Aperion Verus Grand Center (x 2) vs. Ascend Sierra 2s vs. SVS Ultra Bookshelfs

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cschang

Audioholic Chief
The tweeter on the sierra 2 is not the issue here because they are custom made to fit into the restricted cabinet of the existing sierra 1 tweeter opening and with a smaller transformer that would not take up the cabinet volume. Technically the raal 70-20 would have been a better option due the CTC of the tweeter and midwoofer and the crossover point, but of course all else needed to be weighted in the design, just like someone would if built from off the shelves parts.
I'm sorry, I thought in your previous post you said the tweeter was an issue in regards to the cabinet. The 70-20XR was not needed in this application, especially at its cost.

You are missing one of the points of custom vs off the shelf. If you could get exactly what you wanted in a driver's performance in a custom driver, at the proper pricepoint, would you do that? Also remember, that was done with the Sierra-1, where there wasn't an existing cabinet.

Incidentally, Dave posted earlier this evening that they are working on retrofit DIY kit that would allow the use of the lower priced RAAL into the Sierra Horizon Center. I am going to assume that this would also be available for the Sierra Tower as well. I would imagine there would be a performance hit, but this will make these products with a good amount of RAAL sweetness, more accessible.
 
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Ricardojoa

Audioholic
Curtis,

i have never said the tweeter was an issue. It is the tweeter baffle opening which falls in to the limits of the cabibets limits which needed to be consideed. None of the raal would fit in the sierra 1 tweeter opening regarless of any faceplate except the newest less expensive one. Wether there was a need to the raal 70-20,thats up to what the designer wants to achieve with its budget. As i mentioned from my previous post, there are things that needed to be weighted in a design, and in case of the sierra 2, the less expensive raal may just fit better in terms of pricing and value, that doesnt mean someone cant be critical on the verical off axis which it shows in the sierra 2 measuremnt.
 
C

cschang

Audioholic Chief
Curtis,

i have never said the tweeter was an issue. It is the tweeter baffle opening which falls in to the limits of the cabibets limits which needed to be consideed. None of the raal would fit in the sierra 1 tweeter opening regarless of any faceplate except the newest less expensive one. Wether there was a need to the raal 70-20,thats up to what the designer wants to achieve with its budget. As i mentioned from my previous post, there are things that needed to be weighted in a design, and in case of the sierra 2, the less expensive raal may just fit better in terms of pricing and value, that doesnt mean someone cant be critical on the verical off axis which it shows in the sierra 2 measuremnt.
You are proving my point of off the shelf vs custom. The tweeter, the faceplate, all designed because that is what Ascend needed.

Ascend got what they wanted and at the proper price point ("pricing and value")...because they went custom. Nothing else was available to do the job at the needed pricepoint. Dave and Aleksandar worked two years to bring this lower priced RAAL reality for the Sierra-2.

The by product of that is RAAL got a great performing tweeter with their technology that can be sold to other customers at a lower price. Those other customers can now offer products with that RAAL to their customers.

The faceplate is a non-issue as far as R&D is concerned....not much engineering in that, just tooling to make the faceplate fit the existing mounting for the custom SEAS tweeters that Ascend uses. It allows customers to use the different tweeters without needing different cabinets.

Who mentioned anything about you being critical about the Sierra-2 measurement? This about your opposition to nickboros' post. The conversation is about custom vs off the shelf. If you want to talk about the differences between the two tweeters, that is an entirely different conversation/subject.
 
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Ricardojoa

Audioholic
Im not sure why you get so defensive. The custom drivers on the sierra 2 are limited to the cabinet spec, plain and simple. Even if raal could have offered the same raal 70-20 at the same cost of the new raal, the baffle opening would stillbe a limiting factor. No one is saying the faceplate is an issue or that iminterested about the ascend/raal R&D. You can star your own post about this.
My oppositions to nickboros is that custom drivers or off the shelves drivers, a designer would still have its face the tradeoff in the speaker design.
 
