Anthem 1140 or Denon A1H

[famasfilms]

I upgraded from a Denon 6500 to an Anthem 1140 a few weeks ago. I have been underwhelmed so far by the Anthem. Perhaps I undervalued the 6500 as I picked it up used from someone who originally listed it as the 6700!

I was using the 6500 with a Lyngdorf 1120 in ht-bypass mode. This gave me a lot of pleasure for music but I was never able to integrate/calibrate the 1120 with the 6500 and bass was boomy/overpowering. I recently moved the sub back to the 6500 and let Audyssey handle everything (via the OCA Audyssey One script) and this really reinvigorated my system - bass sounded much cleaner and clearer. I went from only watching a movie when there was a new release to going back through all my favourites and watching a movie nightly. WIthout the sub I felt the 1120 wasn't being utilised fully so part exchanged it for the Anthem.

I didn't hear much improvement, music felt a bit lack-lustre and I also have a fan that is audible during quiet scenes as well some other bugs/frustrations like audio missing the start of a track upon initial playback, or Plex audio taking 2-3s to resume after rewind/forward. Ialso had to buy a Wiim Pro to replace the built in streaming functionality of the Lyngdorf

I don't have a return period for the Anthem because I part exchanged it via FB marketplace.

There is a retailer that has an open box Denon A1H. If I can recoup what I paid for the 1140 including the part ex value of the 1120, and trade in my 6500 then it would cost me an other £800 for the A1H. Or I can stick with the 6500. I probably wouldn't pay for Dirac immediately and would rely on Audyssey One to optimise my calibration

To complicate matters, I just did a new Arc Genesis calibration that unaltered sounds better than all the ones I have tried before. I don't have the technical knowledge to tweak Arc Genesis myself.

Just curious in a straight shootout whether the A1H should be an improvement over the 1140

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

@PENG has extensively compared Dirac vs Audyssey vs ARC-G.

 

[Oddball]

Pending response from the ultimate authority, I would say that in absence of desire or knowledge to tweak, ARC might be the simplest EQ to set up for solid results.

Not really following the Lyngdorf part of the thread though - was a bit lazy to look it up.

 

[famasfilms]

I edited out the bit about audyssey one / genesis. I wasn't asking which is better.

I was asking which AVR is going to be "better" sound quality wise including for music as well as movies.

I have a 7.1.4 system with Monitor Audio Silver 500s at the front and the Silver c350 centre. I almost definitely won't be buying a Dirac license and I almost definitely won't add any more speakers. I don't have a dedicated home theatre room, just a nicely symmetrical 5m x 3.3m room

 

[PENG]

I edited out the bit about audyssey one / genesis. I wasn't asking which is better.

I was asking which AVR is going to be "better" sound quality wise including for music as well as movies.

I have a 7.1.4 system with Monitor Audio Silver 500s at the front and the Silver c350 centre. I almost definitely won't be buying a Dirac license and I almost definitely won't add any more speakers. I don't have a dedicated home theatre room, just a nicely symmetrical 5m x 3.3m room

On paper, the A1H is far superior, but in real world use, if in pure direct mode, I expect all 3 will sound equally great.

If RC is used, if run properly, Dirac will do best based on measurements, followed by Audyssey, ARCG will work okay but don't expect pretty curves.

DL and Audyssey are very tweakable, ARCG is too, but is hard to tweak for good measurements, because for one thing, it is highly restricted whereas DL and Audy let you shape the target curve between 20 and 20kHz, like having infinite PEQ filters, on top of their own FIR filters.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I was asking which AVR is going to be "better" sound quality wise including for music as well as movies.

It depends each person’s experience. Just because ONE or two people had a better personal experience with one brand does not mean everyone else will agree.

In your experience (and some other cases), you didn’t like the Anthem that much.

@PENG has used Anthem and Denon/Marantz, and he can get both to sound great.

I have used Yamaha and Denon/Marantz, and I can get both to sound great.

If you think the Denon x6500 sounds better than the Anthem, then, of course, the Denon A1 will also sound better than the Anthem.

