Are You An Audiophile? Ha! Not according to this article...

[shadyJ]

I think that localization of a near-field placement can be reduced by putting the sub directly behind or in front of the listener where the sound hits the ears at the same time. Supposedly the subwoofer frequencies are non-localizable, but I have always felt a sense of where they are coming from in certain situations. I have always felt that near-field can have that localizing effect if not done correctly, and I have been experimenting with it for years. This is not hard science, jut my own experiences.

 

[Bucknekked]

I think that localization of a near-field placement can be reduced by putting the sub directly behind or in front of the listener where the sound hits the ears at the same time. Supposedly the subwoofer frequencies are non-localizable, but I have always felt a sense of where they are coming from in certain situations. I have always felt that near-field can have that localizing effect if not done correctly, and I have been experimenting with it for years. This is not hard science, jut my own experiences.

I have worked on speaker placement long and hard in my little audio room. My near field listening room provides rich reward for a well placed system. Miss by a little, miss by a lot in my room.

The subwoofer is a great example. Its always been on the left wall, in phase with the L & R mains. When I installed the Songtowers, that won't work anymore. So I took the sub completely out of the system initially and did away with it. While the sound was pretty dang great, it still lacked that special something a sub can bring to the part. So I brought it back : right behind the single listening chair, dead centered on the listening position.

As Pogre can attest, you can't tell there is a sub in the room from a directional point of view. But that front firing sub , firing right in to your body, absolutely lights up the lower range right in your chest when the music presents it. No directionality at all. But that little sub punches way beyond its weight in that location.
Move it just a smidgen, and things start getting wobbly as you suggest.

Pogre is a subwoofer guru. His twin HSU 15's qualify him to speak on the subject. I believe he was pretty impressed today. His subs are awesome with a capital A.

 

[Pogre]

I just got back from Pogre's house where we auditioned the beautifully done system he has assembled there. I think I can say with some conviction that we don't meet anyone's definition of audiophile but our own! We are music enthusiasts and proud owners of cool equipment. Not one expensive cable in either household.

Pogre was gracious enough to open his home to an audition of the system he has assembled and its an amazing experience to be able to listen to someone elses efforts and contrast them with your own. For those who have seen his system, its visually stunning. Pogre should post some pictures here for those who haven't seen it. It would be hard to overstate the visual impact of his twin HSU 15" subs. As hulking as they are to look at, they are perfectly tuned and adjusted to listen to.

It was an audio pleasure to demo a few tunes on someone elses system as they have labored to make it work for them. His SVS speakers do a fantastic job with being neutral and presenting every inch of music that's in a song. I really enjoyed the day today. Thanks Pogre !

I missed your post earlier!

And I just realized I didn't give the Songtowers any love... they're also visually striking. Every inch of those cabinets are treated with love. I loved the grain, I loved the color. They're not as visually imposing as my Ultra Towers, but they're every bit as gorgeous. I'm also very impressed with their sound. I think rendering a human voice is where they really shine, but they rocked out appropriately with some of my harder selections too. I'd love to hear them in my house now.

Which brings up rooms. It's not really apples to apples because our rooms are drastically different. Buck is in a 10x10x10 room and I have a great room layout where my system is and able to get 11' between my mains and sit 13' away from them. I have a lot more space and Buck has an awesome nearfield setup. It was 2 different experiences. I really think both speakers share more in common than not. I'd be happy with either.

*Edit: Forgot the pic!

 

[Beave]

OK, but vinyl, if recorded well, can produce the harmonics that exceed the upper limit of a recording made using the 44.1K sampling rate and that does matter. The filtering at that frequency is steep enough that it can cause harshness due to phase shift and it's the reason for over-sampling and when the harmonics from some instruments are missing and compared with a recording that contains them, it's noticeable.

Disclaimer- these comments in no way mean that I'm a die-hard vinyl hipster and go around telling people that no digital format is the end-all, be-all. All rights reserved, prices and specifications subject to change without notice, objects in the mirror may be closer than they appear, results of this survey may not be typical, may cause weight gain, blindness, lethargy, runny nose, irritability, constipation and sleepwalking. All comments made by a non-paid spokesman.

That's impressive that you can still hear up to around 20kHz or higher.

Even more impressive that you can hear phase shifts at that high of a frequency. A 20kHz tone has a wavelength of 17mm, right? How have you determined that you can hear phase shifts at that range?

The reason for oversampling is that the analog filter requirements get much easier (CHEAPER).

 

[highfigh]

That's impressive that you can still hear up to around 20kHz or higher.

Even more impressive that you can hear phase shifts at that high of a frequency. A 20kHz tone has a wavelength of 17mm, right? How have you determined that you can hear phase shifts at that range?

The reason for oversampling is that the analog filter requirements get much easier (CHEAPER).