C

cschang

Audioholic Chief
Im not sure why you get so defensive. The custom drivers on the sierra 2 are limited to the cabinet spec, plain and simple. Even if raal could have offered the same raal 70-20 at the same cost of the new raal, the baffle opening would stillbe a limiting factor. No one is saying the faceplate is an issue or that iminterested about the ascend/raal R&D. You can star your own post about this.
My oppositions to nickboros is that custom drivers or off the shelves drivers, a designer would still have its face the tradeoff in the speaker design.
Not sure why you think I am getting defensive.
"Even if"? Why deal with "ifs"? Again, the fact is that there was nothing in the price range that had the same or similar performance. The baffle opening can handle the NrT or the 70-20XR...like it does in the Tower. Ascend as even made custom Sierra bookshelves with the 70-20XR. You are a member at the Ascend forum, so you have surely seen those posts. You are being short sited.
There are other factors of getting drivers to work together other than the enclosure. The baffle opening is so trivial...it's just a hole. I know you know that.

"My oppositions to nickboros is that custom drivers or off the shelves drivers, a designer would still have its face the tradeoff in the speaker design."

There are trade offs in ANY design regardless of where the drivers come from. With custom drivers, you have to make less tradeoffs with the drivers themselves. Because of this, less work has to be done elsewhere.

Please re-read post number 14.

Or lets try a different tact...
Show me a tweeter with the same or similar performance (or better) as the inexpensive RAAL at the same price point, regardless of the baffle opening.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
No doubt.

I loveeeeee my Phil 2s. When I listen to them I'm always left breathless.

But when I'll be at the upstairs living room, and even watching everyday TV on my EMP E55Ti is always a pleasure. I'm not thinking "oh noes this silk dome is missing detail at 6khz". I'm thinking Clean and Clear and Under Control.

It's as TLS Guy always says about sins of omission VS sins of commission. Good loudspeakers are may still have the former, and that's okay. You can still enjoy the source content very finely.
Good speakers sound good regardless of how other speakers sound. And there isn't a mandatory budget for good speakers either. :D

It just comes down to preferences. One person may think a particular speaker sound more detailed or have better imaging and soundstage. Another person may think the opposite. :D

Speakers like Philharmonic, EMP, SVS, Aperion, & Ascend, etc., will make a lot of people happy.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
My oppositions to nickboros is that custom drivers or off the shelves drivers, a designer would still have its face the tradeoff in the speaker design.
I agree that as long as the speaker is well designed, built and tested, and it sounds great, it doesn't matter how the builder got the drivers. :D
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
No doubt.

I loveeeeee my Phil 2s. When I listen to them I'm always left breathless.
Be careful.... there may be an underlying problem there, do you have a history of asthma or bronchitis? Have you contacted Dennis about this, it could lead to a class action if more people are effected... :D


I agree that as long as the speaker is well designed, built and tested, and it sounds great, it doesn't matter how the builder got the drivers. :D
Unless he traded them for child slaves, I don't think I could live with that, unless they sounded really really good or had a really nice veneer that I never seen before... :D
 
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Ricardojoa

Audioholic
Not sure why you think I am getting defensive.


There are other factors of getting drivers to work together other than the enclosure. The baffle opening is so trivial...it's just a hole. I know you know that.

I'm sure you are aware that the sierra 2 components are also offered to those sierra 1 who wish to upgrade to sierra 2. That hole is not just a hole if its required extensive work to make the tweeter fit. I am aware of the 70-20 raal sierra and that is a custom version that requires work on the cabinet opening. In addtion, im sure you have seen the two raal transformer and the difference is so great, that using the 70-20 raal will eventually take up some of the cabinet volume of the already small sierra cabinets which then can affect the bass performance. [/quote]

Actually you can start another thread about which tweetr is better than the sierra 2 raal.
 