 

[famasfilms]

It depends each person’s experience. Just because ONE or two people had a better personal experience with one brand does not mean everyone else will agree.

In your experience (and some other cases), you didn’t like the Anthem that much.

.

If you think the Denon x6500 sounds better than the Anthem, then, of course, the Denon A1 will also sound better than the Anthem.

I guess I was expecting to hear an audible improvement in going up a tier in terms of brand, but haven't heard an improvement. It's not that I think the 6500 sounds better, I just haven't heard that improvement. Plus the bugs and quirks. Even just now I found another one, watching YouTube via my Nvidia shield and the audio is crackling

Plus I think I'm more confident in running audyssey and then using audyssey one to optimise it, than using ArC genesis and sending the file to someone off another forum to tweak who isn't in my room, doesn't know my preferences etc

If I had bought the 1140 from a retailer with a trial period at it's RRP then it would definitely go back

Even at the total value of what I paid in cash plus the part ex value of my lyngdorf I think I would still send it back, but as I bought off FB I don't have that option

So now my options are, to stick with the 1140, to try to sell on eBay for what I paid plus trade in my 6500 to get an open box a1h or sell to stick with 6500 (which would probably still leave me with an itch to upgrade)

That itch to upgrade implies I'm chasing an improvement even if it's not necessarily going to be audible. The a1h could hopefully be an end game avr

 

[PENG]

I guess I was expecting to hear an audible improvement in going up a tier in terms of brand, but haven't heard an improvement. It's not that I think the 6500 sounds better, I just haven't heard that improvement. Plus the bugs and quirks. Even just now I found another one, watching YouTube via my Nvidia shield and the audio is crackling

Plus I think I'm more confident in running audyssey and then using audyssey one to optimise it, than using ArC genesis and sending the file to someone off another forum to tweak who isn't in my room, doesn't know my preferences etc

If I had bought the 1140 from a retailer with a trial period at it's RRP then it would definitely go back

Even at the total value of what I paid in cash plus the part ex value of my lyngdorf I think I would still send it back, but as I bought off FB I don't have that option

So now my options are, to stick with the 1140, to try to sell on eBay for what I paid plus trade in my 6500 to get an open box a1h or sell to stick with 6500 (which would probably still leave me with an itch to upgrade)

That itch to upgrade implies I'm chasing an improvement even if it's not necessarily going to be audible. The a1h could hopefully be an end game avr

Can you not find a local Denon dealer to take the 1140 as trade in for the A1H?

Actually, the Cinema 30 or even the AVR-X6800H is a better value than the 1140.

Back to the trade in scenario, I traded in my 4 years old AVR-X4400H for the AVM70, and was very happy with the deal.

 

[famasfilms]

Can you not find a local Denon dealer to take the 1140 as trade in for the A1H?

Actually, the Cinema 30 or even the AVR-X6800H is a better value than the 1140.

They probably wouldn't give me close to what I can get hopefully get on eBay/FB marketplace. That's what the retailer with the open box a1h said.

Well I pulled the trigger on the A1H, there's always a 30 day return period....

 

[PENG]

They probably wouldn't give me close to what I can get hopefully get on eBay/FB marketplace. That's what the retailer with the open box a1h said.

Okay then you may have to sell it, or just keep it and spend time tweaking it ARCG, using REW to guide you. I cannot understand how some could tweak others file site unseen, but people seem to like the results (Placebo? Maybe..) To me, doibg it yourself using REW is the right way.

As for bugs, make sure you update to the latest FW, there's bug fixes in almost all of the updates.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I guess I was expecting to hear an audible improvement in going up a tier in terms of brand, but haven't heard an improvement. It's not that I think the 6500 sounds better, I just haven't heard that improvement. Plus the bugs and quirks. Even just now I found another one, watching YouTube via my Nvidia shield and the audio is crackling

Plus I think I'm more confident in running audyssey and then using audyssey one to optimise it, than using ArC genesis and sending the file to someone off another forum to tweak who isn't in my room, doesn't know my preferences etc

If I had bought the 1140 from a retailer with a trial period at it's RRP then it would definitely go back

Even at the total value of what I paid in cash plus the part ex value of my lyngdorf I think I would still send it back, but as I bought off FB I don't have that option

So now my options are, to stick with the 1140, to try to sell on eBay for what I paid plus trade in my 6500 to get an open box a1h or sell to stick with 6500 (which would probably still leave me with an itch to upgrade)

That itch to upgrade implies I'm chasing an improvement even if it's not necessarily going to be audible. The a1h could hopefully be an end game avr

Yeah, products from smaller companies tend to have a lot more bugs than from much bigger companies like Yamaha and Marantz/Denon.

Seems like your best option is to sell the Anthem and get a product from Denon/Marantz.

 

[dolynick]

I was able to more or less eliminate the delays on my Anthem setups by setting playback software to use exclusive audio mode in the video players. If a WIM is your source, I'm not sure if there are any options like that available though.

Another option is to move music playback to a different input (Optical or Coax) since I don't know why you'd want your TV on all the time anyways when listening. Either will allow you to pass up to 24/192 (although optical requires a cable actually rated for that) which is really all you need unless you're trying to do multi-channel music. You can't pass DSD over coax/optical but the Anthems will only accept that over HDMI from an actual SACD player in my experience (trying to pass it via DoP from a PC has never worked for me).

You didn't mention how you ran it, but ARC may give you better results if you run it a certain way. First, make sure that you position the mic with the small hole facing the mains (it's directional mic and it's easy to miss and block). Second, take five measurements: One at the head position for the main listening position and then move a foot or two diagonal back or forward in four dicrection (think towards the cornes of a box around the MLP). Two of those diabonal moves should be higher and two should be lower (I usually do lower in front, higher in back).

I do recommend using the advanced run for ARC, as you have more options - but mainly just being able to set the room gain and where it starts will be the biggest help.

Sounds like you're going to make a switch anyways, but some suggestions if you want to try some stuff first yet.

 

[lovinthehd]

The whole hardware different for music vs movies thing I think is the thing that doesn't make much sense.....it's the same hardware so it is more likely a difference in the recording if you're hearing differences. I've liked my avrs performance for the most part (Denon, Onkyo, Sony) but if I need a bit more amp then hopefully pre-outs are available for a more significant power amp. I'd not consider using an integrated amp in lieu of a power amp, just a duplicating of hardware IMO. I'd also not look to the biggest amp sections in an avr rather than a modest one with use of power amps....

 

[famasfilms]

I was able to more or less eliminate the delays on my Anthem setups by setting playback software to use exclusive audio mode in the video players. If a WIM is your source, I'm not sure if there are any options like that available though.

Another option is to move music playback to a different input (Optical or Coax) since I don't know why you'd want your TV on all the time anyways when listening. Either will allow you to pass up to 24/192 (although optical requires a cable actually rated for that) which is really all you need unless you're trying to do multi-channel music. You can't pass DSD over coax/optical but the Anthems will only accept that over HDMI from an actual SACD player in my experience (trying to pass it via DoP from a PC has never worked for me).

The biggest audio delay is when starting playback on Plex video content, especially after rewinding or forwarding. It takes 2-3 seconds for audio to kick in.

I don't listen to music with the TV on. Regardless of the source (Roon, Spotify or Tidal) then the first second of any track from a "cold" start is missing. If I skip to the next track in the playlist it's a smooth transition, but stopping the current track and selecting another one will then miss the first second.

I actually do have an Arc Genesis run that I'm comfortable with and haven't felt the need to send to the guy from AVSforum to tweak. It was the fan noise and the other quirks of the Anthem that compelled me to order the A1H earlier tonight.

My plan tomorrow is to listen again to a few more demo scenes on the Anthem, then swap the 6500 back in to see if my memory is over-valuing the performance of the 6500. Maybe I think "oh boy actually the Anthem IS better".

The A1H should arrive Tuesday and then I have 30 days to decide whether to keep it. (Although if the Anthem sells on Ebay then that will make the decision for me)

 

[PENG]

The biggest audio delay is when starting playback on Plex video content, especially after rewinding or forwarding. It takes 2-3 seconds for audio to kick in.

I don't listen to music with the TV on. Regardless of the source (Roon, Spotify or Tidal) then the first second of any track from a "cold" start is missing. If I skip to the next track in the playlist it's a smooth transition, but stopping the current track and selecting another one will then miss the first second.

I actually do have an Arc Genesis run that I'm comfortable with and haven't felt the need to send to the guy from AVSforum to tweak. It was the fan noise and the other quirks of the Anthem that compelled me to order the A1H earlier tonight.

My plan tomorrow is to listen again to a few more demo scenes on the Anthem, then swap the 6500 back in to see if my memory is over-valuing the performance of the 6500. Maybe I think "oh boy actually the Anthem IS better".

The A1H should arrive Tuesday and then I have 30 days to decide whether to keep it. (Although if the Anthem sells on Ebay then that will make the decision for me)

As has been said many times, if you are comparing two AVRs, even if you level match them to within 0.1 dB, and in pure direct mode, you will still hear a difference and form an opinion if you do it sighted. This is found in also many forum talks from people who had done those comparison. Yet, if done in double blind or even single blind, people could not hear such differences. So I think if you really think you can hear a difference then go with the one who felt sounding better, if not then I would say keep the Denon and sell the Anthem. There are many Anthem fans so it should be easy to sell. With ARC G though, as I mentioned before, don't expect flat and smooth bass response, depending on your room/speakers, the best you can achieve is probably within +/- 3 to 5 dB, that's isn't bad at all. With my D&M before, I could achieve +/- 1 to 2 dB, but audibly speaking it is hard to tell a difference. However, with ARC G, if you don't check it with REW, you could be listening to more than +/- 5 dB in the bass range and how good that would sound relative to the 6500 would all depend on your own preference, and we all have different preference/taste. So you may want to also compare in pure direct mode, Anthem does not have that mode, but you can disable ARC G as you must know that already.

As for delays, I believe that's simply due to the design of Anthem AVRs/AVPs. My AVM has delays even when playing the test tones, it varies from less than a second to a couple seconds (between channels) when playing the tones. Coming from Denon/Marantz, I was hard to accept in the beginning, but I got used to it, not really an issue for me anymore.

The A1H will not sound better (okay now I am lowering your expectations, not intentionally...), but if you look at the innards, the block diagrams, and Denon's own measurements, you will see that this thing should beat most if not all so called integrated amps in the same price range. That thing ideally should be used as an AVR, or use a 2/3 channel amps for the LCR and use the remaining amps for the surround and height channels, otherwise may as well buy an AVP and it won't cost you much more.

 

[famasfilms]

As has been said many times, if you are comparing two AVRs, even if you level match them to within 0.1 dB, and in pure direct mode, you will still hear a difference and form an opinion if you do it sighted. This is found in also many forum talks from people who had done those comparison. Yet, it done in double blind or even single blind, people could not hear such differences. So I think if you really think you can hear a difference then go with the one who felt sounding better, if not then I would say keep the Denon and sell the Anthem. There are many Anthem fans so it should be easy to sell.

As for delays, I believe that's simply due to the design of Anthem AVRs/AVPs. My AVM has delays even when playing the test tones, it varies from less than a second to a couple seconds (between channels) when playing the tones. Coming from Denon/Marantz, I was hard to accept in the beginning, but I got used to it, not really an issue for me anymore.

Yeah I've already packed up the Denon for the trade in collection. I woke up and realized I couldn't be bothered with all the rewiring lol

I'm in a 5x3m ground floor apartment, at -35db my phone sound meter app can hit 70-75db in dialogue scenes. The imax dts-x version of Bad Boys is peaking at 90db at that volume. Plus I almost definitely won't be going higher than 7.1.4 due to space (although front wides could work and maybe I just buy a cheap used pair like my surround and back speakers).

With only 7.1.4 on the A1h would there be much advantage to bi amping the fronts?

 

[Kleinst]

The A1H will not sound better (okay now I am lowering your expectations, not intentionally...), but if you look at the innards, the block diagrams, and Denon's own measurements, you will see that this thing should beat most if not all so called integrated amps in the same price range. That thing ideally should be used as an AVR, or use a 2/3 channel amps for the LCR and use the remaining amps for the surround and height channels, otherwise may as well buy an AVP and it won't cost you much more.

This is a good point that it won't sound better. Would this especially be the case if you were simply using the pre outs to an external AMP? Is the processing the same effectively in a 6500, 4300, A1H with the difference being the power of the AMPs which is neutralized if using an external AMP or if running fairly efficient speakers? Faced the same consideration recently when comparing a 4300 vs a Marantz 8015. Wasn't sure there would be much improvement in practicality other than pride of ownership which amounts for something.

If nothing else, the A1H kind of will represent a end point for upgrading AVRs at least in the Denon realm so it might just stop the itch. But in reality, between your 6500 and the A1H, it's probably really a function of how well you hit on the room correction/levels/etc. that can shape your impressions vs what the AVRs are capable of right?

 

[PENG]

This is a good point that it won't sound better. Would this especially be the case if you were simply using the pre outs to an external AMP? Is the processing the same effectively in a 6500, 4300, A1H with the difference being the power of the AMPs which is neutralized if using an external AMP or if running fairly efficient speakers? Faced the same consideration recently when comparing a 4300 vs a Marantz 8015. Wasn't sure there would be much improvement in practicality other than pride of ownership which amounts for something.

If nothing else, the A1H kind of will represent a end point for upgrading AVRs at least in the Denon realm so it might just stop the itch. But in reality, between your 6500 and the A1H, it's probably really a function of how well you hit on the room correction/levels/etc. that can shape your impressions vs what the AVRs are capable of right?

As you probably know I believe in specs and measurements only, not forum reports on perceived sound quality that is subjective and dependent on personal taste/preference. Based on specs and measurements, the strength of the A1H, relative to others, would indeed be the preamp processor section as it has the same ICs used in the Marantz AV10. So, I agree with you, logically speaking if you use external power amp for all channels then the A1H should sound pretty much exactly the same as the very well reviewed AV10, and any differences would be, also as you alluded to "probably really a function of how well you hit on the room correction/levels/etc"

Any claims of the otherwise would be due to a) if the AV10 has the default slow roll off filter selected, but even then, it would only make a theoretical difference if digital inputs are used to playback contents with sampling rated higher than say 48 kHz, because at higher rate, the effects of the slow roll off filter will be next to nothing (a fact...), based on the well known Nyquist theorem (Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem - Wikipedia ).

and/or b) bias/Placebo effects in sighted comparison listening sessions.

 

[PENG]

Yeah I've already packed up the Denon for the trade in collection. I woke up and realized I couldn't be bothered with all the rewiring lol

I'm in a 5x3m ground floor apartment, at -35db my phone sound meter app can hit 70-75db in dialogue scenes. The imax dts-x version of Bad Boys is peaking at 90db at that volume. Plus I almost definitely won't be going higher than 7.1.4 due to space (although front wides could work and maybe I just buy a cheap used pair like my surround and back speakers).

With only 7.1.4 on the A1h would there be much advantage to bi amping the fronts?

That's a tough question because the answer would likely be, it depends...

 

[gene]

There is no debate about this. The Denon A1H is currently the best AVR on the market in every measurable category. I love Anthem but the amp section of the 1140 is NO match for the A1H. The only way you can better the performance of the A1H is to go separates. Personally, I prefer Audyssey PC w separate mic calibration kit over what I've been experiencing with Dirac. Anthem ARC is really good for ease of use and out of box good calibration with little fuss but it's not as powerful or configurable as Dirac of Audyssey.