Anyone know about auto paint?

Hi Ho

Hi Ho

Audioholic Samurai
My 1990 Civic is in near perfect condition except for the paint. The clearcoat dteriorated completely, probably because it has never been garaged. PICS HERE

Anyway, even with 340,000 miles, it still has life in it and I would like to make it look nicer. I have an air sprayer and a very large compressor so I am ready to go in that regard. What I need is paint. I found THIS website selling acryllic enamel for which they claim a clear coat is not required for a deep shine. Would something like that be sufficient for my purpose? Should I also use a clearcoat? Do I need to use a primer or can I paint over the old paint after some sanding?
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
My brother in law runs the paint department for Honda in Marysville. You'd be amazed at the paint process for a car. I worked for Sherwin Williams in management out of college, and even I was amazed at what they do.

For paint to last on a car, you need a clean, rough surface (light sanding), a high grade primer, several coats of professional paint, and several coats of clear. Honda's are known for overdoing it on the clear coats. That's why it's the last car to lose it's sheen compared to others. I don't think there's a quick fix to painting - unless someone has invented a miracle product.

Your darker colors will fade quicker than light colors. Regular application of wax, and buffing compound helps a great deal.
 
Hi Ho

Hi Ho

Audioholic Samurai
Well I have no idea how much longer this car will last. I could spend thousands on a nice new paint job and it could have a catastrophic breakdown the next day. I could spend a few hundred at Maaco and get a poor masking job. Or, I could do it myself and hopefully get a halfway decent looking job for even less money. From what I've heard, the best quality red paint would cost my around $700. There's no way I'm going to spend that much. Maybe I should just try it and see what happens. :)
 
zildjian

zildjian

Audioholic Chief
I love all the random advice we can get here that's not audio related!

If you've painted things before with your spray gun and are used to it, go for it; save the $$$. You definately want to sand the old paint down and prime it, paint and clear coat it. Buckeyefan's bro has probably forgotten more about painting than I'll ever know in my life about it, so just do what he says! Don't think you could find a better source than someone who runs a Honda paint dept. I've did quite a bit several years ago with my father restoring things like antique tractors (never a car though), but it's still pretty tough to avoid getting any runs in the paint when you paint a big piece of sheet metal or fenders. Also, if you don't have a good sealed up garage to do it in, forget about it or find one! Even shutting all the doors in my shop, little flies & nats find their way in somehow and land on the metal before the paint dries... :mad: It can be terribly frustrating. I've painted and had to resand & repaint several things cause dust and bugs just seem to be attracted to shiny wet John Deere paint! We finally broke down and had the last 2 fenders professionally done, but we wanted it perfect too.
 
brian32672

brian32672

Banned
I use to paint yachts for a living (also a certified mechanic - but only for gas, not diesel). Also did boats, jet skis, and car work as well, etc... (oh yeah, and my computer has about 300.00 in paint on it - Did it in Dark Blue Imron (for the outside), and Snow White AWL-Grip (for the inside) - Yeah, I know it's overkill. But when you have acces to free paint from a left over job, then it was no big deal. ;)

Hi Ho said:
The clearcoat deteriorated completely, probably because it has never been garaged.
This is usually due to a improperly mixed clearcoat, and or basecoat was allowed to long to dry.
This happens quite a bit on base-coat/Clear-coat paints.
The good thing about base-coat/clear-coat paints, are that they are extremely easy to use (even a novice can't really screw up)
The base coat - goes on like a flat finish, it is fairly hard to get runs/sags in it.
Base-coat dries fairly quick, and will almost be ready for clear-coating within minutes, and is used to bring out the deep(er) shine...

I have an air sprayer and a very large compressor so I am ready to go in that regard.
What kind of sprayer? (Pressure pot system, HVLP, etc..) How large of a tank?(10,20,80 gallon tank)(What is the rated compressor, PSI)

Should I also use a clearcoat?
This will be dependent on the paint you use. Some cheap Nason paint - Or anything that is base-coat/clear-coat. Will need at least 2 coats of clear (IMO)
You may be able to get away with one single semi heavy coat. (Preferred would be a fine mist/tack coat, and a medium coat)
Other paints will not require clearcoat, as most that I use(d) are 5 part paints, that are sprayed in successive coats, and can be wet sanded and buffed with years to come. Example is Imron (polyurethane).. AS well AWL-Grip. However AWL-Grip will be a fairly expensive paint (for use on cars). But it will last the life of the car. It is used on aircraft and marine applications. AWL-Grip does not wet sand and buff well, as a month after, the spot buffed - will dull down. However, it is a very hard paint (epoxy based), and will resist paint chips, as well as (oh say) you are driving behind a dump truck / loaded with pebbles, it will handle much better than almost any other paint to that abuse. (Lastly, AWL-Grip is not a novice paint, and will sag/run/fish eye/gator/etc.. easy if not mixed and sprayed correctly) Please note:: I am not talking about AWL-Grip2. AWL-Grip2 is a easier paint to spray than regular AWL-Grip, and has similar qulaties (strength). It is still a fairly hard to spray type paint for any novice painter. My preference would be AWL-Grip as I have found it a stronger paint.

