Appearance of Death Star II

[TLS Guy]

As you all know, I'm not inclined to replace equipment for trivial reasons.

I built my first Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) at the end 2004/beginning 2005.

Back in the day it was a very powerful computer. Now everybody's mobile phone has more power.
My children named it "Death Star" and the name stuck.

It was built round the most powerful dual core Intel processor of the day. It ran Windows XP. The recording editing software was WaveLab 5 soon updated to Wavelab 6 as WaveLab 5 was a little buggy.
The sound card/DAC was the RME Fireface 800.

The above system has a done a tremendous amount of work in the last 13 years. That is a pretty long run for a PC based system.

Neither the computer or RME could run with Windows 10.

XP has not been supported for over three years now. Browser support is about to withdrawn from XP.

Finally errors had started cropping up in the hard drive.

Visiting engineers were certainly wishing from a more up to date system.

So it was time to design, build and install "Death Star" II.

So my eldest son David and I built "Death Star" II last weekend. He did a superb job of installing and setting up the software. It was up and running by early afternoon last Sunday, five days ago. I finished the final installation and trim panels by the end of the afternoon.

The equipment all arrived.

The assembly.

The sound Card/DAC is the RME Fireface 802.

The operating system is Windows 10.

WaveLab 6 was upgraded to WaveLab 9 pro.

Death Star II installed and working

The unit is built round the 7th generation Intel i7 processor. Steinberg say i5 is minimum but strongly recommend the i7.

The unit is in a rack mounted case.

My object was to design a powerful state of the art DAW. This unit is powerful enough to keep on top of at least 100 tracks. It run two rooms of a major recording studio with full facilities including talk back, multiple phones and speaker systems.

It has advanced editing, processing and mastering facilities.

Now I have to get used to it all. I'm still early in the learning curve. The WaveLab user manual is 834 pages long! Unfortunately there is no book version of the WaveLab manual like previous editions. 834 pages on pdf. is not a joy. I think I will have to have a custom book printed. Steingerg's excuse is environmental protection!

The fidelity is superb. The functionality is a massive upgrade from the 14 year old "Death Star"I.

My design goals apart from state of the art facilities and performance was reliability and longevity. My son David, did mention that now I'm 70 I might need to be less concerned about equipment longevity! I did want a totally quiet unit.

Here is the equipment list to achieve that goal.

WaveLab 9 pro.

RME Fireface 802 purchased from Sweetwater as was the WaveLab upgrade from 6 to 9 Pro.

This is the case, which is heavy and built in the US. It is the best case I have ever owned.

The Mother Board.

The processor.

The SSHD.

The RAM

The Disc Drive/Burner.

To avoid noise this fan less video card was selected.

This over specked power supply was selected, as it will never deliver enough power to make the fan come on and it does not.

The large fan in the front of the case was replaced with this one.

The fan on the rear panel was disconnected.

This is the CPU cooler, an ultra quiet variable speed double fan. There are fans one on top of the other and you do not hear it even doing the stress test.

The Fireware Card. This RME unit does support a USB 3.0 connection also.

This is the new computer monitor.

And of course Windows 10.

The PC is dead quiet.

Normal use CPU temp is dead steady at 61 C. Under max stress it slowly rises to 72 C. On stopping stress it goes back to 61 C. Even at maximal stress you don't hear a sound.

Interconnection is digital output SPDIF via Toslink to the Marantz AV 8003. There is analog in and out to the studio switch Bus.

There are four front panel connectors on the RME, which are the new very clever Neutrik universal connectors. They offer XLR, TRS and high impedance balanced line in one connector. 48 volt phantom powering is available.

I submit this here so anyone wanting to build a state of the art DAW is welcome to copy the design.

I did remove the handles on the case as they stuck too far out in the room.

It is early days, but at this time I'm very happy with this unit.

Now I do have the old RME Fireface 800. It works perfectly and does not have a scratch. As I understand it, it will work with Windows 7 and 8 which is still supported. If any member in good standing wants it you can have it for the cost of shipping.

 

[Pogre]

Holy crap.

 

[TLS Guy]

Holy crap.

