Any of you guys into headphones?

[mtrycrafts]

I think you are stretching it too far. At night you have a much lower background noise floor, hence you will hear more of the masked music with a higher noise floor. Simple. Don't make it too complicated

I hope the sun doesn't have all those effects inside you home, or you need to find a real home

 

[mtrycrafts]

.....ok, Audiosouce, what are your feelings about the amplified signal arriving at the speakers as ruler-flat as possible, and then the speakers, in fact, having their own sonic signature?....in your opinion, in other words, should the speakers deviate from ruler-flat, or do we want ruler-flat from source to spl db's being realized?.....

I am not he and he may be finished here
but I think the NRC story is yes, ruler flat all the way but the speakers are the most difficult to do, obviously. Then your room will play a part after that and now as does a concert hall's acoustics and the effort they go to to get it right.

 

[mtrycrafts]

You talk about taking bias out of an equation that invloves human perception and perspective.

That is for the parts that need reliable engoineering, not when you only want what you think you like, a preference. If science cannot reproduce something repeatedly, what good is it? Zero.

Certainly, if you want to create an artificial standard of good sound by basing its definition on a general consensus,

Since the sound of anything is relative and sunjective, how would you establish what is a 'good sound?' If no one can agree, then it is chaos, and cannot be solved. Then everything is cutom made I suppose.

But, science tells us otherwise, that we can establish what this 'good sound' is by consensus of a large enough number and beinf able to replicate it consistently, not just by chance event.

So, how is it an artificial standard then?


I'm not some extremist who believes that there won't be a general, perhaps even overwhelming, consensus on what sounds good.

I am sure you are not, but then why do you question the merit, the worth and the validity of the NRC findings? That is what you are doing from th elooks of it.

Nevertheless, you and Audioswayze are taking an interesting study, and drawing from it, a conclusion that I find a bit absurd.

How so? We don't run any conclusin. The research data does that by itself.


You make the assumption that we can all agree on what sounds good.

No assumptions. That is the result of the data produced by the research. We didn't assume anything. The results are what they are.



You can take every external bias out of the equation, but how are you going to eliminate one's bias for the distorted, warm, sound of a tube amp?


Well, that is a personal choice, isn't it. You can select by biased preferences, or you can select by objective observations.


Or are you going to write that off as an anomaly, and yet another irrational "bias."

Cannot write off human nature, not yet How long did that take the Vulcans???

I understand exactly what you are trying to say... I just think your conclusions are a bit premature.

How so? Are you suggesting that the studies are flawed? Something they overlooked? After all, science is self correcting to accopunt for those events But, you would have to follow the scientific method to show the world of NRCs errors

 

[Sleestack]

Guys, I don't know what to tell you. I have acknowledged over and over again that the NRC findings are useful in that they identify what sounds good to an overwhelming majority of people. It is obvious that all I am saying is that such findings in no way create some absolute standard of "good sound." All they do is provide a good rule of thumb that most people can live by. Just because some people prefer a different sound from that standard, in no way makes their preference wrong or biased in any absolute sense. My original point of contention was that Audioswayze felt that people who preferred tube amps were making irrational choices based on factors other than aural preferences. He very clearly took the position that there is only one absolute standard of good sound and that anyone who does not agree can be explained by bias or irrationality. Do you really believe that? It would surprise me if anybody with anything beyond a 3rd grade education would.

 

[Sleestack]

I had to get drunk and dumb myself down for you first Sleestack...

As I said before, I use measurements as a guide to narrow down what can only be described as a daunting selection of components to choose from (where else does one start?). Once narrowed down to what's easily (locally) available and in my price range, of coarse my ears guide me to final decision. Even if a component meats all those criteria, if I don't like the sound, it ain't worth sh$%.

I bring along my Rat Shack (sorry, The Source by Circuit City) SPL, level the volume on all components, turn my back and have a buddy switch them by saying "A", "B", etc. I tally up the one I prefer for my criteria (the one that sounds best to me, if there's any difference at all) and turn around to find out what I picked, It's not always what I thought I'd pick. If I hear little differnce between two options with vastly different prices, why would I pick the expensive one? Because of the name? Of coarse not, I'm smarter than that and don't suffer from snob appeal (much). Then I write the cheque.

My preferences do tend to follow the very criteria I listed previously. I like a full range sound where one frequencey doesn't stand out from the rest like lots of highs but no low end impact (flat frequency response and wide bandwidth). I prefer when I can hear the same sound moving around the room (wide and constant dispersion) and have no tolerance for static, hiss or other distortion when I crank it past respectable volumes. What's cool is objective graphs directly relate to what I hear. Therefore, graphs of a component I haven't heard will relate to what I can EXPECT to hear...see how it works?

