Are you buying Blu-ray or HD DVD this Christmas?

[swestbom]

Neither

I am voting for video on demand over the internet. If Google manages to get into this business and overcome the current ISP's marketing decision steering us towards cable at the expense of really high bandwidth internet access like Asia has (The U.S .providers do not want to undercut their traditional cable model).

In my area the one ISP capable of really high speed service, Verizon, wants a ludicrous amount of money for really high speed internet connectivity and it is still slower than the normal services developed areas of Asia.

 

[j_garcia]

this format war is one more slap-in-the-face to "us" consumers. i love high-tech gadgets but too many quality issues loom which will keep me on the sidelines for some time. i agree...not enough difference between sd-dvds on a good upconverting player vs. hd.

I'm sorry, but I have owned 2 upscaling players and there is NO WAY upscaled SD DVD is even close to either format. It is an improvement yes, but it is not "close enough" to make a claim as such. For certain movies, the high def versions are not a significant upgrade, but that is not the norm. To my eyes, there is more of a difference between HD and upscaled than there is between upscaled and SD.

I didn't vote because I don't have definite plans to buy.

 

[smurphy522]

Well it looks as though I will be waiting to get in on the HD disc craze. I am content now with my upconverting player. I would rather put the $ towards another Oppo as my DVD collection is just too great, over 250 titles and growing. My son is not old enough for me to "shield myself" from my wife and get a console. The bedroom LCD could use the 971 and an Oppo 981 would be great in the family room. I think I will get us a new Oppo 981 player and be content for another 2 years or until the "war" is over and the winner's media pricing comes down from the heavens.

 

[kens]

Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD

My answer was no. I need resolution to the format war, bitstream output for all formats, and lower prices (players and content) before I buy.
I might consider a dual format player that meets the 2nd and 3rd criteria next year, but I wouldn't buy any content (just rent) until the first issue is resolved.

 

[dobyblue]

I am planning on picking up the Samsung BD-P1400 for Christmas if they do not add DTS-MA bitstream support to the PS3 by then.

I will not support HD DVD unless there are still major studios not supporting Blu-ray by CES 2009.

 

[dobyblue]

my first post to AHTF...long-time member at AVS hello all....

this format war is one more slap-in-the-face to "us" consumers. i love high-tech gadgets but too many quality issues loom which will keep me on the sidelines for some time. i agree...not enough difference between sd-dvds on a good upconverting player vs. hd.

Sure there is, a HUGE difference in audio and video. We took a step backwards in audio with DVD from where we had reached with LD (PCM)

Look at this comparison of Superbit Underworld with Blu-ray.

All images from Home Theater Spot.

 

[dobyblue]

Blu-ray has been a worse offender thus far, sometimes delivering video that is barely better than DVD. Often delivering movies with just a regular DD or DTS audio track and WAY too frequently delivering a movie with no special features or fewer special features than the DVD release.

HD-DVD has shown a more consistent step up in video quality over DVD

This is a common misconception and would be true were it posted 14 or 15months ago, but I think most people would agree that Universal are the biggest offenders when it comes to catalog titles not being cleaned up and since January of this year Sony/Columbia titles like Identity, Big Fish, etc., have all had excellent PQ.

I have kept tally over the last 10 months or so of all the reviews from High Def Digest, Home Theater Spot, DVD Talk, Upcoming Discs and Home Theater Forum for both Blu-ray and HD DVD discs and here are the numbers as of September 5th, 2007. (ALL SCORED REVIEWS ARE INCLUDED)

HDD 239HD/252BD, HTS 221HD/228BD, HTF 86HD/94BD, UD 148HD/130BD, Talk 281HD/282BD
09.05.07

[B]HD DVD	 PQ 	 SQ 	 TOTAL [/B]		[B]Blu-ray	 PQ 	 SQ 	 TOTAL [/B]
HighDef	 3.90 	 3.62 	 3.76 		HighDef	 3.97 	 3.82 	 3.90 
HTSpot	 3.93 	 3.85 	 3.89 		HTSpot	 4.06 	 4.26 	 4.16 
DVDTalk	 3.64 	 3.49 	 3.56 		DVDTalk	 3.67 	 3.72 	 3.70 
HTForum	 3.92 	 3.68 	 3.80 		HTForum	 4.31 	 4.09 	 4.20 
UpDisc	 3.98 	 3.80 	 3.89 		UpDisc	 4.02 	 4.13 	 4.08 
[B]Totals	 3.84 	 3.67 	 3.75 [/B]		[B]Totals	 3.95	 3.96 	 3.95 [/B]

I'm sure you guys can figure out the codes at the top.

