Any heavy equipment owner/operators around these parts?

jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Been looking at mini-ex + sub compact front loader or just a larger compact tractor or TLB.

So smaller ~25HP units or one larger ~60HP do it all.
 
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OHMisback

Audioholic
I can offer some advise. Check the pins and bushings to make sure they were greased and checked for wear.
It can be expensive to repair and there is always a safety issue. I check all the fluids for contamination and being
maintained. AS IN being topped off and filter changes as needed. The horsepower rating is the key. You can wind
up with an expensive engine to maintain if it has a burner for emissions. Don't be to eager for more power.. It can cost.

BTW Grease is inexpensive, parts and mechanics aren't. Grease at the end of a shift it pushes any contaminates out
instead of it setting between pins, bushings and seals over night or until the next use.
Check the fluids before you start anything. The morning usually. At the noon hour, look for leaks. Check the grease,
sometimes it's twice a day.. Grease is cheap.. remember.. :)

Happy hunting.

Regards
 
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jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
In general how do the hours of use count? I assume it's dependent on the engine size for starts. Also what years did all the emissions start taking place. Is it still worth it to look at pre-emission gear?

Would you get a smaller mini-ex plus a sub compact TLB? or just a larger TLB like a 410?
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
In general how to the hours of use count? I assume it's dependent on the engine size for starts. Also what years did all the emissions start taking place. Is it still worth it to look at pre-emission gear?

Would you get a smaller mini-ex plus a sub compact TLB? or just a larger TLB like a 410?
I think this all depends on whether you want to go vintage or newer. Vintage tractors can be a real bargain if you know what you are doing.

While we owned our lake home for 20 years, I used two vintage tractors hard, and I mean hard. They were easy to maintain. After 20 years, I made a profit on the sale of one and broke even on the other. JD Waterloo tractors are pretty much indestructible and are really hard workers.

For newer gear, I would primarily look at Kubota and JD. In new tractors there is a lot of junk out there, like everything else these days, and I would bring in all tractors under the FIAT umbrella. FIAT really does stand for "Fix it again Tony"!

The 60 HP Kubota diesel is a very tough and reliable engine, and the rest of those tractors up to a good standard.

JD are very well made. A lot of their lighter use tractors use the Vanmar engine. It is pretty good, but I used to get to see more of those with problems than the Kubota. At the lake everything had a habit of being my problem! The only thing I remember being an issue with the Kubota was the mechanical diesel lift pump. It is easily changed, but they are known for this.

As far as hours, if a good tractor has been well looked after, then it will give thousands of hours of service. Look at the general condition, especially make sure the hydraulic hoses are in good condition and not cracking at the terminations. It is pointers like these that point to poor or no maintenance.

In general farmers tend to look after their equipment well, general contractors not so much.

Look at the auctions, often auctions will give you the best deal. Generally experienced individuals attend these and the bidding will be a very good guide as to what it is really worth.
 
P

Push

Audioholic
In addition to the advice already given, if you are looking at older units, the Massey Industrial line-up is close to bulletproof and generally much more affordable than the Dear Johnnies. Older Komatsu stuff is worth looking at as well.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
How are 3 point attachments classified? Are they proprietary to the manufacturer?

Also is a $30K budget for a TLB ~60HP range reasonable to expect something decent?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
How are 3 point attachments classified? Are they proprietary to the manufacturer?

Also is a $30K budget for a TLB ~60HP range reasonable to expect something decent?
I agree the older Massey gear is OK, as long as it is the older gear. Also Case and International before the FIAT takeover is OK. The problem with Massey and Case etc. is that spares are hard to come by, and you will be looking for used parts most likely. JD on the other hand are well supported by parts with tractors going back years, just like Caterpillar. Both those companies reckon correctly, that keeping old gear running well, is worth any amount spent on advertising. They are correct about that.

The Kubota gear will not be as old as a lot of gear from iconic manufacturers.

Also it would be helpful to know where you live, as different areas have had different proportions of trusted lines, largely because of dealer network.
A long term family owned dealership can, and does, change what is around locally, to a significant degree.

As far as hitches, they are standard, but have different categories and then there is the "quick hitch".

The article will explain.

So you will need to purchase implements for the class of hitch you have.

