Analog (Vinyl) vs Digital Audio (CD, FLAC) Listening Event Comparison

[Alex2507]

I'm relieved its Haraldo that's making you buy this album. Based on that. I would definitely snag it!!!!! You have nothing lose. . BTW, let me know how it turns out. I'm not a huge jazz fan but I think I should dabble in it to broaden my taste in music.

Harold is making me order that other thing, a CD of left whatever that others also said they liked. I'm not a jazz fan either and am only getting the Miles Davis thing because I got floored hearing a live sax being played on the street in Providence.

You can also check out the offerings from Acoustic Sounds. The link that I provided is to the 180g version, but they sell a few others. I don't know about the two-disc limited edition on Amazon. There was a blue vinyl two-disc limited edition from Europe, but that came out in 2010 and shouldn't be the same one being offered for pre-order. You should just get the 50th anniversary box set.

Actually if you expand the 2 disc thing it lists a couple of 2010 releases and that decides it for me. I don't want that. I want exactly what that musician heard at Gene's. Colored vinyl is rumored to be mostly crap. I don't see myself liking the Jazz scene so much that I want to listen to this in Mantown, the fofo and the living room on Blu-ray.

 

[Adam]

I don't see myself liking the Jazz scene so much that I want to listen to this in Mantown, the fofo and the living room on Blu-ray.

No worries - that set comes with a DVD, not blu-ray.

To spare myself tracking down if you ever actually saw it, there was a thread on this album. I posted one YouTube version of the whole album that apparently was removed from that site, and here's one from the 50th anniversary set. Up the video quality to get better audio (the lower resolutions also have low-res audio, I believe). If you've never heard the album, this should give you a sense if you'll like it.

 

[cpp]

You can also check out the offerings from Acoustic Sounds. The link that I provided is to the 180g version, but they sell a few others. I don't know about the two-disc limited edition on Amazon. There was a blue vinyl two-disc limited edition from Europe, but that came out in 2010 and shouldn't be the same one being offered for pre-order. You should just get the 50th anniversary box set.

I picked up the vinyl from Music Direct MILES DAVIS KIND OF BLUE (180G LP) at Music Direct

 

[3db]

I picked up the vinyl from Music Direct MILES DAVIS KIND OF BLUE (180G LP) at Music Direct

How's the recording?

 

[cpp]

How's the recording?

I think since this version of the LP has had some new mastering there is more detail and it appears more dynamics in Cobbs drumming and a lot more soundstage than the older version and very little surface noise. Having Coltrane and Adderley on the same record is pretty cool.

 

[Hobbit]

Irv, Apparently people think I'm a troll. Well, to that I just say I'm trying to learn. You have a similar background to me, and you've obviously applied it to audio. Furthermore, it's clear you have a deep understanding of it. You're not spewing numbers and jargon that are virtually irrelevant, like many I see here. I walk into a "noisy" lab (we have a large environmental test area) daily, work with high end equipment to make precision measurements using some very jury rigged setups. Therefore, I'm not going to apologize if I take some of the comments I read here with a grain of salt. I'm not saying the science/engineering isn't often fundamentally correct, just that it's irrelevant for the task at hand.

There are things that seem obvious to me, just like your last comment on this thread. Yet, while I may be ignorant, I'm not arrogant enough not ask. For instance, like in my last post, is there something in in the CD vs Vinyl I'm missing? Apparently not - but I'll ask! There are other factors besides numbers I haven't seen addressed in this discussion which is really why I personally like digital recordings better (I'm sure there are exceptions). But I don't want to sound like a troll so I won't bring them up.

 

[swspiers]

Crap! @#$@! *&%$! This is the first time, ever, that I have read an article, review, or post that has me looking at my AV rack and sizing it up for a turntable...

 

[haraldo]

I'm getting inspired by this, I do have one of these that's never been employed

Mainly due to the fact that I don't have the correct turntable base, I do have an Ariston RD40 that's floating but this turntable is not able to carry the very heavy Dynavector arm, so maybe I will start looking for a secondhand Rega or something similar

 

[Rich Davis]

Suggestion

I don't know if you are aware, but Alcohol can mess up your hearing so you don't actually hear as well as you would if you weren't under the influence. Don't do serious listening tests high on anything.