And while I know ruler flat will likely never be achieved, I think it should be the goal. Without a goal, what are we working towards? I'm not some NRC natzi, but there has to be a way to cut through all the bullsh$% and marketing hype, which is the very purpose of this site (or so I thought). That's why I'm so astonished that people (forum cult hobbyists) that read (troll, bait) these particular forums staunchly refuse to recognize it's validity. And surprise, surprise, price is rarely the determining factor of performance.

Great, I love a good pinata, who's got the bat!

You are obviously dumb enough already. I would avoid the bottle if I were you.

You clearly live in fear of being duped by marketing ploys. Try to get a little smarter in a practical sense. Make yourself some more money so you don't have to turn every audio purchasing decision into a DBT geek-fest. There is a simple way to cut through the BS. Use your ears.

 

[mulester7]

I think you are stretching it too far. At night you have a much lower background noise floor, hence you will hear more of the masked music with a higher noise floor. Simple. Don't make it too complicated

I hope the sun doesn't have all those effects inside you home, or you need to find a real home

.....Myrycrafts, I happen to have a brick home with double windows that surely cancels out a daytime background noise floor ....my system sounds better to me at night hands down....I think there's merit in my theory of atmospheric damping with heavier thicker settled air at night....I'll give your theory some merit also....who's buying the coffee?.....

.....(wow, slept a whole hour and 1/2 and the phone rang to take a coal train to Van Buren....this working once every few weeks may take it's toll on me yet)....

 

[mulester7]

I am not he and he may be finished here
but I think the NRC story is yes, ruler flat all the way but the speakers are the most difficult to do, obviously. Then your room will play a part after that and now as does a concert hall's acoustics and the effort they go to to get it right.

.....Mtrycrafts, I don't know the technicals of this one, but a valued opinion says I want ruler-flat right up to the speakers....considering that opinion made my speakers of which I am in awe, I'll go with that....

 

[WmAx]

.....Myrycrafts, I happen to have a brick home with double windows that surely cancels out a daytime background noise floor ....my system sounds better to me at night hands down....I think there's merit in my theory of atmospheric damping with heavier thicker settled air at night....I'll give your theory some merit also....who's buying the coffee?.....

I thought you were initially joking. Come on, that atmospheric thing is really grasping...

BTW, I'm lucky enough, that my stereo sounds pretty much the same to me, regardless if it's day or night, but looking back at the situation, it might have more to do with the large solid MDF panels I sealed over the windows to block sound and light, rather than luck.

-Chris

 

[mtrycrafts]

.....Myrycrafts, I happen to have a brick home with double windows that surely cancels out a daytime background noise floor ....my system sounds better to me at night hands down....I think there's merit in my theory of atmospheric damping with heavier thicker settled air at night....I'll give your theory some merit also....who's buying the coffee?.....

.....(wow, slept a whole hour and 1/2 and the phone rang to take a coal train to Van Buren....this working once every few weeks may take it's toll on me yet)....

Double pane windows are better than single, but get the sound specs from the window maker. Don't be surprised if it still lets in too much noise

Second: invest in a thermostat and humidity gauge and start recording the numbers. Depending on construction quality, temp should be pretty stable as would humidity. Mine does
You may want to search the net for research on hearing with only a few degrees of tem change or a few % of Rel humidity change.
You may want to call NRC in Canada and ask

Third: How did you compare the daytime and night time comparisons? Memory over a 12 hour period? Come now, you can fool some of the people...

Last, enjoy the music, stop chasing every conceivable idea on the planet

 

[mtrycrafts]

.....Mtrycrafts, I don't know the technicals of this one, but a valued opinion says I want ruler-flat right up to the speakers....considering that opinion made my speakers of which I am in awe, I'll go with that....

I think we agree?

 

[mtrycrafts]

There is a simple way to cut through the BS. Use your ears.

Yes, that is exactly what you do in a DBT, use your ears and ears alone.
I think what you suggest is really using your eyes to make a selection otherwise you would have no problem with a DBT

 

[mtrycrafts]

Guys, I don't know what to tell you. I have acknowledged over and over again that the NRC findings are useful in that they identify what sounds good to an overwhelming majority of people. It is obvious that all I am saying is that such findings in no way create some absolute standard of "good sound." All they do is provide a good rule of thumb that most people can live by. Just because some people prefer a different sound from that standard, in no way makes their preference wrong or biased in any absolute sense. My original point of contention was that Audioswayze felt that people who preferred tube amps were making irrational choices based on factors other than aural preferences. He very clearly took the position that there is only one absolute standard of good sound and that anyone who does not agree can be explained by bias or irrationality. Do you really believe that? It would surprise me if anybody with anything beyond a 3rd grade education would.