I suppose that is one way of putting it!

After using it quite a bit in the last few days, I'm learning the potential of this rig. It is certainly a potent and powerful tool. The WaveLab 9 pro metering and analysis is much more in depth.

This rig can rewrite a very long Wav, file in seconds.

The WaveLab software has much greater functionality and flexibility. The RME does as well. It is actually easier to use than the old 800. You can make interconnections straight from the Total Mix screen just by clicking on the fader panels. It has virtual knobs and the sensitivity of the each analog input can be adjusted from a virtual knob on each slider panel. It is very well thought out.

So far it has been stable and robust, and I hope it stays that way. Above all it sounds absolutely superb. The inputs and outputs seem to have enormous headroom. I have no clipped anything yet. With the old one you had to be careful with the gain structure and could easily light the clip warnings.

There has been a chasm of progress in the 13 years since I built Death Star I.

I have not used it as much as I have liked yet, although I have racked up a lot of hours. I had to get one of my tractors back to rights last week. I have also started getting boats in and other fall work.

When I get time and that will probably be after the hatches are battened down for winter and after my hip replacement I will post some of the metering and show you why a bookshelf and a sub does not cut it except in a very small room. For pretty much all music the energy required rapidly rolls off below 70 Hz. There is a lot of energy from 70 Hz to 2.5 KHz, then it starts falling off. Peak requirements are in the 170 to 600 Hz range. That is bass and not mid range and requires considerable cone excursion. That is also in the baffle step compensation range and requires 6 db more amp power in that range.

For really realistic reproduction a speaker needs to have robust power handling and output in that 70 to 600 Hz range. It also means a tweeter is going to be stressed crossing below 2.5 KHz. That has long been my lower limit for tweeter crossover. Ideally I like it 3KHz or higher.

The metering in WaveLab really brings these points home.

 

[slipperybidness]

@TLS Guy
Do you mind sharing the ballpark cost for a first-class rig like that?

Concerning PDF manuals--Yeah, I'm kind of old-school too, I like hard copies of manuals so I can add tabs to find the important stuff and document my notes in the margins, etc.

But, PDF has a huge advantage when you use the "search keyword" function on your PC, so don't overlook that advantage.

And, for me, for e-manuals, I find it easier to read and deal with on my tablet vs. a PC or laptop.

 

[TLS Guy]

@TLS Guy
Do you mind sharing the ballpark cost for a first-class rig like that?

Concerning PDF manuals--Yeah, I'm kind of old-school too, I like hard copies of manuals so I can add tabs to find the important stuff and document my notes in the margins, etc.

But, PDF has a huge advantage when you use the "search keyword" function on your PC, so don't overlook that advantage.

And, for me, for e-manuals, I find it easier to read and deal with on my tablet vs. a PC or laptop.

Well it is not a project for the faint of heart!

In round numbers, the cost of the computer and screen was $2000. So a pretty expensive computer. That is pretty much the exact cost of that part of the project.

The RME 802 was another $2000.

The cost to me of the WaveLab upgrade was $250. If you buy WaveLab 9 pro from scratch it is $500.

Windows 10 pro is $200.

So to start from square one you are looking at $4,700.00.

It is a first class rig though, and you can't buy anything comparable off the shelf. For specialized computers DIY is the way to go.

 

[slipperybidness]

Well it is not a project for the faint of heart!

In round numbers, the cost of the computer and screen was $2000. So a pretty expensive computer. That is pretty much the exact cost of that part of the project.

The RME 802 was another $2000.

The cost to me of the WaveLab upgrade was $250. If you buy WaveLab 9 pro from scratch it is $500.

Windows 10 pro is $200.

So to start from square one you are looking at $4,700.00.

It is a first class rig though, and you can't buy anything comparable off the shelf. For specialized computers DIY is the way to go.

Wow! Actually, that is a bit cheaper than I had expected!