And the slope isn't as steep, which is where the phase shift comes. It's apparent as harshness, unless the differences I have heard between players is due to the DAC (which many disagree with) and other associated circuitry. If the shift varies over time, it can be similar to the sound of a popular guitar effect, just in a higher register.

 

[Beave]

The slope of the filter not being as steep means the filter is lower order, which means the filter has fewer parts, which means the filter is cheaper. I worked on DACs and their outputs as my job for many years. The cost of the output filter dropped dramatically when oversampling DACs came around.

With all due respect, I am skeptical of your claim to be able to hear phase shift at such high frequencies (the audibility of phase shift at ANY frequency is oft over-stated, but certainly so at the very top). I strongly suspect the differences you have heard are due to other factors.

I have seen no DACs for which the phase shift varied over time (excepting the *tiny* variations one might find as component temperatures varies).

 

[Bucknekked]

Which brings up rooms. It's not really apples to apples because our rooms are drastically different. B. I really think both speakers share more in common than not. I'd be happy with either.
*Edit: Forgot the pic!
View attachment 21755

Pogre
I would agree with your assessment. The speakers are more similar than different. Both excellent. And the rooms couldn't be different. In fact, I think you could say that about comparing any room to my room. Its pretty unique.

For all the AH folks out there who are reading this mutual admiration society posting, you can take some joy in the fact that many of you helped us make our choices of speakers. There were voices that helped Pogre with the SVS Ultras', and the HSU . Bravo. Great choice for his big space and musical choices. Those that helped me choose the Songtowers you too get a "Bravo". For my specialized space, they really are a wonderful match.

That's an aspect that is often overlooked on this forum: the wide ranging number of great pieces of advice. There doesn't seem to be "groupthink" here where just one or two brands get all the love. Our two rooms, and musical libraries, are different. We both got advice tailored to our situation which let us make two very different but great fitting choices. Pogres system in that big room sounds wonderful. I am heavily biased, but in my little near field room, I think it sounds like the best system I have ever owned.

 

[MrBoat]

Buck, that's some of those audio "cork sniffers" that TLS was talking about.

Besides, we're not audiophiles, we're "audioholics". Those idjits can actually help what they're into. We can't.

 

[Bucknekked]

Buck, that's some of those audio "cork sniffers" that TLS was talking about.

Besides, we're not audiophiles, we're "audioholics". Those idjits can actually help what they're into. We can't.

I love that quote "audio cork sniffers". I my mind, there's an automatic translation everytime I see it.
"Audio butt sniffers" is what my brain says every time I see the quote.

I shall agree wholeheartedly with your assessment that we are audioholics. I happen to be an "audio Philistine" as well according to the article. Somehow I have to marry that title up to this forum. That may take me some time. I actually enjoy the audio Philistine title. Maybe we could petition the great guru's who run the AH website and get them to include it in the nickname rotation they use on our Avatars.

@jinjuku : whaddya say? Can you add an avatar nickname of "Audio Philistine" to the mix? I volunteer to be the first to try it out. You can stick it on me anytime.

 

[MrBoat]

I love that quote "audio cork sniffers". I my mind, there's an automatic translation everytime I see it.
"Audio butt sniffers" is what my brain says every time I see the quote.

I shall agree wholeheartedly with your assessment that we are audioholics. I happen to be an "audio Philistine" as well according to the article. Somehow I have to marry that title up to this forum. That may take me some time. I actually enjoy the audio Philistine title. Maybe we could petition the great guru's who run the AH website and get them to include it in the nickname rotation they use on our Avatars.

@jinjuku : whaddya say? Can you add an avatar nickname of "Audio Philistine" to the mix? I volunteer to be the first to try it out. You can stick it on me anytime.

What gets me with some of those that manage to classify such things, is that they are relative newbs to the sport with a decade or less of exposure, having only qualified themselves by either what they have read (and memorized) and their ability to repeat it, and it's more modern, internet associations.

I don't think I am an audiophile. I'm not real crazy about any associative personality traits with "phile" on the end of it, especially considering it's more mainstream uses.

I'd almost prefer something along the lines of; audioslut, or whore.

 

[Bucknekked]

What gets me with some of those that manage to classify such things, is that they are relative newbs to the sport with a decade or less of exposure, having only qualified themselves by either what they have read (and memorized) and their ability to repeat it, and it's more modern, internet associations.

I don't think I am an audiophile. I'm not real crazy about any associative personality traits with "phile" on the end of it, especially considering it's more mainstream uses.

I'd almost prefer something along the lines of; audioslut, or whore.

A man after my own heart. Nicely phrased.
May your big woofers always break wind.

 

[sterling shoote]

Here's our conundrum friends, audiophiles are liberals who live in a world where emotion trumps facts. Thing is, music is all about emotion; and thus, debating an audiophile can be a challenge when the debate takes a turn to how particular equipment supports the feeling of the sound. In that argument the audiophile always wins, since none can deny that it is indeed equipment delivering the sound; and, equipment can be judged as doing its job for better or worse by individual evaluation. If the audiophile says a particular piece of equipment, like hi-end cables, makes the music sound better how can anyone argue the sound does not sound better. The only way to debunk the audiophile is to get him to submit to double blind testing and reveal or expose his errors.