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nickboros

Audioholic
Btw...do you use the same user ID at the Axiom forum? IIRC a member there uses the same moniker(or similar) but I don't visit there any more for personal reasons.
My user id over there is Nick B (not to be confused with Nick Buol). I still go over there every now and then, even though I don't have Axiom speakers anymore. There are some knowledgeable folks over there. I don't really talk about speakers or look at posts about speakers though, since we have different preferences.

It is funny to see there is someone who took a similar path as me. Like I said above, I thought the Axiom's were a big step up for me at the time in terms of performance and at the time were a very good value for the price. They just were not the last set of speakers I wanted to own because there were issues with them (to my ears) I couldn't live with in the long run. I think that the Ascend line of speakers once I fill out a full surround system will be the last set of speakers for me.

Enjoy your towers!
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Good speakers sound good regardless of how other speakers sound. And there isn't a mandatory budget for good speakers either. :D
Especially not with stuff like the Wavecrest Audio and Affordable Accuracy on the market!
 
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davef

Audioholic Intern
I think all ID companies (including Ascend) use "off the shelf" drivers, more or less. :D

Beyond that, they may have the driver manufacturers build to their "specification". Harman (Revel, JBL, Infinity) build their own drivers. So do KEF and TAD. RBH build their own midrange drivers and woofers, but they use Scan-Speak tweeters. But none of these ID speaker companies build their own drivers in-house. :D

OTOH, it doesn't mean the drivers are not as good if they are "off the shelf"; and it doesn't mean the drivers are better if they are built in-house. :D

It means you can cut cost if you can mass produce in-house parts. For example, if you were to buy aftermarket diamond tweeters, it might cost you $2K for one Accuton Diamond tweeter. But it may cost B&W only $500 each. It doesn't mean one is better sounding. It just means the in-house parts are more cost effective for the company.
Actually,

If the definition of off-the-shelf means that component can be purchased by others or from a retailer, no - we (Ascend) do not use a single of-the-shelf transducer.

In fact, many of our transucers were developed by us in cooperation with the OEM. And others were developed exclusively by us.

For example, the woofers in our 340’s and 170’s were actually designed by me 100%. Everything from developing the cone material, to the former and windings, suspension system and basket frame. We can take this woofer design and approach other OEM’s to build it for us (if they can) and we have. Ascend owns all the toolings. We could, technically, build these here at our factory, but that would be extremely inefficient and expensive.

Another example is the tweeter used in our 170SE and 200SE’s, and our NrT dome. We approached SEAS and developed both of these in conjuction with their engineers and expertise. These units did not exist before and many (not all) of the parts required to build them required their own toolings to be created. Some of the parts used already existed. These tweeters are 100% exclusive to us, and will remain so.

Another example is the tweeter used in our 340. We took an existing SEAS design and made significant changes to both the motor assembly and dome.

With the Sierra-1, this was a new tweeter that was already in development by SEAS and after they wanted my feedback on the design, we made changes that better fit our needs.

With the Sierra-2 tweeter, as Dennis mentioned, this was a joint effort between Ascend and RAAL. It is fully custom and development costs were quite high so in order to better absorb RAAL’s costs, an agreement was made that an OEM version of this tweeter would be made available. It is not the same as the version we use (and the differences extend to well beyond just transformer windings) but I did not want to commit to the volume required to keep full exclusivity on such a new product and the fact is, our version and the OEM version are simply wonderful tweeters and keeping such a tweeter exclusive to us just isn’t right. We have actually exceeded the volume requirements for exclusivity but doing so wouldn’t be beneficial to RAAL’s bottom line and I consider them good friends. There is much more to this industry than making a few bucks, our relationship with RAAL (like our relationship with SEAS) is far more valuable than a few extra $$$ that may or may not be earned by full exclusivity.

