to your question changes frequently.

Some examples if you’re doing a theater: Yeah, you can spend $6K+ on a JL-Audio dual F113 Fathom setup. But, if you’re in a small/medium sized room (say 19’D x 14’W x 9’H) is that exact same performance going to be achieved by a pair of something else with a lower cost? Perhaps even a different single subwoofer with a lower cost? I would say that’s absolutely possible to either of those ideas!

It’s the same thing with the other speakers in a multichannel setup. Lets use that same room as an example and assume the system designer used the absolute BEST subwoofers FOR THAT ROOM: Would there be a real world performance difference in that environment between a pair of Jamo C809 towers a pair of Jamo C805 towers, or a pair of the C803 bookshelves from that same line. My short answer: NO – Go with the cheaper bookshelves. Going strictly by performance needs, to purchase the towers for more $ in that situation would be a waste.

Remove the subs and just do a 2 channel system for moderate volume and rock and roll listening and I would change my tune…. To a point. I would still not recommend the larger C809. It won’t sound right or be used to its full potential in a room like that. The C805 or C807 towers, however, would be excellent. That’s still not to say that sound could not be better with other brands or price points or that the C805 bookshelves still wouldn’t be the best choice. I’m just illustrating how people can over buy for their individual environments or performance goals.

Most people will be blown away by a $5K speaker system in their avg. family room at home or small/medium sized theater. I would be hard hard pressed to find someone not impressed by a Jamo THX Select 2 D 500 LCR setup using multiple subs and any random $800-$1000 receiver in a medium sized room. That could be gotten easily for <$5K. If someone needed in-walls instead of on-walls,, though, they would need to spend more than the $349ea. the D 500s go for. That’s the nature of the in-wall beast.

In the end: If someone is trying to get BIG sound and BIG performance in a BIG room, that can cost some BIG $$$$$. And it should… because it’s designed to be BIGGER!

In the end, it all depends!

 

[InTheIndustry]

This is unfortunate because the drivers are the most imporant parts in the speakers. The drivers are the ones producing all the sounds.

But some companies probably spend 80% of the money on the cabinets, and 20% on the drivers and crossovers. This is the reason why a lot of ultra-expensive speakers don't sound any better than less expensive speakers in which the designers put 80% of the cost on the drivers.

For example, let's say the ultimate best sounding drivers + crossover for a pair of speakers cost $2,400.

So if you were building the "best" speakers, you would want the "best" drivers, which is $2,400 in our example.
But you want something exotic, fancy, and expensive, so you put $20,000 on the cabinets.

Another desinger uses the same exact best sounding drivers + crossover for $2,400. But he builds a good cabinet for $2,000.

In the end, both speakers will sound extremely a like since they both use the exact same drivers and crossovers.

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with the entire premise of this post and on every level.

 

[just listening]

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with the entire premise of this post and on every level.

Exactly right!!!!

Cabinet design, materials used, construction techniques, dampening materials, the list goes on and on.

Respectfully, the violin is a perfect example that negates the point of AcuDefTechGuy. Over the decades many builders have tried to copy the sound of a Stradivarius, going so far as to use the same strings, etc. but no designer has been able to match it.