 

[Alex2507]

Don't do serious listening tests high on anything.

Are you suggesting that I come down ?!?

I got that 180 gram Miles Davis thing. Absolutely my last Amazon record purchase ever. I had to sand out the little hole. The album had debris on it.

The recording was excellent. KEW taught me to look for an 'edge' on horn instruments to evaluate speakers. I love my speakers even more for having heard that album but the problem is that I still don't like jazz and Albums from Amazon are 0 for 2. I feel that Adam should refund my money.

 

[3db]

I feel that Adam should refund my money.

Let me know how that works out for you.

 

[honestabe316]

Just say Nao! to clones....

Seriously though...I feel some recordings fare better with different formats...I do think of a cd version of a great vinyl recording as I do of clones...look and feel the same...different personalities...just my two cents......

 

[JMJVK]

Amazing to see such an old thread still chugging along...

I think the recording and mastering is just as important as the media. To my subjective judgement, my old "Dark side of the moon" CD sounds better than my SACD, when playing "The great gig in the sky". But, for "Us and them", it's quite the opposite; That SACD crushes the CD. The CD is more noisy, but the instrument to voice levels on it seems to yield a definite advantage to Clare Tory's vocals on the CD, and these vocals, to me, are half the pleasure and beauty of "The great gig in the sky". But, for "Us and them" the accent on the mids with a very low noise level gives a very vivid presence to the saxophone.

For a same album, different engineers may produce better results on different titles, and different auditors might not agree on which is the best, as choice may vary according subjective preferences for certain instruments and/or vocals in a title. I have a preference for certain recordings, more than for the media itself, in general. That said, I really would prefer if everything was available as a stereo or quad channel SACD.

As a foot note; sadly, for certain titles, little choice is available. As an example; Paul Desmond's "Take five", originally recorded with "The Dave Brubeck quartet". I love this piece, and with taking anything away from the original Dave Brubeck quartet, I think the quartet formed by Dave Brubeck, Bobby Militello, Michael Moore and Randy Jones recorded what I call the best ever interpretation of "Take five" in a live concert in July 2004, at the Festspielhaus Baden-Baden, in Germany. (Heck of a nice venue for a concert...)


Well, try as I might, I can't find a CD or SACD of it, so I'm condemned to a 4:3 DVD's PCM track.

 

[gene]

We just uploaded a Youtube Debate on this topic to support the article. I hope you enjoy.

[video=youtube_share;hh-23EUP-s8]http://youtu.be/hh-23EUP-s8[/video]

 

[Ponzio]

We just uploaded a Youtube Debate on this topic to support the article. I hope you enjoy.

[video=youtube_share;hh-23EUP-s8]http://youtu.be/hh-23EUP-s8[/video]

I think Gene stated the crux of this argument in the first minute … for me … where I think he subconsciously stated his true belief; to quote, “it’s funny that 30, 40 years later were still having this debate”. It is hilarious Gene. I know I was laughing. Imagine people in the early 20th century, after 30 to 40 years, going back to a horse after using a car. No one was more peeved … nice word for pissed … with the introduction of cd’s more than me, after a lifetime of collecting records … some 2,000 at last count … and having to replace them but a deaf man could hear the difference and I surrendered. I understand the advantages of an LP; the enlarged graphics/fonts of the cover and the pleasing tactile feel that it gives, the immersive and interactive experience and the human ears preference for analog warmth. But what sealed the deal for me to switch over was the cd’s lack of master tape/vinyl analog hum and the inevitable cracks/pops that came along with records sooner or later from ham handed friends with palsy who would swap out an album when I was out of the room. Yes I understand that my top of the line Panasonic/Dual/Onkyo turntables with Audio Technica/Shure cartridges were not the best in audiophile grade equipment/components but they weren’t chop liver either. Hey, to each his own. That’s why Baskin-Robbins offers 31 flavors, right?

Ironically I still have all my albums and to date have resisted all offers to sell them, mostly for sentimental reasons, and I might play 3 albums a year at most, usually an artist/title that was never converted over to cd’s, but I highly recommend you check out the obits for my passing and offer my wife/children a buck an LP. Three quarters of them are in pristine condition because of my obsession, as a young man, to protect the integrity of the record by making a copy of it onto a cassette, as soon as I bought an album.

