Are Surge Protectors bunk or beneficial?

lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I've created this thread in hopes of giving Westom(the bunk side) a chance to have a cordial discussion of this topic. I hope each of you will carefully review your post and make it as plain, concise and cited as possible. Defining and explaining are necessary since much of our audience is not in the engineering profession.

For simplicity sake I'll link this description of a surge protector for our readers benefit.
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/surge-protector.htm

I love this site and find it quite informative.

To summarize a surge protector basically takes the extra power coming in and sends it back down the ground line.

Please no long winded sermons we have many ADD folks here. :)
 
W

westom

Audioholic
For simplicity sake I'll link this description of a surge protector for our readers benefit.
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/surge-protector.htm
Absolutely embarassing is that one would recommend that site. Whereas other articles may be accurate, the cited HowStuffWorks article is chock full or myths, lies, and outright deceit. In fact, when it appeared in Wikipedia, it was quickly removed as totally inaccurate.

How inaccurate? Just the first few pages were challenged because virtually every page was technically incorrect. For eample, 17 Nov 2003 entitled "Inside a surge protector" in rec.radio.shortwave at:
http://tinyurl.com/2fy7u

Same errors confronted in the 17th post on 1 Aug entitled "Computer problem need help" at:
http://tinyurl.com/yqyah

Multiple posters also confront "HowStuffWorks" myths in "Is my surge protector good?" in alt.comp.hardware starting 8 Oct 2002 at:
http://tinyurl.com/3bn64
 
njedpx3

njedpx3

Audioholic General
I used to work with a guy like you once ...

Absolutely embarassing is that one would recommend that site. Whereas other articles may be accurate, the cited HowStuffWorks article is chock full or myths, lies, and outright deceit. In fact, when it appeared in Wikipedia, it was quickly removed as totally inaccurate.

How inaccurate? Just the first few pages were challenged because virtually every page was technically incorrect. For eample, 17 Nov 2003 entitled "Inside a surge protector" in rec.radio.shortwave at:
http://tinyurl.com/2fy7u

Same errors confronted in the 17th post on 1 Aug entitled "Computer problem need help" at:
http://tinyurl.com/yqyah

Multiple posters also confront "HowStuffWorks" myths in "Is my surge protector good?" in alt.comp.hardware starting 8 Oct 2002 at:
http://tinyurl.com/3bn64
he was so intent on correcting spelling and grammar errors, he like you, usually missed the point of any technical discussion. But onthe plus side, his documents looked perfect visually and had no grammar or spelling errors.

Anyway, some sites may not be fully accurate but they usually have pretty good direction and intent. There are many sources that do not always report factual information, for example news reporting on TV :D

Surge protectors can be useful and provide protection if you live in an area that is susectable to weather conditions such as lghting or eletrical grid conditions such as surges, brown outs, etc. If you havecleanpower all the time and/or have nice weather all the time then it is possible a surge protector will do you no good.

Even if you live in an electrical unstable area then your equipment might be able to handle the surges.

A surge protector is kind of like insurance. If you need it , it is really nice to have. Especially if you have ever had a surge fry some of your electrical equipment

I bought two APC H15s when they were on sale for $150 each last year. I installed one in each of my two main systems: den HT and media game room. I have cheaper surge protectors on my garage system and PC desktop workstation. I experienced one pretty good lightning storm that caused surges
and no equipment failures. Did the surge protectors come into to play ? Possibly.

Anyway, some sites may not be fully accurate but they usually have pretty good direction and intent. There are many sources that do not always report factual information, for example news reporting on TV

I will leave it that a surge protector may or may not help you.

Peace to all.

NJ
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Absolutely embarassing is that one would recommend that site. Whereas other articles may be accurate, the cited HowStuffWorks article is chock full or myths, lies, and outright deceit. In fact, when it appeared in Wikipedia, it was quickly removed as totally inaccurate.

How inaccurate? Just the first few pages were challenged because virtually every page was technically incorrect. For eample, 17 Nov 2003 entitled "Inside a surge protector" in rec.radio.shortwave at:
http://tinyurl.com/2fy7u

Same errors confronted in the 17th post on 1 Aug entitled "Computer problem need help" at:
http://tinyurl.com/yqyah

Multiple posters also confront "HowStuffWorks" myths in "Is my surge protector good?" in alt.comp.hardware starting 8 Oct 2002 at:
http://tinyurl.com/3bn64
You are clearly missing the tree for the forest. We aren't here to discuss what's wrong with the HowStuffWorks video.
 
chris357

chris357

Senior Audioholic
if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to see it .. does it still make a sound?

If we look at the name.. "surge suppressor" I dont think they are claiming to stop lightning from close proximity. I also heard that brown outs do more damage than surges anyway so getting a line conditioner or UPS with a line conditioner is going to do more good in the long run. and also protect against the occasional spike

but I'm not speaking from actual technical trianing just hearsay :)

but for the few hundred it costs to buy the protection why not considering we have thousands in our equipment.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
i'm betting that surge protection is very important, i have toasted some appliance (subwoofer included) fuses when plugged directly to the wall, but never when connected to something with surge protection i.e. automatic voltage regulators

of course YMMV, i bought a voltmeter plugged on 24/7 so i can keep an eye on our voltage (industrial area) and i get around 229-230v during the daytime and 240v at night.

line conditioners on the other hand ...
 
Last edited:
S

sparky77

Full Audioholic
I would say surge protectors are benneficial, and not just because I have a whole house surge protector in my circuit box, and surge protectors on all of my expensive electrical items. I haven't had anything fail since I started using the protectors.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
I've lost equipment to surges more than once. I've lost unprotected equipment to strikes that left protected equipment alone. I've also had equipment failure from what seems to have been chronic but small-scale spiking.

I do agree with the recommendation to make sure you have a good ground, because without it the best a surge suppressor can do is be a good circuit breaker.

For computer equipment, I heartily recommend an uninterruptible power supply. I run them on my HT equipment (though I don't have one on my two-channel setup) as well. I've seen some debate over whether dips can damage equipment, though even detractors said dips can damage electrical motors (there's one in my PS3, and one in my receiver with a self-turning knob), so personally I'm "better safe than sorry". Given the propensity for lightning to cause "about a second" outages: having my equipment not reset several times every thunderstorm is worth the cost of a UPS to me.

I'm sure I can next look forward to westom trying to tell me that surges jump open circuits. (well, in fairness, at the extreme they do arc; but that's a very abnormal surge)
 
W

westom

Audioholic
We aren't here to discuss what's wrong with the HowStuffWorks video.
Why did you cite HowStuffWorks as proof? HowStuffWorks promotes the same hearsay that also proved Saddam had WMDs. Even with simplest technical knowledge, the myths, errors, and deception are obvious.

OP asked how many joules should be in his protector. Your informed answer would have stated joules are irrelevant - and then said why with numbers. An informed consumer knows a few hundred joules inside a protector are useless for absorbing hundreds of thousands of joules. You still ignore that damning number. And then you cited HowStuffWorks.

Why cite something so obviously incorrect? Why waste bandwidth with something so flawed? Why are you now trying to distance yourself from what only you recommended?

Why continue to ignore these damning questions? How does that protector stop what three miles of sky could not? Where are those manufacturer specifications that claim to provide surge protection? Why do you not answer the OP's question about joules? Explain how a few hundred joules absorbs a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules. Then have to admit another problem with grossly undersized but obscenely profitable plug-in protectors - the scary pictures:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge Protectors.pdf
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339

What happens when a few hundred joules tries to absorb a surge of hundreds of thousands of joules? See those pictures.

As sparky77 demosntrates, the efffective protector is needed in every house - one 'whole house' protector.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Why did you cite HowStuffWorks as proof? HowStuffWorks promotes the same hearsay that also proved Saddam had WMDs. Even with simplest technical knowledge, the myths, errors, and deception are obvious.

OP asked how many joules should be in his protector. Your informed answer would have stated joules are irrelevant - and then said why with numbers. An informed consumer knows a few hundred joules inside a protector are useless for absorbing hundreds of thousands of joules. You still ignore that damning number. And then you cited HowStuffWorks.

Why cite something so obviously incorrect? Why waste bandwidth with something so flawed? Why are you now trying to distance yourself from what only you recommended?

Why continue to ignore these damning questions? How does that protector stop what three miles of sky could not? Where are those manufacturer specifications that claim to provide surge protection? Why do you not answer the OP's question about joules? Explain how a few hundred joules absorbs a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules. Then have to admit another problem with grossly undersized but obscenely profitable plug-in protectors - the scary pictures:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339

What happens when a few hundred joules tries to absorb a surge of hundreds of thousands of joules? See those pictures.