Anyway I also organized the reviews by studio - here they are:

Picture Quality:

PQ Studio
4.19 Buena Vista/Disney
4.01 Paramount
3.97 Sony
3.96 Warner
3.84 Fox
3.80 Weinstein
3.71 Universal
3.62 Lionsgate


Sound Quality:

SQ Studio
4.37 Buena Vista/Disney
4.12 Sony
4.08 Fox
3.82 Lionsgate
3.81 Paramount
3.66 Warner
3.63 Universal
3.63 Weinstein

But there are still no players that output DD+, DTHD or DTS-HD in bitstream form and still no way at all to listen to a DTS-HD audio track!

Incorrect, a BD-P1400 Blu-ray player from Samsung hooked up to an Onkyo 605, 675, 705, 805, 875 or 905 will give you DTS-HD, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio in bitstream

Blu-ray is WAY behind on <snip> audio formats

That is completely false. There are currently over 3.5 times more Blu-ray discs released with lossless audio on them, whether it be PCM, TrueHD or DTS-MA.
When it comes to picture both formats are equal, but Blu-ray is far superior in the audio department thanks to the studio's choices to support lossless audio tracks consistently.

I have to be able to watch EVERY movie from EVERY studio on that player!

Good luck, this has never happened in the history of home video.

3) The price of each movie needs to be under $20

Most 2-disc DVD sets aren't under $20 and it's been out 10 years. There are plenty of titles available on Amazon from $13.95 and up.

 

[Jim Robbins]

Buy One, Get it done!

Hmm, that's odd. I checked this thread this morning, and I swear that HD-DVD was in the lead... Now Blu-ray is in the lead. ...well, in the lead just behind "not buying", that is. *grin* Is someone cheating on the poll? Seems that HD-DVD was leading by about the same margin since the beginning of the thread, too. Oh well. Doesn't matter, I guess. Most of you aren't buying an HD player, and you should be!! Pick one, get it done, and enjoy your HD tv or projector the right way! Even if you have a 720p set, it's still gonna be great!

 

[lifamily]

My choice is not listed.

I WILL buy when there is a combo player without any reported issues that costs only slighty more then an individual player of either type.

Or I WOULD buy if there were a BluRAy player that also played HD DVD that was truly rated as quality and not the China junk.

There are not yet enough choices of the developing hardware. So I am not willing to spend $1k for something that will be bettered in months.

I'm with you on this one. Being previously burned by the promising DVD-A/SACD formats. I will wait until there is a universal player that incorporates the best that both Blu-ray and HD-DVD have to offer. And hoping Denon will be the manufacturer of that player.

 

[avaserfi]

I'm with you on this one. Being previously burned by the promising DVD-A/SACD formats. I will wait until there is a universal player that incorporates the best that both Blu-ray and HD-DVD have to offer. And hoping Denon will be the manufacturer of that player.

You are likely out of luck there. Denon has already announced Blu-ray support and even if they made a universal player why not buy a couple reasonably priced universal players and have HD content throughout your house? Denon's Blu-ray player was announced with an MSRP of $2000 you could get two quality universal players for that kind of money .

 

[stato]

no, not yet. we have all been burned before... have we not..?
just can't see enough benefit in it for me yet with either format. i am more into audio than movies and would love to see as much importance put into that by the powers that be. give me a better cd player .. thats what i want.

 

[Audioholics]

Hmm, that's odd. I checked this thread this morning, and I swear that HD-DVD was in the lead... Now Blu-ray is in the lead. ...well, in the lead just behind "not buying", that is. Is someone cheating on the poll? Seems that HD-DVD was leading by about the same margin since the beginning of the thread, too. Oh well. Doesn't matter, I guess.

Someone posted a link at blu-ray.com accusing me/us of being pro-HD DVD. As a result there was an influx of votes - most from people who already own BD drives... Oh well, so much for my objective poll.

I think the main problem is that I correctly identify generic High-definition DVDs as "HD-DVD" and most people assume I'm talking about HD DVD (the format) all the time. As for being biased, an accusation coming from blu-ray.com doesn't lend itself to very much credibility. I don't know how many times I have to say it: I BELIEVE BOTH FORMATS WILL ULTIMATELY FAIL AS NICHE MARKETS. I'm not sure how that qualifies as pro-HD DVD...