Do I need to use a primer or can I paint over the old paint after some sanding?
It would be best, as the primer should be based on the paint (chemical type) you are using, as it will bond better. As well, if you plan on changing the color of the car, it will need to be used - Yes even if going from a light color to a dark color. /// Sanding is a must. If there is no body work, then you will only need two grades of paper, I would say use 180 (lower the # the coarser the grit) for the areas with peeling clearcoat, feathering it quite well to where it no longer flakes. Then use at least a 220 grade over the whole car, I use mainly 320 (and it would be preferred as it will shows less sanding scratches).
For clear coat (most paints) will not require sanding in-between. It should be sprayed the same day, as to have a better chemical bond. If by chance you can not spray the clear coat the same day (usually within minutes of base coat) It will need to be lightly scuffed with either 400 grit, or even better a fine (non-coarse) scotch pad. Please know, this will usually still be able to see fine sanding marks if clear-coated next day, or waited to long for the base coat to clear.

Your darker colors will fade quicker than light colors.
This is not true, as silver is the worst at fading.

Regular application of wax, and buffing compound helps a great deal.
This as well is slightly incorrect, as by buffing you will be removing the finish, and it will cause premature paint life, as it will fade quicker (with almost all auto paints, as well a good portion of professional paints.)(it is also not recommended for clear coats) I would only buff out the car, as a last resort, or if I knew exactly what paint was used. Like if Imron was used (and with plenty of coats - say at least 3 coats bare min.) As well, wax is not need for the first year of almost any paint, and AWL-Grip is not recommended for waxing. Waxing will grab-and hold onto dirt, and the car will need frequent washes. AWL-Grip is actually so strong, that (once it is hardened) can be cleaned with lacquer thinner. (Not on AWL-Grip2)Most paint, will almost automatically remove some of the paint - especially if it is still soft - say within 3 months of painting.

(EDIT):: Please note: these are only general guidelines, as there are different chemical paints - I have not even got into Lacquer paints. Also some Imrons (or other polyurethanes) will do well even if clear-coated a week after painted. Clear-coat for Imron is really only needed for any metallic finish. The solid colors would be better if not clear-coated, as they can be buffed up and shined (say, just before the sale of the car) (if a bare min. of 3 coats was used, otherwise - you will get burn-through) If you do plan on clear-coating a week/month/year after, then you will need to wet-sand the car with 1800/2000 grit paper. If done over a week, then even clear-coating will tend to peel within a year. As well, the other sanding papers I mentioned above are in general, as there are usually 3 steps of paper grades. And with any body work, it will be a bare min. 3 steps, and usually 4 or more steps, to remove sanding scratches from the coarser grits. I mean heck, if you have to do any grinding, with say 40 grit, then you will need 100 grit(done fairly heavy, to remove those deep scratches from the 40 or below grit), 120 grit, 180 grit, 220 grit (done heavily), then 320 grit. There is a lot more to it, however, my question would be - Does it need to be perfect? (meaning, not show-car look)-(in this case, I am assuming passable is ok, ------ For a show car look, requires much, much, more work, as the whole car would need to be block-sanded, then guide-coated, then blocked again, as well, it will take a few days of successive base coats then clear-coats, and each of those coats will require sanding in-between coats and will need 24 hours cure time.

(EDIT#2):: Also I forgot to mention, you should scotch pad and comet the car (yes with water as well). Before you start any work, to remove any wax and or road tar and/or grease. Then it does not hurt to do a final scotch pad and comet, to remove any grease from your own finger prints, then blow the car down good - including getting any left over water out of headlights, trim, etc.. Then use a tack cloth for any dust that settles just prior to painting (be careful not to press to hard with a tack-cloth, as it will leave glue spots. The surgeon blue tack cloths are best (IMO) as they only have a light glue tack to them. Also, try not to use any general purpose white tape, due to, if left on to long you will be spending hours removing tape glue. Blue medium tack tapes are best (but are also twice the price). Fair warning - Do not use any oil based cleaners - like mineral spirits, as it will guarantee fish-eyes. Depending on paint used - you can use general purpose lacquer thinner, although the cheap grade is not refined enough for some uses. Better yet, use denatured alcohol. Also use - lint/free rags or paper towels.
 
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Hi Ho

Hi Ho

Audioholic Samurai
Wow, thanks Brian for the very detailed response!

