Another Speaker Advice Thread

[Takalah]

I am looking to get a home theater system. I purchased the Onkyo 709 on sale at Newegg this past weeked.

The speakers are a different story, I have been trying to read as many reviews as possible but I am just confused by all of the information out there. They will be going into a 17x19 living room open to a 7x14 kitchen on one side, windows all along the opposite wall and opening to a hallway in the corner with 10 or 11 foot ceilings so it is a large sized room. I will be getting a sub but that is another discussion after I decide on the speakers. The split will be about 45/45/10 for movies/music/gaming. I will add surrounds later once the speakers and sub are setup.

I would prefer towers and am considering the following speakers around my budget of ~1200 for the LCR setup. The problem is that I can't demo any of these speakers in store. I went to the Best Buy Magnolia and listened to a few of the speakers they had setup there. My impressions are below:

I really did not like the Klipsch sound it honestly gave me a headache very quickly.

I really did like the martin logan speakers they had, pretty much the whole line sounded good to me starting from the motion 10 all the way to the vantage electrostats which were probably the best speakers I have heard so far but way out of my budget. I thought the motion 10s were a bit bright but the sales guy said they had just been setup and had not been broken in fully yet.

The energy cf-50 were ok but really did not sound as good as some of the other stuff there.

All of the definitive technology speakers they had were the ones with integrated subs and I am not really interested in those. Plus they sounded very bass heavy to me, maybe because they were the only ones I listened to with subs built in. The other speakers I tried to listen to with their matching subs on and off to get a better feel for the speaker itself.

I wasn't a huge fan of the polk monitor line.

The vienna acoustic speakers all sounded ok but I preferred the sound of the martin logans by far.

Sorry for the very long post but I am considering the speakers below any recommendations?

- SVS STS-02 towers + SCS-02 center (backordered right now)
- EMP Tek E55Ti Towers + E5Ci Center
- Ascend CMT 340-SE mains + CMT-340 SE center or maybe the Sierra 1's across the front if they are much better, but honestly I prefer towers
- Arx A3 towers and Arx A2 center
- Swan Diva 4.2 towers with matching center

A bit over budget for these next few, but I will do it if the sound if that much better
- Aperion Verus Forte Towers + Center
- NHT Absolute Classic Tower + Absolute Center
- Paradigm Monitor 7 Towers + CC-290 Center
- Axiom Audio M60 Towers + VP150 Center

- Or suggest something completely different

 

[GranteedEV]

If you like the "electrostat sound", then maybe you should consider a pair of the internet direct Magnepan MMGs + MMG Center. Keep in mind that when dealing with electrostats, the dispersion pattern is very unusual. Some parts of the room do not get the same sound as other parts of the room. So audition while walking around the room to find out if you can live with em.

The big advantage of the Aperion speakers (5T or Verus Forte) is that the center channel is more optimal, unlike most of the other brands who go with M-T-M centers, and there's always a focus on a balanced power response from that brand. So yes, I would suggest leaning towards the Aperions, or getting the EMPs but skipping the center channel.

I'd scratch the Axioms right off the list. the Paradigms ain't that great either IMHO.

 

[Takalah]

If you like the "electrostat sound", then maybe you should consider a pair of the internet direct Magnepan MMGs + MMG Center. Keep in mind that when dealing with electrostats, the dispersion pattern is very unusual. Some parts of the room do not get the same sound as other parts of the room. So audition while walking around the room to find out if you can live with em.

The big advantage of the Aperion speakers (5T or Verus Forte) is that the center channel is more optimal, unlike most of the other brands who go with M-T-M centers, and there's always a focus on a balanced power response from that brand. So yes, I would suggest leaning towards the Aperions, or getting the EMPs but skipping the center channel.

I'd scratch the Axioms right off the list. the Paradigms ain't that great either IMHO.

Why skip the center channel on the EMPs? I was considering ordering both the EMPs and the Aperions and using their free trial to decide which ones to keep of the two since they are both near the top of my list, but I feel bad doing that for some reason.

 

[GranteedEV]

Why skip the center channel on the EMPs?

It's a horizontal MTM.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I'm a Big fan of Ascend's and scratch that Swan off your list quickly...
p.s: +GranteedEV what said about electrostats - they typically have small sweet spot.. good for critical music listening - not so much for else. Like he said - then auditioning them do walk about the room.
I hear nothing but good things about NHT.