Having said that I would not purchase a tractor with a hitch below class 3. HP is not the whole answer. My JD model A had a class 3 and was 39 HP.
However because of the enormous torque and heavy flywheel, it easily out plowed my neighbors Bobcat with a 60 HP Kubota.

I also had a class 3 on my JD 420 that was 29 HP. If you do end up going for an older tractor, don't be put off by the rated HP. Older tractors will often outperform their modern counter parts. I have seen JD model As on the ergometer at Rollag, peak out at around 65 HP, when rated at 39 HP.

I'm not a huge lover of the quick hitch, which is now generally the rule on more modern equipment.

One other issue, tractors older than the fifties only came with rocker arms and not a three point hitch, unless a Ford or Ferguson. This was because of the famous handshake agreement between Harry Ferguson (the inventor of the three point hitch) and Henry Ford. Edsel Ford managed to abrogate the agreement displaying his legendary stupidity, and then the three point hitch was public domain. Being a 1948 tractor, my model A did not have a three point hitch, but one was easily fashioned, so it always had a class three hitch when I owned it. The 420 being 1958 always had a class three hitch.

If you live in driving distance of Rollag Minnesota, then you really should get to the annual Labor day weekend Steam Threshers Reunion.
This is a massive site, where around 1600 skilled machinists and mechanics spend the summer on site in a caravan park and restore and keep a vast array of tractors and other implements restored and working. It is a huge site in a really beautiful location.
If you attend you would get the education I think you require, before embarking on your tractor adventure. You see number plates there from just about every state in the union, every year.

If you want to come, I would be more than happy to host you, and give you the grand tour.
I have always attended in my well oil stained overalls. The one year I did not, as I had been asked to escort a party of four. That year a guy with a Waterloo JD series tractor, had to be towed out of the morning parade. He did no know how to adjust the clutch, which is in the belt pulley. I saw him struggling with it, and gave him a hand showing him how to set the clutch. He gave me a big thumbs up, as he want past the grandstand in the afternoon parade. Needless to say I got absolutely filthy!
 
O

OHMisback

Audioholic
The rule on hydraulic hoses is 5 years. That is the law. How often it is looked at is ONLY when there is an incident.
Other than that I've seen hydraulic hoses 30+ years old working away. I worry about the inside coming apart and
contaminating the filters and THEN the filters explode. Flaps inside the hose too. Older equipment is just fine until.
The emission issue is more of a cost beware!!!

Hobby farmers and the like aren't under the same watchful eye, like contractors. You can't uses a Tier Zero
legally anywhere in CA. Hobby farmers are even being looked at.. Visual opacity is a NO NO. NO SMOKE!!
Usually exempt because of the number of pieces.. BUT no smoke for any inspections. 1 minute start up.
5 minute shut down..

Tier 4 engines are VERY expensive.. The last one I installed was over 50,000.00 euro Deutz. 5 years before
the same HP and torque was under 20,000 usd.

I look at the hydraulic pumps, I could care less about the engine (unless it is tiered). I look for LOAD SENSING
Hydraulic pumps. They use WAY less fuel.. Danfoss is a personal favorite. MCV and controls, Danfoss.

Bobcat used 4 or 5 different engines.
Cat uses Cat/Perkins
Green JD use to use the engine you wanted..

A LOT of the foreign engine manufactures CAN'T meet US/Canadian emission standards. Great engines but not here.
Our fuel tears up the fuel pumps in some of their engines..

Two stroke and air cooled were the biggies for pollution. I can hear the ol 6V Detroits now. Noisy pieces of scat.. They could burn
some fuel too, or oil, or bacon fat or just about anything that would burn except GASOLINE. You'll blow a new one up now.
The injector tips would blow off and destroy the engine.. You're not even suppose to prime with unfiltered fuel. ALL tear 4 and
above require an electric lift pump/primer. NO ETHER either. Use gasoline on a cold COLD start.. Ether knocks holes in pistons.

Never-Sees and grease is your friend, Ether and funky fuel is your enemy.

MOST 3 points are rated by bar weight and the ability to add counterweight. Gannon boxes will fit a Ford, Kubota, Massy.
Pin size and width. 60 HP for a Gannon with a front blade minimum. Burn the engine down trying to work a Gannon.

I think I forgot more than I can remember. :)
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
At what hours does stuff start becoming iffy? I understand not all hours are the same.

Just like mileage. There is a difference between 100K of city vs highway.
 