This is usually due to a improperly mixed clearcoat, and or basecoat was allowed to long to dry.
This happens quite a bit on base-coat/Clear-coat paints.
The good thing about base-coat/clear-coat paints, are that they are extremely easy to use (even a novice can't really screw up)
The base coat - goes on like a flat finish, it is fairly hard to get runs/sags in it.
Base-coat dries fairly quick, and will almost be ready for clear-coating within minutes, and is used to bring out the deep(er) shine...
My 1977 Ford F-250 has a very durable paint job with no clear coat. I have no idea what kind of paint it is but it still looks like new after 25 years of abuse. Even the bed is in good shape, shovels and gravel don't scratch it! The clear coat on my car is not peeling. It is turning into powder. I can scratch it off with my fingernail. What would you recommend for a decent quality, low cost base coat/clear paint? Remember, this car is 16 years old and has 340,000 miles on all original equipment. I don't want to spend a fortune on it. Do you know anything about the Rayflex paint I linked to above?

What kind of sprayer? (Pressure pot system, HVLP, etc..) How large of a tank?(10,20,80 gallon tank)(What is the rated compressor, PSI)
The sprayer is an HVLP. The compressor is an 80gal I believe. I can't think of the pressure rating off the top of my head. I can tell you when I get home.

How much paint do you think it would take to cover the car? If I go with a base/clear coat would a gallon of each do the trick or would I need more? One more question, what do you think about NuFinish polish? I have always used it on my vehicles (though not exactly regularly) and it seems to keep the shine for a long time but is it protecting the paint as well as a regular wax does?
 
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M

Mort Corey

Senior Audioholic
WOW.....a 25+ year old car with 340K miles and you want to spend $$ and time painting it? JMO, but I think I'd just save the expense and put it towards a future replacement. Sheeze....filling up the gas tank would almost double the value of the car :D

Mort
 
brian32672

brian32672

Banned
brian32672 said:
If by chance you can not spray the clear coat the same day (usually within minutes of base coat) It will need to be lightly scuffed with either 400 grit, or even better a fine (non-coarse) scotch pad. Please know, this will usually still be able to see fine sanding marks if clear-coated next day, or waited to long for the base coat to clear.
Please note: I was typing, and not thinking about it. Actually I had meant 800 or maybe 1000 grit. If there is a run you need to block out (that was made from the clear) it would be better to block it out with 1200.
HiHo, I am in a lot of pain atm (don't/can't type), so I will just give you my # in a PM.
 
R

riceaterslc

Audioholic
you shouldnt need to take off the factory primer, mostly because you wont be able to get another primer on as well as they do when they build your car. like everyone else said, you need a semi rough surface. the main thing is you get a paint that is designed for the ambient temperature. i think there are 2 or 3 different temperature grades. you can skip the clear if you want, but its pretty cheap compared to paint. just make sure you take your time and tape off everything. prep work is the most painful part of this process. i am assuming you have a garage to paint in since painting outdoors is nearly impossible. attached are a couple crappy pics of my engine bay after paint. 3 coats paint, 1 coat clear.

http://forums.dubr.com/albums/riceaterslc/beforedriversside.jpg
http://forums.dubr.com/albums/riceaterslc/afterdriversside.jpg
http://forums.dubr.com/albums/riceaterslc/beforepassside.jpg
http://forums.dubr.com/albums/riceaterslc/afterpassside.jpg
 
brian32672

brian32672

Banned
riceaterslc said:
the main thing is you get a paint that is designed for the ambient temperature.
This makes no difference on any of the paints I am talking about. The reducer will dictate how fast the paint will dry. They have fast evaporating, slow evaporating, special temp., brushing, etc.. reducers. As well, accelerator for colder weather. However minimal acc. needs to be used, due to - if to much is used, it will retard the paint and cause a glaze - or a dull look.
Once, again - sorry fellows (Hi Ho), I would go into more detail, but, this is absolute pain for me to type. (Most of you know of my disability)
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
Brian,

Great response. You must have exhausted your typing for the next three months! ;)

From my limited knowledge about paint, and being in the construction biz, I've always believed that earthtones were best for avoiding fade. That is why vinyl siding and vinyl windows are made in earthtone colors. You'll never see a long lasting red or brown vinyl sided house, because it will soon turn pink or taupe. Gray is a very popular color for building products because it stands up to direct sunlight without much fade.

Check composite decking materials. They've already had major problems with redwoods from Trex and TimberTech. Grey is the go-to color in composite decking if anyone is interested. Even asphalt/fiberglass/sbs roofing products fade more in darker colors. Blacks turn to gray, greens and reds lighten, and yellows fade out. Now, this is not true for all surfaces. Brick retains its color well, while most painted surfaces fade in direct southwest exposure.
 

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