AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I see crazy minds think alike. I just ordered an AT3004 for bi-amping the Salon 2s. (For those about to chide me, no, not passive bi-amping. I use a high-pass filter on the woofers to blend with the sub.) I probably need 300W/ch like Warren Buffett needs more money, but my motto is go big or stay home. The selling point was a demo of an AT2005 with Klipsch RF83s - no hiss from the tweeters with the ATI at idle (ATI processor too). Sounded dead quiet. Amazing, considering the sensitivity of those speakers. That trumps my current amps soundly, so they're being relieved of duty.

Do you power the Salon 2s with one of the ATI amps? Are they also dead quiet? (Of course, the receiver or pre-amp can be a factor too.)
Congratulations on the AT3004!

I should have gotten two AT3007! :eek:

Can't have enough power, right? :D

Dead silence, yes. For now I'm just using an AT3002 to power the Salon2, although I probably should have gotten a AT3004 to bi-amp like you.:D

I don't think many people will laugh even if we passively bi-amp the Salon2 with the AT3004. Justifiable amplification to me.:D

Now I must find the way. :eek: :D

Hmm, maybe I should use the AT3002 for the philharmonic 3, and get an AT3004 for the Salon2. :eek:
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Hmm, maybe I should use the AT3002 for the philharmonic 3, and get an AT3004 for the Salon2. :eek:
You could test it out with the AT3007 and see if it makes a difference. I doubt it, unless you stop running your Salon 2 woofers full range. Actually, I was thinking a pair of twin AT3002s, one for each Salon 2, but with their modular architecture ATI makes that seem such a waste I couldn't justify the twins.

I was also sniffing around twin Emotiva XPA-2s, which would cost a lot less, but Gene mentioned a lack of "kid gloves" treatment of the music compared to his reference in his review. I'm not sure what that meant, but it was enough to push me towards the ATI. The 1W SNR of the Emo looked good in their own posted tests, but Gene's measurements of the 1st watt of output (I agree with Nelson Pass, the most important) were not as clean as he's seen.

So I used Gene's review as an excuse to spend more on the ATI. :) I do wonder if there is a difference I could discern between the amps.
 
adk highlander

adk highlander

Sith Lord
Congrats on your ATI purchase. That amp should give you many years of happiness. I don't think there is a better amp out there in their price range. I went from an MPS-1 to the ATI 2000 series. While I cannot say there was any real difference in the sound there was a major difference in the noise floor you were speaking about.

Post some picks when you can.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
You could test it out with the AT3007 and see if it makes a difference. I doubt it, unless you stop running your Salon 2 woofers full range. Actually, I was thinking a pair of twin AT3002s, one for each Salon 2, but with their modular architecture ATI makes that seem such a waste I couldn't justify the twins.

I was also sniffing around twin Emotiva XPA-2s, which would cost a lot less, but Gene mentioned a lack of "kid gloves" treatment of the music compared to his reference in his review. I'm not sure what that meant, but it was enough to push me towards the ATI. The 1W SNR of the Emo looked good in their own posted tests, but Gene's measurements of the 1st watt of output (I agree with Nelson Pass, the most important) were not as clean as he's seen.

So I used Gene's review as an excuse to spend more on the ATI. :) I do wonder if there is a difference I could discern between the amps.
Congrats on your ATI purchase. That amp should give you many years of happiness. I don't think there is a better amp out there in their price range. I went from an MPS-1 to the ATI 2000 series. While I cannot say there was any real difference in the sound there was a major difference in the noise floor you were speaking about.

Post some picks when you can.
I've also owned the $1700 Emotiva MPS-2 in the past. The noise floor is not as silent as the ATI for sure. There is a hiss sound with the ear to the drivers on the Emotiva. Not audible with music on, of course.

But the ATI is dead silent on the noise floor. Also has 7 yr warranty vs 5 yr. Also FULLY BALANCED vs. single balanced. Also made in USA vs China. Also Fuse-less vs fuse.

The MPS-2 was extremely heavy (7 ch amp ~ 110lb). But the XPA-2 is 75lbs, which is also heavy. But the AT3002 is like 95lbs, so the AT3004 is like 110lbs.

Also knowing that ATI make amps for 12 other companies doesn't hurt either, including Mark Levinson, Lexison, JBL, Earthquake, Cinepro, Outlaw.

And, of course, there is that subjective aesthetics issues for some of us. :D
 
zildjian

zildjian

Audioholic Chief
I've got the Outlaw 7900 (ATI 3007 with an Outlaw faceplate...). Can I play in this thread too? :D:D:D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I've got the Outlaw 7900 (ATI 3007 with an Outlaw faceplate...). Can I play in this thread too? :D:D:D
Absolutely. Outlaw Audio is a member of the ATI extended family.:D

ATI said they make amps for a "dozen " other companies. Mark Levinson, Lexicon, JBL, Outlaw, Cinepro, & Earthquake come to mind. I asked them once to give me the names of all the companies, but they couldn't legally do that. :D
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
The ATI AT3005 arrived yesterday. It was supposed to be an AT3004, but ATI ran out of 3004 rear panels, so they gave me a deal I couldn't refuse on a 3005.