Are you saying that you would prefer the tube sound, if that component is audibly different as not all tube amps sound different, when not biased? That would have to be a surprise to most.
Again, nothing wrong with a preference for anything, even tubes
I am not sure about absolutes since this univers has very few, I think.

 

[Sleestack]

Are you saying that you would prefer the tube sound, if that component is audibly different as not all tube amps sound different, when not biased? That would have to be a surprise to most.
Again, nothing wrong with a preference for anything, even tubes
I am not sure about absolutes since this univers has very few, I think.

My point exactly. There are no absolutes when it comes to matters of preference. You might be able determine what sounds good to an overwhelming majority of people, but that doesn't establish an absolute standard of "good sound." I think it is clear that has been my only real point of contention. I do believe I would prefer certain tube components, although I have definitely never subjected myself to a rigorous DBT. That being said, I listen to music about 8 hours a day and have a good assortment of gear. I know that generally, I find a setup with solid state gear in every link of the chain tends to be a bit bright for my tastes. Very detailed, but not how live music sounds to me. When I put a tube preamp (EAR 864) in my system, there is a warmth and resonance that I find much more similar to the environment I like to be in when I listen to live music... small jazz clubs. Furthermore, I listen to a lot of jazz, female vocals and blues. I simply prefer the way that my particular tube preamp makes my music sound. I'm not sure why that has to be considered irrational. Would I be better off listening to a setup that doesn't sound good to me? I think that would truly be irrational. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Steve1000]

Headphones....

What a nice start this was for this thread (see quote from warpdrive below)!

As far as preferences go, I think the headphone world leaves a little more room for subjective judgment than other parts of the audio chain or even speakers. The odds of doing a double blind test between pairs of headphones seem to be at or near zero. So subjective, biased perceptions are going to play a part. It may be that using DBTs the vast majority of people prefer a certain kind of sound. But you are never going to find out what that sound is with headphones. Different ears have different shapes and with the headphones right on top your ears I am convinced different people get different end results with headphones, moreso than with speakers. Also, as I said, I don't see how you could ever fully DBT headphones. So this sort of philosophical debate I am reading here in this thread perhaps doesn't help the headphone enthusiast in his search for headphone nirvana (which, by the way, I have reached ).

Also, with headphones, as warpdrive suggests, you have the opportunity to acquire different excellent sounds (different sets of excellent headphones) relatively cheaply and to cycle through them, alternate through them, learn from them, be curious about them, at will, unlike with speakers. To me, this is a little nicer and a lot more fun than worrying about what headphone the vast majority would prefer in a DBT, especially since a DBT ain't gonna happen with headphones. I have all my main phones hanging by my bedside. Speakers would be a different story, this sort of philosophical what's the best thinking would make sense for speaker design or speaker shopping. For headphones, just buy two! Or three! Or four.....

I also have a Behringer DEQ2496 digital equalizer in the loop in my main headphone rig. This increases my enjoyment and satsifaciton enormously. This can alter the sound signature in an unimaginable number of ways. In addition to having an incredible gadget value and an incredible audio enthusiast value (as far as improving audio quality enormously), it's also extremely educational to get familiar with what changes in different parts of the audio spectrum sound like. If a particular pair of headphones or a particular recording is flawed or is bugging me, I can change it to suit my preferences quite quickly. Each headphone's sound signature becomes infinitely variable. I can increase the fidelity or enjoyment of a pair of headphones very quickly and effectively. Since there are no room interactions as a variable, high quality EQ goes straight to the heart of the headphone experience.

The etymonics and grado headphones warpdrive has are very nice indeed. I have many pairs of headphones. The ones I really like for sound quality that I have and listen to often are Grado SR60s, Senn HD280s & HD580s, and Sony MDR-CD580s, MDR-CD780s, and MDR-V6s. As WmAx can tell you, I go through periods of preferring any one of these to the others, swearing that I like one better than all the others. But these are the ones I have that really hit that critical level of sound quality for me so that it's pretty much a "go" all the way. With the DEQ2496 in the loop I don't need to go and search for something just a little better. I can make it just a little better very easily. These are all headphones I would give at least 9 out of 10 to for sound quality. They're all relatively cheap, too. I've given a listen to nearly every expensive headphone out there today, and these have held their own.