 

[Electone]

Format neutrality is the way to go

I want to become format neutral this Fall or Winter. But, the major obstacle is Blu-ray's prohibitive pricing. HD DVD has a much easier price access point and I believe that as more people go shopping this holiday season, they will choose the cheaper alternative.

 

[j_garcia]

People keep talking about pricing, but I don't see it. Just because Sony didn't put out a stripped down player that only did 1080i for $299 that means there is a big price discrepancy? I'll spend the extra money.

I know it isn't media either, because the pricing for those is identical. HD-DVD says it is less expensive to produce their discs, well then why do the discs cost the same as Blu-ray?

 

[Audioholics]

Remember that with a proper display, 1080i/60 is identical - in the final analysis - to 1080p/30. The actual source on most BD and HD DVD discs is 1080p/24.

A bad display can make almost anything look bad, so I'm not so interested in the exceptions 1080i can deliver.

 

[Audioholics]

I know it isn't media either, because the pricing for those is identical. HD-DVD says it is less expensive to produce their discs, well then why do the discs cost the same as Blu-ray?

It costs less to manufacture, so the studios get more money on the same software than on BD.

They never promised to pass the savings on to the consumer. They are too busy (right now) using it as incentive to get studios to swing towards HD DVD.

"Look, you make more money per disc!"

 

[j_garcia]

I know 1080p isn't really an earth shattering development, but I don't think the average consumer, or even the average big box store salesperson, really knows what to look for beyond the highest available. If I want a TV (which I am in the market for in the near future here), I am going to buy a 1080p set because that is the highest resolution available and my sources already support it. J6P isn't going to say "Well, I can get a good enough picture out of 1080i" because he doesn't even know the difference; he just buys 1080p because that is what the salesperson tells him is the cream of the crop so he can brag to his friends.

I am running 1080i right now myself and it already looks excellent though; I just need a bigger screen.

 

[Exit]

Not Enough Bang for the Buck for the Average Person.

I have a PS3 Blueray (bought for gaming by my son) and a Samsung DVDHD850 upscaling DVD and there is not enough improvement in high definition DVDs to justify the cost for an average person (me) at the present time and with current prices. I have Dish satelite systems and there is a dramatic improvement from standard TV to 1080i HDTV that any non-hobbiest can see and appreciate. By comparison, the change from upconverting DVD to Blueray is just perceptible and only if you do an A/B comparison. Try sliding the true costs of converting your video systems to high definition DVD by your significant other based on better picture quality and see if it flies. I have a 61" 1080i Samsung DLP and you have to look really close to notice a slight improvement in details. Maybe with a high end projector with a larger screen you could appreciate the differences better, but really people in that category are far above the average consumer price range and don't really count when gauging mass market acceptance of new technologies.

I compared a regular DVD and Blueray DVD of Pirates of the Caribbean and there is just a slight improvement in detail with Blueray. It is about like the difference in photographs posted by dobyblue. In them you can make out the car's license plate numbers in Blueray vs. what is an acceptable image for standard DVD. How much is reading that license plate number worth to you? As an average person, I would wait for the format war to end, the price of the high definition players to reach $150 or less and the price of high definition DVDs to reach $20 or less. Even then, as an average person with competing demands on your money, it would still be hard to slide high definition DVD upgrades past your significant other.

I usually rent DVDs from Blockbuster. Most of their Blueray disks are older movies which I have already seen in regular DVD. The newer releases are seldom in stock. Also, I often can not watch the main home theater because my kids are studying and the sound carries through the walls in our house or they are using the great room. I end up renting regular DVDs and watching them on a 10" portable with headphones. How many other people end up watching portables or older systems in other rooms besides their home theater? If so high definiition disks don't make sense unless you want to upgrade the other systems in your house; because the new high definition disks don't play on standard DVD players (hypothetically maybe they could have been made to play at lower resolution on older equipment, but then the real point is to spend money upgrading everything - guess again). Upgrading video systems for me means three more HDTVs, three more high definition DVD players and giving up the portable 10" player. (The 10" portable probably couldn't be made to display 1080i at its small screen size. If you notice the smaller HDTV sets are mostly 750p because its harder to fit 1080i/p into a small screen). Considering your home from a total video systems view, add up the costs of conversion to the new technologies and you can see where an average consumer is coming from. I just happen to have temporary use of the PS3 Blueray by accident, more or less. If my son was not an avid gamer, we wouldn't have that and in fact I can't cost justify adding a dedicated high definition DVD player to my home theater system at this time.