Our approach is quite a bit more expensive than using existing drivers. I am not saying custom drivers (no matter how custom or proprietary they are) are better than off-the-shelf parts, but – we design a finished product with a very specific performance target, and getting there almost always requires development of something new. It may or may not be the best approach to loudspeaker design. For example, we must purchase in very large quantities and lead times are often long as our components are not part of the normal production batches. There have been times when I have deeply regretted NOT being able to simply order a batch of components from Madisound or Parts Express. But – I am an engineer at heart and this does not mean I am a smart or savvy business owner and truth be told, I rarely even look at our bottom line. We do manage to somehow get the bills paid and our customers are happy, so I am happy.

Some designers work forwards, take the components they like and design around them to achieve the best performance they can with those components. I design backwards, I come up with a very specific performance target and then do what we need to do to get “there”. As Curtis mentioned, sometimes this means throwing away a lot of hard work if it is simply not going to work, which was the case with the first few iterations of the S2 ribbon tweeter.

I am certainly not saying one approach is better than another. Great loudspeakers exist using fully off-the-shelf components and great loudspeakers exist using custom and/or proprietary components.

Hope this makes sense!
 
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davef

Audioholic Intern
Hi Ricardo,

Curtis,

As i mentioned from my previous post, there are things that needed to be weighted in a design, and in case of the sierra 2, the less expensive raal may just fit better in terms of pricing and value, that doesnt mean someone cant be critical on the verical off axis which it shows in the sierra 2 measuremnt.
Actually, while the Sierra-2 tweeter is less expensive than the 70-20, it has considerably wider vertical dispersion than the 70-20, which was a large factor in its development. More comments on this further down...

Im not sure why you get so defensive. The custom drivers on the sierra 2 are limited to the cabinet spec, plain and simple. Even if raal could have offered the same raal 70-20 at the same cost of the new raal, the baffle opening would stillbe a limiting factor. No one is saying the faceplate is an issue or that iminterested about the ascend/raal R&D. You can star your own post about this.
Yes, -- the faceplates, woofer basket frames, were all designed specifically for our existing cutouts. This was not a factor in the actual design of the electrical components, in fact -- it almost didn't happen this way due to costing issues with the S2 woofer tooling. But, thanks to our friends at SEAS, -THEY- saw the potential for increased volume by offering upgrades so we were able to work out a deal with them regarding tooling costs on the woofer basket frame.

In addtion, im sure you have seen the two raal transformer and the difference is so great, that using the 70-20 raal will eventually take up some of the cabinet volume of the already small sierra cabinets which then can affect the bass performance.
The difference in size between the two ribbon tweeters is not the transformer, it is with the size of the damping chamber -behind- the ribbon element, and the required magnets. In order to allow such a low crossover point and almost limitless dynamics of the 70-20xr, both the ribbon element and the chamber must be very large. The huge dynamic capabilities of the 70-20 are major overkill in a bookshelf speaker, no 5" - 6" woofer I know of can keep up.

Matching the dynamic capabilities of the S2 woofer along with widening vertical off-axis response (not needed in a tower speaker but important, IMO, for a bookshelf speaker) were the starting blocks for the tweeter design.

Performance of the S2 ribbon was not compromised in order to make it "fit". Fitting it in existing cutouts was secondary. In fact, the first iterations of the S2 tweeter did not fit as we tried to use a wider but shorter ribbon element, which required a larger chamber. I believe Curtis may have seen / heard this model... I can't remember, it was several years ago.

Is it a "better" tweeter than the 70-20xr? Certainly not, but when evaluating a completed design, I do think the S2 tweeter is the more appropriate tweeter for the Sierra-2. For a tower speaker that requires greater dynamic capabilities and has less placement versatility, the 70-20 is absolutely the better choice.
 
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davef

Audioholic Intern
To give credit where credit is due, Dave didn't just have RAAL fix him up another version of an existing OEM. He worked with RAAL to develop the new unit from scratch. I can also buy this tweeter and have the transformer wound to my specific sensitivity needs, but I had nothing to do with the driver development.
Thanks Dennis, much appreciated!
 