I think with headphones, there is a natural preference for a little extra mid-bass, in compensation for the lack of the visceral bass you get with loudspeakers or loud music filling the air and impacting more than just the ears. Also, as WmAx alluded to, I think empirically it seems that most prefer something a little shy of razor flat highs with headphones... for one reason or another (perhaps recording techniques, or the immediacy of headphones) it can get harsh. The extent one wants a little extra mid-bass or a rolled off highs with headphones is going to vary widely, in my experience.

I also have the aforementioned Corda HA-1 amp, a Behringer mixer, and a JVC minisystem looped into my headphone setup. My sources are my JVC minisystem, an ipod, a Sony DVD player, a Sony minidisc player, an XM radio, and a loose portable input. Everything is set up at my bedside like a Rube Goldberg device. I can accomplish any particular objective in several combinations of connections and components, from the shortest path possible to keeping things in the digital domain as much as possible to going round and round and round for that wonderful feedback loop sound.

And all that together is the nicest hi-fi thing I've ever had in my whole life.

If you actually took the time to read this, thanks.

Are you a fellow head-fi member? I'm suffering from supreme headphone upgraditis....I'm tend to want to try new headphones. It's so much cheaper experimenting and upgrading headphones than anything else, and it's like speakers, every headphone has something unique to offer.

Right now, I'm using my new Etymotics ER-4S plugged into a Airhead amp for portable use, or my Grado SR-60's when I don't want isolation.

At home, I'm using Grado SR225's. Their supreme detail works really well for movies, I find I can understand dialogue more clearly with these headphones while watching movies. They don't go terribly deep in the bass, but explosions and stuff are rendered with lots of impact. Very nice.

 

[mtrycrafts]

My point exactly. There are no absolutes when it comes to matters of preference.

Oh, good, we agree. Actually there is no real need for any standards for a preference. It just is, even if biased most likely

Would I be better off listening to a setup that doesn't sound good to me? I think that would truly be irrational. Wouldn't you agree?

No, of course not Be happy Just express a preference to be on the safe side of things
I think we skinned this too thin

 

[Sleestack]

I think we skinned this too thin

I hear that.

 

[mulester7]

I thought you were initially joking. Come on, that atmospheric thing is really grasping...

BTW, I'm lucky enough, that my stereo sounds pretty much the same to me, regardless if it's day or night, but looking back at the situation, it might have more to do with the large solid MDF panels I sealed over the windows to block sound and light, rather than luck.

-Chris

.....WmAx, as I stated before, wingin' it is hard work and can get wordy, haha.....

.....Gentlemen, it doesn't matter what you come back with, my mind is made up....when the sun goes down, the damping increases from barometric pressure increases by stilled air....you don't think air has molecular weight?.....

 

[mulester7]

I think we agree?

.....MOST definitely possibly.....

 

[WmAx]

.....WmAx, as I stated before, wingin' it is hard work and can get wordy, haha.....

.....Gentlemen, it doesn't matter what you come back with, my mind is made up....when the sun goes down, the damping increases from barometric pressure increases by stilled air....you don't think air has molecular weight?.....

The barometric pressure changes more as a function of day to day weather.... if you want more of a consistant night vs. day difference, humidity usually increases significantly at night[but a proper climate controlled home should make this a non-issue], but these are both issues that are pretty obscure and hard to show have any correlation, though humidity definately affects physical comfort. What level of difference on acoustic response, for example, do you think that a 0.01 in. difference[the difference at my area yesterday 12A.M. vs. 12P.M.] makes? Or are you intending that this affects the overall psychological state related to enjoyment of music? If so, then several days at a time, often, that involve pressure variations, should make it difficult to enjoy your stereo at anytime of the day. But so far as visual input difference: I can try to concentrate, then listen to my stereo with eyes open vs. closed, and the difference[with visual input] of immersion/enjoyment is huge and immediate... and it's the same deal with most people I've asked... and in the day[or at night with the main room lights turned on], the light[even with eyes closed] is still clearly visible through the thin flesh eyelids. Of course, this might not affect everyone.

-Chris

 

[warpdrive]

Wow, I thought I clicked on the wrong thread

Anyway, I'm thinking of buying another set. I've narrowed it down to the Sennheiser HD600, Beyer DT880 or Sennheiser HD595

I'm leaning away from the HD600 just because it's a warmer, darker sounding headphone (first impressions), almost too much so. The 650 is too much for $ for me although it sounds great. The 880 and 595 would be a less of a shock coming from the Grado's but still be complemetary. They should also be more comfortable to wear for longer periods of time. I dig my Grado's for rock and pop but sometimes they are just too unforgiving in the high frequencies depending on the source material.