I think most PSB's be out of your budget (not sure) but it's worth to take a closer look... Try to find local dealer...
You have pretty big rooms - I'd consider getting sub much sooner as it'll make or break movies/games experience... probably worth skipping center for now

Onkyo 709 can drive even demanding speakers so unless you planning to have 30 people plus parties - you can safely drive most speakers to very loud levels.

my Advice:
Pair of CMT-340 and eD A3-300 Sub or Epic Legend http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/legend.html

 

[MinusTheBear]

I live with comb filtering on a daily basis with my VP150. As it's driver complement is TMMMT this issue is inherent to the design. I can't really recommend it because it is very picky to placement and the off-axis (horizontal and vertical) I find is not very good. In what I mean by that is speech intelligibility suffers in seating positions far off-axis.

On the other hand, I would be confident in Ascends MTM center to produce natural speech with superior off-axis to Axiom.

I don't own the M60's however audioholics latest review found the mids broke up at loud volumes because the midrange drivers lack a high pass section in the crossover.

I'm with Granted on this one. EMP, Aperion or Ascend.

 

[GranteedEV]

On the other hand, I would be confident in Ascends MTM center to produce natural speech with superior off-axis to Axiom.

The Sierra-1 as a center should be fine (though there would still be a crossover lobing between the tweeter and midrange if you place it horizontal), but an MTM will still always be an MTM... the off axis nulls are disgusting. The only way I can imagine an MTM center working is if it is 2.5 way rather than 2-way... i'm skeptical that the ascend is in fact a 2.5 way crossover but I guess it's possible.

 

[Takalah]

The Sierra-1 as a center should be fine (though there would still be a crossover lobing between the tweeter and midrange if you place it horizontal), but an MTM will still always be an MTM... the off axis nulls are disgusting. The only way I can imagine an MTM center working is if it is 2.5 way rather than 2-way... i'm skeptical that the ascend is in fact a 2.5 way crossover but I guess it's possible.

I am a bit confused since everything I have read says that not having a center would cause problems for home theater usage. I plan to get the sub right after I decide on the speakers, I have been looking at the HSU VTF 2 mk 3, epik legend, and ed a2-300. Any other choices in that area.

I found a dealer nearby that has PSB, paradigm and a few others that I plan on visiting in the next few days. I will take listening notes there as well and let you know what I think. I am still leaning towards audtioning the emp and aperion verus forte and deciding based on that.

 

[MinusTheBear]

I am a bit confused since everything I have read says that not having a center would cause problems for home theater usage. I plan to get the sub right after I decide on the speakers, I have been looking at the HSU VTF 2 mk 3, epik legend, and ed a2-300. Any other choices in that area.

I found a dealer nearby that has PSB, paradigm and a few others that I plan on visiting in the next few days. I will take listening notes there as well and let you know what I think. I am still leaning towards audtioning the emp and aperion verus forte and deciding based on that.

You will want a center channel unless you watch movies by yourself sitting in the sweet spot. A phantom center channel will work but you might find the soundstage collapse when you sit off-axis. A dedicated center speaker also gives you the ability to independently adjust the trim on that channel up or down.

You don't always have to use a horizontal design. A matching vertical speaker is ideal, if placement and WAF allows it.

 

[Takalah]

You will want a center channel unless you watch movies by yourself sitting in the sweet spot. A phantom center channel will work but you might find the soundstage collapse when you sit off-axis. A dedicated center speaker also gives you the ability to independently adjust the trim on that channel up or down.

You don't always have to use a horizontal design. A matching vertical speaker is ideal, if placement and WAF allows it.

Placement will not allow the vertical center so it will have to be horizontal.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Placement will not allow the vertical center so it will have to be horizontal.

Why not?

I don't like horizontal centers either.

What is the maximum height for your center?

 

[Takalah]

You will want a center channel unless you watch movies by yourself sitting in the sweet spot. A phantom center channel will work but you might find the soundstage collapse when you sit off-axis. A dedicated center speaker also gives you the ability to independently adjust the trim on that channel up or down.

You don't always have to use a horizontal design. A matching vertical speaker is ideal, if placement and WAF allows it.

Why not?

I don't like horizontal centers either.

What is the maximum height for your center?

12 inches unfortunatly, it needs to go on the stand that I have the TV mounted on.

 

[GranteedEV]

I am a bit confused since everything I have read says that not having a center would cause problems for home theater usage. I plan to get the sub right after I decide on the speakers, I have been looking at the HSU VTF 2 mk 3, epik legend, and ed a2-300. Any other choices in that area.

Not in my opinion.

Actually, I have the e55tis and I find if i'm sitting off (or on) axis, I prefer no center over the e5Ci center. The soundstage definitely doesn't "collapse" and it's a lot easier to hear what's going on (which, last I checked, is why we have speakers )

If you've ever heard of a "boxy" sound, that is what MTM centers sound like on axis. Off axis, they sound all wrong, period. I've noticed it most when I'm watching sports and movies, that i just went and turned that E5Ci right off and no issue. I know that the center image gets "tighter" with that center but it honestly doesn't "sound" better.