O

OHMisback

Audioholic
It boils down to maintenance. Period. The best indicator of good maintenance is a proper log of
the maintenance preformed.
Daily (8hrs), weekly (40-50hrs), service, oil/filter change (250hrs), 500hrs inspections and service,
1000hrs inspections and BOX oil change.

Take a GOOD HD mechanic to check it out. I usually check the hydraulic oil pretty close. Pin and
bushing slop. Look at the oil filters and see if the hours are written on the filters. They should,
if not ASK WHY? If they reply WHY? Look at them and offer 1/2 the asking price..
Then they will understand WHY.

A good SOAP test will tell you everything. Spectral Oil Analysis Program. Take samples.

Under 5000 hours with a good service record is good for another 5,000 with some hose changes.

I've seen equipment completely destroyed in 2000 hours.
I've also seen 50,000 hours on Liebherr, JD and Cat. They were just in for repairs..

Rentals from a good rental company is a prime source of used lower hour machines. They rent to own too.
Trained operators can be rough but usually they are easy enough on them to avoid repair cost.

On the other hand a rookie operator can break an anvil. You can tell by bent control valve handles. Usually
handles are bent everywhere including the seat adjustment handle. I look for NEW dipsticks too..

I've seen a few bad wrecks too. One guy backed off a 3 or 5 story building. The same job site they toppled a crane
and BACKED over a manager on his CELL phone in a pit. LOL They shut the job down and drug tested everybody.
Half the people left the Los Vegas job site. I HATED LOS VEGAS road calls. Summer or winter, it sucks..
CES was always cool though. :)

BTW that skid steer was put back in service AFTER the guy was washed out of the cab.. He WAS a BIG older
fellow to. It was tragic he was 56 years old. 38 years on the job.

Regards
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
At what hours does stuff start becoming iffy? I understand not all hours are the same.

Just like mileage. There is a difference between 100K of city vs highway.
That depends entirely on how it is looked after, the design and reputation of the tractor and if it was a good design in the first place. Some are just dogs from the start.

If you take a JD Waterloo tractor, those are the horizontal two cylinders, with the 180 degree firing cycle, the old timers tell me they never wear out.

I know the history of mine. I was the third owner. The first only had it a few months. The second owners were a family I know well, having looked after three generations at one time or another. I know they were excellent mechanics, and had taken good care of it, despite very hard continuous use over years. That tractor always had normal oil pressure. It used no oil. It stated first piston up, hot or cold. It pulled like an ox, and begged for more. When I sold it at auction it was 71 years old. I looked after it carefully, and it left me at least as good and may be better then when I paid $3,300 for the old girl at auction.

These are the sort of snow banks she would regularly throw up.



And start in the depths of winter, just like mid summer.

So there are no hard and fast rules. I will say if you have a modicum of mechanical sense, a good vintage tractor is one of the best bargains on the planet.

With respect, you seem a novice at this, so you might want to find someone you trust with experience.

Also this type of equipment is very dangerous if you don't know what you are doing. So advice with purchase and some instruction, if you have not operated this type of equipment before, is strongly advised.

It so happens that heavy equipment was the family business. My father was a captain in the Royal Engineers. In other words he was a "Sapper". He went into business with his regimental sergeant major after world war two. They built up a large fleet of heavy equipment eventually with depots, North and South of the Thames in the greater London area. So as kid I learnt to operate it, but even more importantly, by spending time with the fitters, how to take apart, fix and reassemble large equipment. I have to say that this company gave me a good start in life, and actually made me comfortable in retirement. So, understandably I have a soft spot for this type of machinery. By extraordinary happenstance it chose my career, but that is a story for another time, and it all has to do with grubby fingers!
 
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OHMisback

Audioholic
Interesting... I worked on a lot of Masseys and JD were the skip loader of choice. I spent a lifetime as a HD
mechanic out of the OE and IMASW labor halls. I'm glad I'm DONE.. LOL I finished with foundational drills and
concrete pumps. I HATE CONCRETE and GROUT. LOL

Being a mechanic is hard on ya. Drilling and hammer work even more so.. 24" holes 40-80 feet deep are spooky.
Ya never know what going to come out of, that hole.. I love buried unmarked power lines. The machines fare about
as well as a lightning strike. NOT VERY!! The operators don't do to well either.