It's a great time when gear like this could actually be afforded by the masses. Not cheap, but not out of reach either.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Memory linked is a single 16 memory dimm. I like to use TWO for a bit better memory performance.
Getting a 2nd 16gb dimm and making 32gb total ram would be nice to have.
also this would be storage I'd use nowadays:

This is why:
http://ssd.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Samsung-950-NVMe-PCIe-M2-256GB-vs-Samsung-850-Pro-256GB/m38570vs2385

 

[TLS Guy]

Memory linked is a single 16 memory dimm. I like to use TWO for a bit better memory performance.
Getting a 2nd 16gb dimm and making 32gb total ram would be nice to have.
also this would be storage I'd use nowadays:

This is why:
http://ssd.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Samsung-950-NVMe-PCIe-M2-256GB-vs-Samsung-850-Pro-256GB/m38570vs2385

I probably should have bothered you before. I wondered about putting in two of those RAM cards.

As far as the SSD, I don't need a huge amount of storage, as the files are stored on large external magneto optical drives.

I do plan to add a RAID controller. Do you have any thoughts or suggestions about that?

I could put in another 16 Gig of RAM when I install the RAID controller.

I have not noted any performance issues related to RAM issues.

As always your suggestions are valued.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I probably should have bothered you before. I wondered about putting in two of those RAM cards.

As far as the SSD, I don't need a huge amount of storage, as the files are stored on large external magneto optical drives.

I do plan to add a RAID controller. Do you have any thoughts or suggestions about that?

I could put in another 16 Gig of RAM when I install the RAID controller.

I have not noted any performance issues related to RAM issues.

As always your suggestions are valued.

Skip raid controller. Speed will be much better with nvme linked above drive anyhow. As for data availability/resiliency - you'd be better off doing backups to another type of device anyhow. I'd recommend Backblaze since Crashplan is moving away from personal backups.
Check memory utilization. If you're not near full under full steam, then nothing to worry about. If you're, then by all means - do add second ram stick.

 

[TLS Guy]

Wow! Actually, that is a bit cheaper than I had expected!

It's a great time when gear like this could actually be afforded by the masses. Not cheap, but not out of reach either.

I think a lot of members here might consider that a steep price. However all things are relative. When I bought my Revox A700, Brenell Mk 6 and the professional DBX 1 code encode system it cost around $3000. And that did not include any mixing facilities. So in today's money that rig would have been close to $16,000. Of course this current unit adds much more functionality and convenience.

My history with recording goes back a long time.

We had one of these around the home for a few years.

Those were good machines built like a battleship. It fell victim to WAF as it did not fit in the antique chest which housed the electronics. My mother said it had to go, much to my regret.

So in my system I got involved in one of these.

At a speed of 78 RPM it recorded at 7.5 ips half track mono. I used a vintage Garrard 78 rpm electric deck because they were tightly governed like to old spring windups. Wow and flutter though was always a little out of bounds.

In my teens I managed to spring for a Brenell MK 5 like this one.

Electronics was DIY tube from Mullard circuits. It was mono, later I had Brenell convert it to stereo and added the solid state Brenell tape link. I still have it, may be I will get round to restoring it.

In 1974 I purchased the Revox A700 and the Brenell Mk 6.

In 1984 I put together a Panasonic VHS/Sansui rig. You can see it on the top shelf in the first photo of the DAW in this thread. Panasonic made a rudimentary editing controller for it. However I had to make an analog dub to reel to reel for precise editing.

I did use DAT, but found it much too prone to head fowling. The VHS system was much more reliable.

In 2014 came Death Star I and now II.

I think on performance per dollar these computer based recording systems offer by far the best performance per dollar than any systems that came before.

Anyhow that is my experience with recorders. We have had the odd person though here that has spent more on speaker wire, than the cost of Death Star II!

 

[TLS Guy]

Skip raid controller. Speed will be much better with nvme linked above drive anyhow. As for data availability/resiliency - you'd be better off doing backups to another type of device anyhow. I'd recommend Backblaze since Crashplan is moving away from personal backups.
Check memory utilization. If you're not near full under full steam, then nothing to worry about. If you're, then by all means - do add second ram stick.

Thanks for your advice. However I have had very bad luck indeed with cloud backup schemes. Usually they have not loaded the Wav,files properly and frequently cut off while loading. Firms have gone out of business. I certainly do not have a favorable view of these schemes. So that is why I'm considering RAID.