The 3005 does weigh about 110 lbs, but it is truly efficient compared to the Mark Levinson 334s it's replacing. The AT3005 = 5x300wpc @ 8ohms = 1500/110 = 13.6 watts/lb. The pair of 334s are 4x125wpc @ 8 ohms and together weigh about 220 lbs, so that's 500/220 = 2.27 watts/lb. It's a little better into 4 ohms, because the 334 is a more linear voltage source than the AT300x amps are, but the 334 still only achieves about 4.5 watts/lb. Yeah, I know some pro amps like Crowns do a lot better in watts/lb, but they aren't Class AB audiophile things, so there.

The build quality of the AT3005 is very good, about equal to the Levinson, I'd estimate. The 334 is more expensive due to massive over-engineering (like a separate 800 VA transformer per channel; the 3005's five channels share two transformers) and more expensive cosmetics. The heat sinks on a 334 are a work of metal art, on the 3005 they're internal. The 334 uses solid copper buss bars for power distribution, soda-can sized power supply caps, and when you take the lid off everything is so pretty inside you want to leave the lid off, just for show. The 334 also uses predictive bias level control, which has benefits of unknown value, but it sounds cool! The 3005 is utilitarian and is a more simple design by comparison.

Architecture-wise, both the 3005 and the 334 use fully balanced circuits, meaning they use two mirrored amplification signal paths per channel in differential mode. This is pretty much the state of the art, so you would think that both well-designed amplifiers would perform alike, but you'd be wrong. They don't. On the Salon 2s both 334s generate an audible hiss through the tweeters at idle, and they have since day 1. And, no, nothing is out of spec. The two 334s are so precisely built with matched components that their sensitivity is identical enough that I can vertically bi-amp each Salon 2 with a 334, and a point-source sound (like a human voice) is perfectly centered between the speakers. And that was true even with my old 95db/2.83v Legacy Focus speakers. Now that's precise unit-to-unit matching.

The 3005, on the other hand, is dead quiet through the Salon 2s at idle. That means the low output SNR must be *at least* 5db lower than on the 334, and probably more like 10db lower. I wish I had the equipment to measure the difference.

Can I hear the difference in sound quality? I don't know yet, but I doubt I'll be able to. Nonetheless, not having that hiss makes me happier, and that's worth something. Not priceless, but worth something.

The cool thing is that the 3005 cost less than the resale value of just one 334. Now maybe I can have that DEQX pre-amp unit GranteedEV turned me on to, once I sell the 334s.
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
Hello All,

I am considering buying an Outlaw 7700, Outlaw 7900, or an ATI3000 for use my the Marantz AV8801.
I have sent some email to ATI and it seems that the 7900 and 3007 are similar but not the same.
The primary difference I find between these two is the input impedance, which is 10K for the 7900 and 28K for the 3000.
This may matter when by-amping my Revels since the signal is split.

Any advise?

What color is the ATI?

Sometimes it looks gray and sometimes black.
The Marantz is black so I would like it to match.

I will definitely go ATI3007 if I could get it for $3K.
Where are you folks finding these fantastic prices?

Thanks,

Rich
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Hello All,

I am considering buying an Outlaw 7700, Outlaw 7900, or an ATI3000 for use my the Marantz AV8801.
I have sent some email to ATI and it seems that the 7900 and 3007 are similar but not the same.
The primary difference I find between these two is the input impedance, which is 10K for the 7900 and 28K for the 3000.
This may matter when by-amping my Revels since the signal is split.

Any advise?

What color is the ATI?

Sometimes it looks gray and sometimes black.
The Marantz is black so I would like it to match.

I will definitely go ATI3007 if I could get it for $3K.
Where are you folks finding these fantastic prices?

Thanks,

Rich
I've never seen the 3007 for $3K. $3700 is more like it. Classicaudioparts.com sells so-called B-stock ATI amps, but no one has ever seen a difference between these amps and A-stock ones.

The ATI amps are black.

Which Revels do you have? I found no audible advantage from passive bi-amping of the Salon2s I have. I was looking to bi-amp only because I wanted to use a high-pass filter on the woofer section with a sub, but in the end I'm running the Salon2s full-range, so I'm using the 3005 as a 3002.

I got a better price on the AT3005 than normal because I ordered a 3004, ATI ran out of back panels for 3004s, so they gave me the 3005 for the 3004 price. One-time deal.

As for the 7900 versus the 3007, I like the dual 15 amp power cord strategy of the 7900 better than the single 20 amp cord for the 3007. The rest of the specs are nearly impossible to decide on. I'd recommend the ATI only because I think there's an advantage to getting support from the people that designed the product, not the people who just market it.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Hello All,

I am considering buying an Outlaw 7700, Outlaw 7900, or an ATI3000 for use my the Marantz AV8801.
I have sent some email to ATI and it seems that the 7900 and 3007 are similar but not the same.
The primary difference I find between these two is the input impedance, which is 10K for the 7900 and 28K for the 3000.
This may matter when by-amping my Revels since the signal is split.