 

[Steve81]

1. No, but I do own a pair that is priced at 199.95, so maybe borderline?

2. No.

3. No.

4. I never owned any vinyl.

5. I'm familiar with the acoustics of my main listening space, but I spend plenty of time there listening, so it'd be hard to ignore. A clap test prior to its reconstruction before it had carpeting was impressively resonant.

6. No.

7. My speakers are located where they need to be, not hidden away.

8. Yes.

9. No.

10. No.

Truth be told, I've never claimed to be an audiophile. Depending on who you ask, I'm an HT enthusiast who takes some pleasure in learning about the technical aspects of audio reproduction, or a jackass with lousy taste in music and movies who thinks he knows it all.

 

[Pogre]

What if you drive to someone's house you've never met in person, then have them over to your house just to listen to a sound system and call it "fun"?

 

[2channel lover]

I just got back from Buck's house a little while ago and I didn't see 1 expensive cable. pft.

Thanks for opening your door to me Buck! I had a lot of fun and your system sounds amazing. I was especially impressed with the nearfield sub firing into the back of the chair. I always thought there would be localization issues with that placement, but not at all.

Good deal.

Now you see why I want that 3rd one...

 

[NINaudio]

No to 1-4, and 6. I do believe you need at least a certain basic quality level for your cables and I tend to go for a larger gauge than "needed".

for 5, I definitely notice when concert venues have poor acoustics, so is that a maybe?

And yes for 7-10. I make no effort to hide my speakers and no apologies for them. I'm an engineering physics major who's always loved audio, so I know what slew rate is. I was just talking about bit-rates and lossless compression last night. lol I do have a number of Nine Inch Nails imports from Japan and Australia that had different/unreleased stuff compared to the US versions.

Having said that, I've always kinda felt that I was a low level audiophile, with a giant leaning towards the realm of being a basshead.

 

[2channel lover]

1. yes, HiFiman 400i, great pair of cans. Now that mother-in-law has moved out and I can crank my system I don't listen to the cans as much.

2. No, like the concept, but I have so much music that I own redbook quality or better that I'm not there yet.

3. Interconnects, no...Speaker cable, awg/length does matter to some degree on long runs especially

4. No. I do regret getting rid of my album collection, but I'm too invested in digital now, not turning back.

6. In general no, but there are a few CDs I don't play much anymore because the system does make bad recordings sound bad.

8. Google is your friend.

 

[shadyJ]

Here's our conundrum friends, audiophiles are liberals who live in a world where emotion trumps facts.

I don't see how you can claim liberals allow emotions to over-rule objective reality, especially in a sentence with the word 'trump' in it.

 

[yepimonfire]

Too much emphasis on the price of items and not enough on the sonics in that quiz. An "audiophile" is someone who likes to listen to music on a sound system whose performance he or she enjoys. That has nothing to do with price, and everything to do with performance. The two are not the same, just like price does not equal value.

The only other thing I would add is there is no such thing as an "audiophile speaker" or ~amplifier or ~power cord, or ... well you get the idea. Audiophiles are people, not components or accessories.

100% agree on the price. Especially with headphones. When it comes to speakers, some of the most expensive and exotic designs are nothing more than hype. Modern technology and manufacturing had enabled those with the most limited budgets to enjoy very high quality systems for a low price. There are really good speakers in the under $500 range that could outperform speakers costing 4x as much. Think back to the infinity primus series. Obviously, all budget speakers will require cost cutting measures, but it's where that cost cut comes from that determines the quality. Likewise, a pair of speakers costing 20k may have exotic wood veneers, which add 1000s to the price tag, but nothing to the sound quality.

Headphones are another story. Looking at response graphs and distortion measurements of headphones on headroom, one will quickly find the pricier "audiophile grade" headphones perform much worse than a pair of well designed studio headphones. I'm fairly certain several companies will also use the exact same components for more expensive models, yet charge a higher price, Grado comes to mind. Several of their headphones use identical drivers, and display identical frequency response curves, but might have bigger ear cups, nicer wood, etc.

Expensive amplifiers, marketed with brochures filled with useless terminology, expensive DACs, or worse, "magic" USB cables to connect them, are everywhere.

With modern solid state amps, and digital recording/playback mediums, the major determining factor in sound quality is the speakers themselves. The cheapest laptop DAC paired with the lousiest op-amp will sound exactly the same so long as it has an acceptable SNR and it isn't driven into distortion.

Sent from my 5065N using Tapatalk

 

[Bucknekked]

What if you drive to someone's house you've never met in person, then have them over to your house just to listen to a sound system and call it "fun"?

I think if you engage in doing that, you get called "friends".