JohnnieB

JohnnieB

Senior Audioholic
I thought I would throw this in, given present company.

I stopped into a brick n mortar retailer, who was selling high end gear. He greeted me with a big smile and a warm welcome. I told him my girlfriend was clothes shopping next door and we proceeded to talk shop. After about a half hour of pleasant conversation, he asked me what I currently had in my setup. I told him, I have Ascend Sierra towers.

"Never heard of em'" was his immediate response.

I held back a small chuckle and told him what I knew about Ascend, and filled him in on the wonderful sound I had found with them.

His next response was less than friendly. "Dave huh, well I don't keep up on the magazines or tech articles. I can't afford to do business with two guys building speakers out of their garage."

With perfect timing, my girlfriend walked in. I politely thanked him for his time and left.

I have nothing against retailers or brick and mortar stores. I buy some stuff from my local store on occasion. Just got a chuckle out of this guy and thought I would share.
 
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Ricardojoa

Audioholic
Hi Ricardo,



Actually, while the Sierra-2 tweeter is less expensive than the 70-20, it has considerably wider vertical dispersion than the 70-20, which was a large factor in its development. More comments on this further down...



Yes, -- the faceplates, woofer basket frames, were all designed specifically for our existing cutouts. This was not a factor in the actual design of the electrical components, in fact -- it almost didn't happen this way due to costing issues with the S2 woofer tooling. But, thanks to our friends at SEAS, -THEY- saw the potential for increased volume by offering upgrades so we were able to work out a deal with them regarding tooling costs on the woofer basket frame.



The difference in size between the two ribbon tweeters is not the transformer, it is with the size of the damping chamber -behind- the ribbon element, and the required magnets. In order to allow such a low crossover point and almost limitless dynamics of the 70-20xr, both the ribbon element and the chamber must be very large. The huge dynamic capabilities of the 70-20 are major overkill in a bookshelf speaker, no 5" - 6" woofer I know of can keep up.

Matching the dynamic capabilities of the S2 woofer along with widening vertical off-axis response (not needed in a tower speaker but important, IMO, for a bookshelf speaker) were the starting blocks for the tweeter design.

Performance of the S2 ribbon was not compromised in order to make it "fit". Fitting it in existing cutouts was secondary. In fact, the first iterations of the S2 tweeter did not fit as we tried to use a wider but shorter ribbon element, which required a larger chamber. I believe Curtis may have seen / heard this model... I can't remember, it was several years ago.

Is it a "better" tweeter than the 70-20xr? Certainly not, but when evaluating a completed design, I do think the S2 tweeter is the more appropriate tweeter for the Sierra-2. For a tower speaker that requires greater dynamic capabilities and has less placement versatility, the 70-20 is absolutely the better choice.


Dave ,

Thanks for the response. I wasnt arguing about the raal on the the sierra 2. What i was commenting to the OP is that the development of the drivers needed to consider the sierra cabinets volume and cutout as you mentioned. Whether primary or secondary, certainly were consideration, as you mention a wider/shorter ribbon did not fit due to the larger chamber.

As for vertical off axis, i was refering about the dip around 2.8khz. Again not arguing thats bad, considering the cost and performance of the tweeter, thats a small tradeoff.
 
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sharkman

Full Audioholic
Well, I must be in the audiophile section because the number of arguments is high for a 2 page thread. Other than that, it's kind of unusual to be using 2 specifically designed center speakers as a left/right combination. I'm not surprised to hear they sound different, but better? I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
 
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AllanMarcus

Enthusiast
i wonder how well the Chane ARX towers would fare in this comparison. Yes, they are unite a bit cheaper, but they get pretty darned good reviews. Anyone compared them to Ascends?
 
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prk504

Audioholic Intern
As far as I understand Aperion also uses their own tweeter design in their Verus Grand speakers and their new Verus grand 2 line.



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