Any advise?

What color is the ATI?

Sometimes it looks gray and sometimes black.
The Marantz is black so I would like it to match.

I will definitely go ATI3007 if I could get it for $3K.
Where are you folks finding these fantastic prices?

Thanks,

Rich
I would say the color is very dark grey, not black. But if the lights are dimmed, they will look black. :D

Classic Audio Parts is authorized dealer. You get the same 7 yr parts & labor.

Occasionally you may be lucky like I was and get 50% off MSRP. I bought all 4 ATI amps at 50% off MSRP. But those deals are very rare these days. :D
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I would say the color is very dark grey, not black. But if the lights are dimmed, they will look black.
Very dark grey, huh? My amp is sitting out next to a black Salon2, and it looks pretty darn black to me. ;)
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
I've never seen the 3007 for $3K. $3700 is more like it. Classicaudioparts.com sells so-called B-stock ATI amps, but no one has ever seen a difference between these amps and A-stock ones.

The ATI amps are black.

Which Revels do you have? I found no audible advantage from passive bi-amping of the Salon2s I have. I was looking to bi-amp only because I wanted to use a high-pass filter on the woofer section with a sub, but in the end I'm running the Salon2s full-range, so I'm using the 3005 as a 3002.

I got a better price on the AT3005 than normal because I ordered a 3004, ATI ran out of back panels for 3004s, so they gave me the 3005 for the 3004 price. One-time deal.

As for the 7900 versus the 3007, I like the dual 15 amp power cord strategy of the 7900 better than the single 20 amp cord for the 3007. The rest of the specs are nearly impossible to decide on. I'd recommend the ATI only because I think there's an advantage to getting support from the people that designed the product, not the people who just market it.
I have the original Revel Salons (not the 2's).
According to ATI the input stage is different which accounts for the higher impedance on the ATI and the ATI uses fewer, more robust output devices. The Outlaw amp needs more output devices as each has a lower safe operating area than the devices used in ATI. The slew rate is also spec'ed better using XLR on the ATI, 70 versus 50uVs. That could just be specs though, they may be the same.</SPAN>
Still, probably not an audible difference.
Higher impedance may only matter if bi-amping.

I noticed the ATI has a clip indicator, have you ever seen that go off?

I was looking at some of the pricing in the start of the thread and folks got some great deals.
So, if 3K is my limit, then would the ATI 5 channel.

The best deal in town would be B-Stock Outlaw 7700 and Bi-amp for a bit of extra power.

Thanks,

- Rich
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I have the original Revel Salons (not the 2's).
According to ATI the input stage is different which accounts for the higher impedance on the ATI and the ATI uses fewer, more robust output devices. The Outlaw amp needs more output devices as each has a lower safe operating area than the devices used in ATI. The slew rate is also spec'ed better using XLR on the ATI, 70 versus 50uVs. That could just be specs though, they may be the same.
Still, probably not an audible difference.
Higher impedance may only matter if bi-amping.

I noticed the ATI has a clip indicator, have you ever seen that go off?

I was looking at some of the pricing in the start of the thread and folks got some great deals.
So, if 3K is my limit, then would the ATI 5 channel.

The best deal in town would be B-Stock Outlaw 7700 and Bi-amp for a bit of extra power.

Thanks,

- Rich
I'd recommend forgetting about passive bi-amping. The original Salons are a pretty benign load, so you probably won't get any advantage from bi-amping with amps as powerful as 450w/ch into their 4 ohm load, unless you have a really huge room and you'd be clipping the amp on the woofer section. That strikes me as very unlikely.

Which begs the question, why not go for the ATI3002? If you have surrounds you could use a lesser amp for those speakers.

I have seen the clip indicator light up on the ATI, but only once, and I suspect it was due to an overloaded input stage on the subwoofer's DSP. Since I began running the Salon 2s full-range I have not seen it light up.

The lower input impedance of the Outlaw will probably not make a difference if you are using a high quality front end.
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
I am using the AV8801 preamp and I have asked Marantz to tell me the output impedance.
They sent a message to Japan, so who knows if I will get an answer.

While I could handle two amps, I prefer only one.
It looks like the Salon 2's have a minimum impedance of 3.7 and the Salons are 3.0 so they are a little harder to drive.

Still, it looks like the ATI3005 might do the trick.
Also, the 7700 is still a possibility with bi-amping.

- Rich
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Very dark grey, huh? My amp is sitting out next to a black Salon2, and it looks pretty darn black to me. ;)
I supposed it depends in the lighting and our own sensory color interpretation. :D Next to my black Denon and black B&W, my AT3002 & AT3005 look dark grey with the room lights on. Of course, most people may have their room lights dimmed. In which case, they look black. :D

Either way, I think the ATI look very classy and great. :D
 

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