If the house burns down, I likely would not replace the equipment at my age, even if you could, and a good bit you couldn't.

What do you have against RAID?

 

[TLS Guy]

That Backblaze sounds absolutely awful. Reviews are less then encouraging. It is slow, no password recovery and I you have to download back to a new machine it sounds as if you will have a hassle.

All these schemes have been far too slow for my needs. With my archives, it sounds as it might take months or even a year to back up using that outfit.

That is my beef, they have all been way slower than my Internet connection and something always goes wrong before back up is complete.

I'm going with RAID. I have had quite enough of these cloud fraudsters.

 

[panteragstk]

Thanks for your advice. However I have had very bad luck indeed with cloud backup schemes. Usually they have not loaded the Wav,files properly and frequently cut off while loading. Firms have gone out of business. I certainly do not have a favorable view of these schemes. So that is why I'm considering RAID.

If the house burns down, I likely would not replace the equipment at my age, even if you could, and a good bit you couldn't.

What do you have against RAID?

RAID is one of those things that is great until you have to deal with a catastrophic failure. A few examples of this would be when more than one drive fails in RAID5 you are done. You have to replace all data from backups.

RAID6 attempts to help this, but there are other things to consider such as a controller card failing. Sometimes even a new card from the same manufacturer won't recognize the array and all data is lost.

This is even possible with RAID1. You'd think it would just be a 1 to 1 copy and be readable by any PC that can read a file-system, but this is not always the case.

I've always been told that RAID is not a replacement for a backup. Just helps to prevent catastrophic failures from using a single drive.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Raid is not replacement for backups. Raid with hardware cards is expensive. You'd be better off getting 2 disk nas. configure it with raid-1/mirroring and using some free backup software or use one provided with NAS like this one:
https://www.qnap.com/en-us/family_apply_v2/con_show.php?op=showone&cid=3

 

[j_garcia]

It does make me think of this

 

[TLS Guy]

Raid is not replacement for backups. Raid with hardware cards is expensive. You'd be better off getting 2 disk nas. configure it with raid-1/mirroring and using some free backup software or use one provided with NAS like this one:
https://www.qnap.com/en-us/family_apply_v2/con_show.php?op=showone&cid=3

Is this what we are talking about? It says it is RAID compatible under features.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Is this what we are talking about? It says it is RAID compatible under features.

Yes, difference between running raid on your main system and your backup system. Again, keep that SSD drive as is, don't mess with raid on main system. Use 2 drive Nas in raid 1 as a backup destination. Harddrives are still much cheaper per gig and their performance doesn't matter for a backup device.
Even budget model like this one would work.
https://www.qnap.com/en-us/product/mdel.php?II=258

 

[TLS Guy]

Yes, difference between running raid on your main system and your backup system. Again, keep that SSD drive as is, don't mess with raid on main system. Use 2 drive Nas in raid 1 as a backup destination. Harddrives are still much cheaper per gig and their performance doesn't matter for a backup device.
Even budget model like this one would work.
https://www.qnap.com/en-us/product/mdel.php?II=258

Thanks Bored. Again this is a very helpful forum. That link says page can not be found for some reason. You have already helped a great deal.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Memory linked is a single 16 memory dimm. I like to use TWO for a bit better memory performance.
Getting a 2nd 16gb dimm and making 32gb total ram would be nice to have.
also this would be storage I'd use nowadays:

This is why:
http://ssd.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Samsung-950-NVMe-PCIe-M2-256GB-vs-Samsung-850-Pro-256GB/m38570vs2385

Actually, depending on the application, on an i7 using two DIMMs, one on each memory channel, might provide noticeably better overall system performance. With only one DIMM you are leaving fully 50% of the i7's memory bandwidth idle. That would bother me just for emotional reasons, if nothing else.

I also agree with BSA regarding SSDs. Even if you don't need the performance of an NVMe SSD, the MTBF of an SSD so far exceeds HDDs that it is meaningful in any system.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

It does make me think of this

This does me think of this: