Are High End CD Players Overated?

[Nick250]

The initial question was the improvement in sound worth ditching his current mass market player to purchase a six thousand dollar player.

No one doubted that the analog sectons of CD players could be made to sound like the manufacturer wants but is that "true" sound and is it worth six thousand dollars?

So, with Gene's interjection of room acoustics I guess this changes the slant somewhat. Perhaps to something like this.

Which is the most cost effective way of improving my sound? Upgrading my mass market CD player to one costing six thousand dollars or optimizing my speaker placment and/or room interaction?

And, your take is?

IMHO no contest, room acoustics.

 

[WmAx]

Which is the most cost effective way of improving my sound? Upgrading my mass market CD player to one costing six thousand dollars or optimizing my speaker placment and/or room interaction?

And, your take is?

3rd option: Keep using same CD player, optimize room/speaker setup AND add a Behringer DCX2496 or DEQ2496 to precisely control the source signal as you wish. By the way, The DCX and DEQ also provide for critical aid in room correction.

-Chris

 

[Caesar]

Mellow out

Jesus all I wanted was a little friendly advice and opinions. I didn't wish to have this turn into a petty catfight among some of the participants!

 

[Tempest]

Enough!

mtrycrafts,

I'm sorry to say this, but now I will be a snob. I'm sorry you can't hear the difference and obviously don't want to hear the difference. Who did the listening in these tests you talk about? People. People listen for different things out of their music. Some hear more detail than others. Some have better hearing than others. Some are trained to hear more detail and subtlety out of music than others. That's the reality of the situation. All I was giving was my experience and opinion; you come off defensive/paranoid.

If I did do all the blindfold test with my friends, you would some up with some other excuse not to at least consider anything else than what you are convinced of. You are the biased one and you rely on what other people say instead of your own experiences.

 

[shokhead]

So your saying that a $100 CD player and a 1K CD player hooked up through the digital connection will sound different playing the same CD with the same reciever?

 

[Sleestack]

I totally believe that different CD players can sound different when using their analog connections b/c different DACs definitely produce different sound. I'm very skeptical about differences in sound when using digital connections as I don't understand how the CD player could affect any differences. For those of you who say that you hear differencs in high end players, am I right in assuming that you are talking about setups where you are using an anlog connection?

 

[MacManNM]

The Truth.

Different CD players will sound different. The more expensive units will tend to have tighter tolerance components, better quieter power supplies, and sharper roll off anti-alias filters. All of these will help improve the overall output of the unit. Anyone who thinks all players sound the same is totally clueless. Go buy a wave radio!

 

[Sleestack]

Different CD players will sound different. The more expensive units will tend to have tighter tolerance components, better quieter power supplies, and sharper roll off anti-alias filters. All of these will help improve the overall output of the unit. Anyone who thinks all players sound the same is totally clueless. Go buy a wave radio!

Again, if you are using a digital output, how exactly do those things make a difference? Aren't they all sending the same encoded material? It is just that I have run everything from a $120 DVD player up to a $1500 CD player through my external DAC using a digitial connection, and they all sound the same to me.

 

[MacManNM]

Again, if you are using a digital output, how exactly do those things make a difference? Aren't they all sending the same encoded material? It is just that I have run everything from a $120 DVD player up to a $1500 CD player through my external DAC using a digitial connection, and they all sound the same to me.

And they will sound almost identical when using an external DAC. But, why would someone spend 3K on a player and use an external DAC?

 

[Sleestack]

And they will sound almost identical when using an external DAC. But, why would someone spend 3K on a player and use an external DAC?

Why would they sound almost identical and not identical. I'm not trying to be smartass. I really want to know as I am no expert on the matter.

As for why someone would use an external DAC when purchasing a $3000 CD player, my opinion would be that it would be a waste of money. Nevertheless someone who spend that much on a CD player probably also has a top notch preamp or DAC that they might prefer to the one in the CD player. I guess I'm questioning why someone would spend that much on a CD player when you can get more vesratitliy and top notch sound quality using a high quality external DAC. Alot of expert reviews I read on external DACs seem to ask the same question.

I am particularly interested in this subject b/c I primarly care about 2 channel music (eventhough I have a dedicated HT setup). I use a $2500 headphone amp for alot of my listening and do care about my sources. I thought about buying a high end Musical Fidelity CD player, but was informed that a solid CD transport (e.g. Music Hall) coupled with a MF DAC and tube buffer would get me to the same place. In the end I ended up sepnding about the same amount, but am able to use the DAC for multiple digital sources and the tube buffer to add some tube warmth for all of my 2 channel music.

 

[MacManNM]

Why would they sound almost identical and not identical. I'm not trying to be smartass. I really want to know as I am no expert on the matter.

Power supply, pickup electronics, clock accuracy.

As for why someone would use an external DAC when purchasing a $3000 CD player, my opinion would be that it would be a waste of money. Nevertheless someone who spend that much on a CD player probably also has a top notch preamp or DAC that they might prefer to the one in the CD player. I guess I'm questioning why someone would spend that much on a CD player when you can get more vesratitliy and top notch sound quality using a high quality external DAC. Alot of expert reviews I read on external DACs seem to ask the same quetion.

Some people (myself included) prefer older equipment. I believe the quality of my C-28 is as good or better than most of the units made today. I don’t want HF electronics in my preamp, nor do I want an external DAC taking up space, that has no real improvement in quality.

 

[Sleestack]

Power supply, pickup electronics, clock accuracy.

I guess that is where I am a bit confused. My understanding was that a digital signal either gets there or it doesn't. If it doesn't you simply get no sound (or no picture in the case of satellite TV). I thought with digital signals, it is one or the either...i.e. it gets transmitted or it doesn't. It isn't like cheap players transmit a digital signal that is missing information. I'm not sure I understand how a power supply could affect digitally encoded information... but again, I'm no expert.

 

[MacManNM]

I guess that is where I am a bit confused. My understanding was that a digital signal either gets there or it doesn't. If it doesn't you simply get no sound (or no picture in the case of satellite TV). I thought with digital signals, it is one or the either...i.e. it gets transmitted or it doesn't. It isn't like cheap players transmit a digital signal that is missing information. I'm not sure I understand how a power supply could affect digitally encoded information... but again, I'm no expert.

It can. A digital signal still has to have accurate timing. 1’s and 0’s can be confused if there is not enough S/N on the digital signal. Ever notice how some CD players can play a scratched disk and some cant? Better pickup electronics.

 

[shokhead]

Why would they sound almost identical and not identical. I'm not trying to be smartass. I really want to know as I am no expert on the matter.

As for why someone would use an external DAC when purchasing a $3000 CD player, my opinion would be that it would be a waste of money. Nevertheless someone who spend that much on a CD player probably also has a top notch preamp or DAC that they might prefer to the one in the CD player. I guess I'm questioning why someone would spend that much on a CD player when you can get more vesratitliy and top notch sound quality using a high quality external DAC. Alot of expert reviews I read on external DACs seem to ask the same question.

I am particularly interested in this subject b/c I primarly care about 2 channel music (eventhough I have a dedicated HT setup). I use a $2500 headphone amp for alot of my listening and do care about my sources. I thought about buying a high end Musical Fidelity CD player, but was informed that a solid CD transport (e.g. Music Hall) coupled with a MF DAC and tube buffer would get me to the same place. In the end I ended up sepnding about the same amount, but am able to use the DAC for multiple digital sources and the tube buffer to add some tube warmth for all of my 2 channel music.

When using the digital connection,its not doing anything inside the player but send the signal to the reciever to do all the magic stuff. If you use the analog,its the other way around and your just using the volume on the reciever,more or less.

 

[Sleestack]

It can. A digital signal still has to have accurate timing. 1’s and 0’s can be confused if there is not enough S/N on the digital signal. Ever notice how some CD players can play a scratched disk and some cant? Better pickup electronics.

I have noticed that. Extremely cheap players are very sensitive to scratches.

That being said, do you think if you ran a $3000 player and a $500 player through the same DAC using digital connections, you could tell the difference in a blind test? I know I couldn't, but I'm wondering what exactly other people are hearing. That is, if the more expensive player has more accurate timing, how does that affect playback of the digital source?

 

[tbewick]

In a book I read by Rodger Driscoll, who has quite an impressive CV (lecturer, reviewer for Gramophone, consultant for Philips) 'Practical Hi-fi Sound', the major limiting factor are the speakers in most hi-fi systems.

Certainly things sound much better through headphones on my system, even though I use reasonable budget speakers (B&W DM601's).

This would lead me to believe that the CD player component is not the limiting factor in a hi-fi system, unless you're using speakers of distortion <0.1% (which maybe electrostatic speakers are capable of?). This is assuming that CD players do not introduce some distortion that cannot be measured, which of course would change things, and maybe explain why more expensive CD players are thought to sound better by some people.

 

[Sleestack]

When using the digital connection,its not doing anything inside the player but send the signal to the reciever to do all the magic stuff. If you use the analog,its the other way around and your just using the volume on the reciever,more or less.

I do understand that, but some people say they do hear a difference even when using digital connections. I don't so I'm wondering what exactly what those that do, are hearing. I don't want to assume they are wrong b/c I only rely on my ears.

 

[MacManNM]

I have noticed that. Extremely cheap players are very sensitive to scratches.

That being said, do you think if you ran a $3000 player and a $500 player through the same DAC using digital connections, you could tell the difference in a blind test? I know I couldn't, but I'm wondering what exactly other people are hearing. That is, if the more expensive player has more accurate timing, how does that affect playback of the digital source?

The accuracy of the digital signal will obviously affect the final analog output.

 

[Sleestack]

The accuracy of the digital signal will obviously affect the final analog output.

Understood, but how does that materialize? If the signal is not accurate, won't it play nothing or be grossly distorted? It can't possibly be affecting the tone of the music... or can it?

I guess it goes back to my original question... if you are running a digital out through the same source, what differences do you think you would hear?

 

[MacManNM]

Understood, but how does that materialize? If the signal is not accurate, won't it play nothing or be grossly distorted? It can't possibly be affecting the tone of the music... or can it?

I guess it goes back to my original question... if you are running a digital out through the same source, what differences do you think you would hear?

A signal can't be reproduced properly if bits are missing. It will still play.