As sparky77 demosntrates, the efffective protector is needed in every house - one 'whole house' protector.
It was not an argument. The link was provided simply to describe what a surge protector is. You decided to take it as an argument.

Why would you waste bandwidth by linking broken links?
http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge Protectors.pdf

You are not winning anyone over with your tone.

Why not provide some more helpful sources like the one above?
 
W

westom

Audioholic
but for the few hundred it costs to buy the protection why not considering we have thousands in our equipment.
So you spend a few hundred here and a few hundred there. Then it might protect some appliances OR give the surge a destructive path to earth via the electronics.

Or your spend about $1 per appliance so that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage.

All appliances already contain significant protection. The only thing you upgrade is the earthed 'whole house' protector so that the rare surge (maybe once every seven years) does not overwhelm protection in everything. You should never even know the surge existed - by spending tens or 100 times less money. Even the protector must not be damaged by a direct lightning strike - if you are spending less money for the well proven solution.

Yes, we even traced damage to a network of powered off computers. The plug-in protector earthed that surge destructively via the computers. A protector too close to electronics and too far from earth ground simply bypassed the protection already inside every power supply. What kind of protection is that?

Why do you think telcos that suffer 100 surges with each thunderstorm do not waste money on that plug-in protector. Why do they locate every protector as close to earth as possible and up to 50 meters separated from appliances? Even that 50 meters increases the protection.

Meanwhile, what good is that thousands of dollars in electronics once the ineffective protector creates those scary pictures:
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/

Your effective protector costs about $1 per protected appliance - so that even direct lightning strikes do not damage your dishwasher, furnace, dimmer switches, and other expensive electronics. What protects what you need most after a surge - the smoke detector? Only one 'whole house' protector.
 
chris357

chris357

Senior Audioholic
Or your spend about $1 per appliance so that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage.


Meanwhile, what good is that thousands of dollars in electronics once the ineffective protector creates those scary pictures:
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/

Your effective protector costs about $1 per protected appliance - so that even direct lightning strikes do not damage your dishwasher, furnace, dimmer switches, and other expensive electronics. What protects what you need most after a surge - the smoke detector? Only one 'whole house' protector.


so show us this $1 protector..

also those pictures dont really show us anything. they could be isolated incidents where someone spilled water or something on the device and didnt know it.. or some other malfunction happened.

i think there was a water bottle right nect to the surge protector in the first link you sent us.. ;)
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Or your spend about $1 per appliance so that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage.
OK. Show me one.

Here's a scenario. I'm sitting in my breakfast nook talking on my cordless phone. Lightning comes through the window and hits the antennae on my phone. What will save the phone (and preferably me as well).

Nothing protects equipment that has been directly struck (shy of a Faraday cage, but even that's a cheat in that it prevents direct strikes from happening).
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
OK. Show me one.

Here's a scenario. I'm sitting in my breakfast nook talking on my cordless phone. Lightning comes through the window and hits the antennae on my phone. What will save the phone (and preferably me as well).

Nothing protects equipment that has been directly struck (shy of a Faraday cage, but even that's a cheat in that it prevents direct strikes from happening).
You could try to be a better person then there would be less motivation for you to be be struck by lightning. :p

How am I supposed to keep my Projector running without a UPS?
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
You could try to be a better person then there would be less motivation for you to be be struck by lightning. :p
Better than me?!? You ask for a lot :D

How am I supposed to keep my Projector running without a UPS?
I'm getting hit by lightning and you are worried about too little power! :p
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
It seems like this guy is just passionate about the topic not a troll. He's annoying yes, but I wouldn't classify him as a troll. Maybe I'm just gullible. Besides I'm learning more about he topic. It's very interesting.
 
W

westom

Audioholic
so show us this $1 protector..
If you want to deny reality, then distort what was posted. Meanwhile the post actually said:
"Your effective protector costs about $1 per protected appliance - so that even direct lightning strikes do not damage your dishwasher, furnace, dimmer switches, and other expensive electronics."
Read what was posted (reality) rather than entertain your emotions.

Those scary pictures have been observed by most fire departments. Even a NC fire marshal defines the problem - reasons for fire.

However if your emotions need to label others liars, then don't forget to accuse Norma. She posted on 27 Dec 2008 in alt.fiftyplus entitled "The Power Outage":
> Today, the cable company came to replace a wire. Well the cable
> man pulled a wire and somehow yanked loose their "ground" wire.
> The granddaughter on the computer yelled and ran because sparks
> and smoke were coming from the power surge strip.

This problem does not exist because even Fire Departments stage fires to lie? What happens when a 600 joule protector must absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules?

The www.rb2.com citation is but one of many that describe the problem with protectors designed to optiimize on price. A problem when the protector is not designed for protection. When it does not even claim protection in numeric specs.

Listed were many responsible sources of effective protectors for about $1 per protected appliance. Essential to protection is where energy gets dissipated. In every case, a protector is only as effective as its earth ground - where that energy must be absorbed. Too many view protection in terms of a magic box. That magic box is only a connecting device. A device that does nothing if disconnected from what provides protection. As the NIST says on page 17:
> The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding
> is not done properly.

A long list of other citations demonstrate what has been known and well proven for over 100 years. For example QST (the ARRL) in July 2002:
QST July 2002 "Lightning Protection for the Amateur Radio Station - Part 2"
http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/pdf/0207048.pdf
Also in file: QST_LightningProtectionPart2.pdf
> The purpose of the ground connection is to take the energy arriving on the antenna
> feed line cables and control lines (and to a lesser extent on the power and telephone
> lines) and give it a path back to the earth, our energy sink. The impedance of the
> ground connection should be low so the energy prefers this path and is dispersed
> harmlessly. To achieve a low impedance the ground connection needs to be short
> (distance), straight, and wide. ...
> The goal is to make the ground path leading away from the SPGP more desirable
> than any other path.

Kenneth Schneider PhD writes:
> As previously mentioned, the connection to earth ground can not be over emphasized. ...
>Conceptually, lightning protection devices are switches to ground. Once a threatening
> surge is detected, a lightning protection device grounds the incoming signal
> connection point of the equipment being protected. Thus, redirecting the threatening
> surge on a path-of-least resistance (impedance) to ground where it is absorbed.
>Any lightning protection device must be composed of two "subsystems," a switch
> which is essentially some type of switching circuitry and a good ground connection
> -to allow dissipation of the surge energy. The switch, of course, dominates the design
> and the cost. Yet, the need for a good ground connection can not be emphasized
> enough. Computer equipment has been damaged by lightning, not because of the
> absence of a protection device, but because inadequate attention was paid to grounding
> the device properly.


From www.lightningsafety.com
> 3. Bonding
> Without proper bonding, all other elements of the LPs are useless. Bonding
> of all metallic conductors in a dispatch facility assures everything is at equal
> potential. When lightning strikes, all grounded equipment will rise and fall equipotentially.
> This eliminates the unequal voltages in separate sensitive signal and data systems.
> Bonding should connect all conductors to the same "Mother Earth." ... Not convinced
> bonding is important? Check out NEC 250.90 through 250.106 for more details.
> 4. Grounding
> Low-resistance grounding provides an efficient destination for the
> "lightning beast." If your site soils are composed of sand or rock, they are resistive,
> not conductive. If your surrounding soils are of clay or dirt, they may be conductive.
> "Good grounds" are achieved by volumetric efficiencies. We recommend buried
> bare 4/0 copper wire – the so called ring electrode or ring ground.
> Cadwelding© security fences, tower legs, and other adjacent metallics to the buried
> ring will improve grounding. NEC 250 describes other grounding designs such as
> rods, plates, water pipes (beware of plastic pipes underground), metal frame
> of buildings, and concrete-encased electrodes. Choose your grounding design
> based upon localized conditions and the amount of available real estate at your
> location. NEC 250.56 suggests a target earth resistivity number of 25 ohms.
> Lower is better.


Electrical Code vs. Good RF Grounding by K9KJM (Bill Otten) on November 22, 2003
> Those who say "nothing will withstand a direct lightning strike" are very misinformed.
> My towers take direct lightning hits most every big storm. So do most all tall
> commercial towers. With NO damage!


An ABB video demonstrates surge protection:
http://tinyurl.com/2bwlhn


MIL-STD-188-124B: "Grounding, Bonding and Shielding"
> The facility ground system forms a direct path of known low voltage impedance
> between earth and the various power and communications equipments. This
> effectively minimizes voltage differentials on the ground plane which exceed
> a value that will produce noise or interference to communications circuits. ...
> The resistance to earth of the earth electrode subsystem should not exceed 10
> ohms at fixed permanent facilities.


A tutorial on some of the basics:
http://members.cox.net/pc-usa/station/grounding.htm
"Fundamentals on Lightning Protection Grounding and Surge Suppression"
 
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