Now the aperion centers looks like the "right" kind of center. a pair of woofers flanking a coaxial driver or a tweeter and midrange. The Verus Grand Center actually looks like an aesthetic match to the EMP Tek mains, and i'm actually considering picking one up!..

So maybe audition the EMP Tek mains, Aperion mains, Emp Tek Center and Aperion Center. You might just end up with the combination of Emp Tek mains and Aperion Center

 

[3db]

So maybe audition the EMP Tek mains, Aperion mains, Emp Tek Center and Aperion Center. You might just end up with the combination of Emp Tek mains and Aperion Center

So your trading dispersion over matching timbre?


In my room I can only venture 30 degrees off axes from center but I've not noticed any degredation in sound quality from my center channel. The sound still remains fimrly anchored to the TV.

 

[GranteedEV]

So your trading dispersion over matching timbre?

It's an assumption that "timbre" will or won't match with any two speakers which are not identical(and even if they are identical, room interaction and angle-to-ear can still create a different sound - a speaker straight in front of you will have less high frequency than a speaker which is aiming into your ears). Having the same drivers, designer, or anything else does not guaruntee much... A horizontal MTM has its own "sound" which even on axis is offensive enough to create a brand new timbre - so timbre matching is thrown out the window without excessive subjective voicing, which is never a good idea imo.

Give me a speaker with relatively flat on-axis frequency response and a smooth tapering of hozitonal off-axis response. Such a speaker will blend better with another speaker with relatively flat on-axis frequency response and a smooth tapering of hozitonal off-axis response, even if the drivers, crossover topology, phase response, bass alignment, etc are not perfectly the same. Of course the latter scenario never hurts but yes, I would trade dispersion for many things, because having good dispersion is a big percentage of our perception of "timbre" in the first place.

On that note, I will add one caveat about my setup.

I've got my towers toed in rather aggressively in front of, rather than at, the sweet spot - about 45 degrees. I assume the losses of the nearer speaker being increasingly off-axis and the further speaker getting increasingly on-axis helps really tighten that center image as you shift seating positions, based on something i've read from wayne parham and earl geddes. I don't know if I can truly hear the difference between aggressive toe-in and no toe-in, but hey, the theory is sound so what's the harm, right?

Of course, such toe in probably only works with speakers that don't have any treble peaking on-axis.

 

[lsiberian]

12 inches unfortunatly, it needs to go on the stand that I have the TV mounted on.

Are you a critical music listener or is it background? Do you watch movies at home like you are in the theater or are they typically background to the computer? IMO, If home theater really matters most to you than get the package deal with all the speakers you need. If music really matters and you sit on the couch a couple hours a day listening to music then get the best stereo pair of speakers you can on your budget.

 

[lsiberian]

So your trading dispersion over matching timbre?


In my room I can only venture 30 degrees off axes from center but I've not noticed any degredation in sound quality from my center channel. The sound still remains fimrly anchored to the TV.

I do think a vertical center channel sounds better, but the horizontal works fine for most setups. After all it doesn't take long for the ears to adjust to anything.

 

[Takalah]

I ended up ordering both the EMP e55ti and the aperion verus forte to audition. I am also going to a local dealer tomorrow to listen to the PSB and paradigms. I will let you know what I think of them. Unfortunatly the Verus Forte is backordered until the end of the month and the center is not available until 7/7/11. I was really hoping to A/B them with the EMPs.

 

[Takalah]

I went and listened to a few speakers today.

One room at the dealer the Paradigm Monitor 7, PSB Image T6, and Klipsh RF-82. I really ended up liking the monitor 7 followed by klipsh rf-82 and then the PSB. The PSB just did not sound that clear to me. Another room had the Paradigm Studio 60 and the PSB Imagine T. The Paradigms sounded better again, but it was much closer this time. Finally I listened to the Totem Staff speakers and really liked them, I was surprised by the bass response that these speakers had given the size, but they were a bit warm to me.

 

[lsiberian]

I went and listened to a few speakers today.

One room at the dealer the Paradigm Monitor 7, PSB Image T6, and Klipsh RF-82. I really ended up liking the monitor 7 followed by klipsh rf-82 and then the PSB. The PSB just did not sound that clear to me. Another room had the Paradigm Studio 60 and the PSB Imagine T. The Paradigms sounded better again, but it was much closer this time. Finally I listened to the Totem Staff speakers and really liked them, I was surprised by the bass response that these speakers had given the size, but they were a bit warm to me.

Remember placement, room and seating have a major effect on any speaker. I would suggest you move the speakers around until you dial in their best spots before making a judgement call. You might be amazed at the difference a few inches can make.