That's a machine that will drive you nut with future failures. Lightning strikes and HV mishaps. You could look for
BURN MARKS.. LOL Plasma burns... Powder! the movie comes to mind.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
With respect, you seem a novice at this, so you might want to find someone you trust with experience.
While I've done everything up to an engine rebuild in a car I don't want to think I can extend that knowledge in what constitutes what to look for in a piece of heavy machinery.

Just like cars though I want to find particular makes and models to look at and conversely stay away from. Understanding that lower hours are typically better than higher hours my ask is what is the general concensus on hours. Is 4000 getting iffy? 7000? is 500 just getting started?
 
O

OHMisback

Audioholic
Well OP you're kind of going in circles.

Do you know a HD mechanic? You need to inspect the unit. You can pay a person for an inspection.
It's as simple as that. Maintenance records are a dead giveaway. Marked filters are a clue. Hours only matter
IF they reflect actual work done on that unit. It needs to be inspected, correctly. That usually involves a digger bar
a flash light and another person to look for abnormal wear. I like to see a cold start too.

You can ruin a piece of equipment in 100 hours, I've seen it more than once. The same piece of machinery with
maintenance will last 30,000 hours..

It's NOT the hours, it's the maintenance and abuse. Next, was it repaired correctly? YOU NEED a qualified person.
You made a good case for it. Follow your own good sense.

Personally I would stay away from vintage equipment. It can be VERY dangerous..
Especially the old belt and chain drives. I'm not a big fan of the older cable dozers either. They are getting way too old.

I would also make sure if it had a PTO it can be dabbed (clutched in and out) for bush hog work or added pulling power
by disengaging the drive. Pulling stumps you want the power at the axel not at the aux/PTO drive..

Fruit for thought.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Thanks. This is more of what I'm making sure I understand. And of course I'm going to have someone that wrenches on this stuff look at whatever I end up purchasing.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Thanks. This is more of what I'm making sure I understand. And of course I'm going to have someone that wrenches on this stuff look at whatever I end up purchasing.
It would be really helpful, if you could tell us what you plan to use this tractor for. In addition what attachments you want to use, and whether you need a front end loader and or backhoe. The remaining piece of information is how frequently you intend to use it, especially how many hours a year you intend to use it for.

You will need at least a modicum of mechanical skills if you intend to use a tractor. If you have never used, or do not posses a reasonable assortment of tools, then owning a tractor is probably not for you. They are higher maintenance than cars, and you don't get to run them into the dealer easily.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
It would be really helpful, if you could tell us what you plan to use this tractor for. In addition what attachments you want to use, and whether you need a front end loader and or backhoe. The remaining piece of information is how frequently you intend to use it, especially how many hours a year you intend to use it for.

You will need at least a modicum of mechanical skills if you intend to use a tractor. If you have never used, or do not posses a reasonable assortment of tools, then owning a tractor is probably not for you. They are higher maintenance than cars, and you don't get to run them into the dealer easily.

Looking at 60 acres and need is for footers, post hole, and general property maintenance. Land would be undeveloped for starts.

I have above average mechanical skills. Just in automotive realm.

I would need a TLB to start and then add post-hole, brush hog, as needed.

When I got into the DIY audio realm I had zero wood working experience. And now I've a full shop and can churn out cabinetry with the best and also taught classes at my local Wood Craft store.

I only know one way to learn...
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Looking at 60 acres and need is for footers, post hole, and general property maintenance. Land would be undeveloped for starts.

I have above average mechanical skills. Just in automotive realm.

I would need a TLB to start and then add post-hole, brush hog, as needed.

When I got into the DIY audio realm I had zero wood working experience. And now I've a full shop and can churn out cabinetry with the best and also taught classes at my local Wood Craft store.

I only know one way to learn...
In that case, you have what it takes not to end up with a total disaster.

60 acres is a lot of land. For what you intend to do, I think I would go used. It will hold value and you can trade up.

I think I would go for a JD 110. Make sure you get the 4WD version and not the 2 WD version. Good ones can be found mid to up thirty thousand dollars.

It looks as if you will put this to good use. I think JD is your best bet. They are good units, and above all good availability of spares and service is a given. With the foreign products spares can be a nightmare.

I think a slightly bigger tractor would be an advantage, but that will blow the budget. A used 110 will be a good starter unit for you.
 
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