 

[j_garcia]

Blu-ray not BLUE. (it is a pet peeve, so sue me)

I don't have to look close at all, there is a VERY noticeable difference between upscaled DVD and Blu-ray. With the best discs, it isn't even close. It obviously depends on your specific setup as well as having proper calibration of said system, but it doesn't take any effort at all on my 1080i display to see the glaring difference. Not ALL discs however are a vast improvement over the existing DVD versions, so it also depends considerably on the movie in question.

Pirates of the Carribean is actually one of the better BDs (the second one is one of the few that received highest video ranking) out there, so I would say it is something other than the player that is responsible for what you are seeing. I had to recalibrate for the PS3 because it isn't a perfect player, but it is substantially different from my calibrated levels for my Denon.

 

[Exit]

High Definition DVD Cost-Justification Revisited

J Garcia I appreciate your viewpoint on high definition DVDs. From your rig description and the fact that you calibrate your HDTV at all puts you above the average consumer. I didn’t recalibrate for the PS3 but I did calibrate for Samsung DVDHD850 upscaling DVD player. (That calibration probably puts me above the average consumer too.) I think the fact that a person reads Audioholics and the forums puts them above the average consumer in A/V knowledge. I think the average consumer (me) buys at big box stores on sale and doesn’t shop at audio salons in general, but may buy over the internet components seen/heard in the big box stores or those rated well by multiple internet/magazine reviewers. You can do pretty well at the big box stores if you stay towards the top of the line (i.e. top Yamaha amplifiers for example - who needs more than 120 Watts per channel conservatively rated at low distortion for a 5.1 system where the speakers are not reproducing much bass below the 80Hz cutoff for the subwoofer.)

My point of view in the previous post is based on the value you attach to the high definition DVD improvement over upscaling DVD. As in a lot of situations, it is not a hobbyist’s point of view that counts, but the spouses. I don’t think my wife would recognize and appreciate the picture quality difference with a high definition DVD player over our upscaling DVD player for the money considering our priorities (especially considering the total household A/V systems approach I mentioned). Even the upgrade from standard Dish network to 1080i HD, which was more dramatic, is only minimally appreciated by my wife. Most Dish channels we watch are still standard definition and many look pretty crappy on our 61” HDTV, but the upscaling DVD picture looks pretty good (or good enough) on our 61” HDTV. (The purchase of the 61” HDTV is now, well after the fact, finally appreciated by my wife.) As far as priorities go, we both see two college tuitions at a minimum of $40K each over the next six years plus the need to replace the kitchen and bathroom floors and buy a car for my daughter on a $60K annual income. My cars are a 95 Buick, a 2002 Echo and an 86 Nova all with around 85,000 miles. We don’t plan on buying replacements for at least 10 years. It is from this income and priority perspective that I consider myself close to an average consumer and I contend high definition DVD players don’t have enough bang for the buck to cost justify.

In spite of this relatively average income, I have over a period of twenty years assembled a fairly decent home theater. The investment breaks down into Video: $4700, Audio $3555, Furnishings $2925, Total $11, 179. I use our great room because I don’t have the money to create a dedicated home theater the way I would like it. I have the basement space and layout for one though. I want a good subwoofer (i.e. SVS PB12+2 about $1500) for a large great room (8000 cubic feet open layout) before I want a high definition DVD player(s). I have already purchased a BFD for it and use it with my old subwoofer. It will probably be years before I get this subwoofer because it also does not cost justify because I don’t get to use the audio portion of my home theater much because of the kids studying or just general complaints from the family. I usually have to have the volume very low when I watch the HDTV and the built-in speakers are clearer to hear dialog at low volumes. In about six years when the kids move out (maybe), I might finally get to use the audio portion of my home theater more often and then I might pick up a good subwoofer. My wife might still object to the low bass of a PB12+2 (which I want) so that idea may not work out so well either. In any event, I am just trying to give a perspective of a more average consumer regarding adoption of new high definition DVD technologies. Most of the audience of Audioholics I believe are more affluent than the average income person and it is the average income people who determine whether a technology goes mass market or not.