What a long, strange trip it’s been.

 

[audioworkshop]

So which way is it?

OK I'm confused...you guys flatly stated in you analysis of cables that its all hooey ....scientific measurements can show us that there is no difference in the sound in most cables if you cannot measure it. Now were told that even though CD's measure better that "On paper, digital audio is superior. However, if I've learned anything over the years of running this website is there is often quite a difference between theory and reality" You guys come off a little smug when doing your evaluations, that somehow because we have credentials that determines our place in the audiophile hierarchy? Then you come right out and say after years of blah blah there is a difference between theory and reality..........reality? so which way is it? were talking music here.....and musicians? really? I have been in this business since 1959 and if I have learned one thing is that on whole musicians are the worse people when it comes to evaluating music systems. Not only do you have to overcome the "I'm a musician" BS but most of them in pop music are hearing impaired, even if they don't know it. Here is a point in evaluating anything that involves human nature, such as music, there is no perfect, or right way, even attempts to quantify listening panels are fraught with subjective influence [ I noticed the beer getting passed around....did you make note of that?] OK so I'm being a little over the top here in my evaluation of your evaluation so............got a extra beer and some dip left over?.........can I bring my collection of vinyl with me?
Mario DeSario
Audio Workshop
Bradenton Fl

 

[rojo]

Whoa, Mario, easy! It's a complicated subject. That's a hell of a first post there.

CD is indeed superior for signal / noise ratio, and it has a plenty high sample and bit rate for practical listening volumes. Furthermore, the best features of CD when CD first came to be were portability and mobility. They beat the tar out of cassettes for sound quality, not to mention the convenience of instant access to the track you wanted without having to seek for it. Not that cassettes were ever considered better-sounding than vinyl, but no sane person would put a turntable in a car, after all.

The success of the CD format was also its Achilles heel. Because high quality audio became prevalent on the road, overcoming road noise became a factor in album mastering. Thus, the loudness wars began. (further explanation)

With that in mind, it can be said that the content of vinyl is better than the content of CDs because vinyl largely escaped the loudness wars. Most records were mastered with all the dynamics and subtleties that the artists intended. And therefore, in that respect, vinyl sounds better than CD.

But all this is generalization. Some CDs are mastered without being driven into clipping. And some LPs have been remastered for loudness. If you have to choose which sounds better between CD and records, no matter what you choose, you'll be wrong. But if you have a beer while you choose, you'll be right. Because everything sounds better with a beer.

 

[gene]

OK I'm confused...you guys flatly stated in you analysis of cables that its all hooey ....scientific measurements can show us that there is no difference in the sound in most cables if you cannot measure it. Now were told that even though CD's measure better that "On paper, digital audio is superior. However, if I've learned anything over the years of running this website is there is often quite a difference between theory and reality" You guys come off a little smug when doing your evaluations, that somehow because we have credentials that determines our place in the audiophile hierarchy? Then you come right out and say after years of blah blah there is a difference between theory and reality..........reality? so which way is it? were talking music here.....and musicians? really? I have been in this business since 1959 and if I have learned one thing is that on whole musicians are the worse people when it comes to evaluating music systems. Not only do you have to overcome the "I'm a musician" BS but most of them in pop music are hearing impaired, even if they don't know it. Here is a point in evaluating anything that involves human nature, such as music, there is no perfect, or right way, even attempts to quantify listening panels are fraught with subjective influence [ I noticed the beer getting passed around....did you make note of that?] OK so I'm being a little over the top here in my evaluation of your evaluation so............got a extra beer and some dip left over?.........can I bring my collection of vinyl with me?
Mario DeSario
Audio Workshop
Bradenton Fl

Watch the video again. Just b/c the CD format is technically superior to Vinyl doesn't mean that the media is being used to its full potential to take advantage of its superiority. Just b/c we can measure something (small differences in cables) doesn't mean we can declare audibility either. So there you go.

 

[ImcLoud]

That is obviously a member with a new name, lol Not a first post, first mask is more like it...

Anyway..

IMO {I know you guys are hungry for it}, buy what you like {and what I say sounds good}, if you like vinyl, then stock up, put a table in your car and one on top of your component rack and be happy. I myself love it all, I can enjoy a youtube video through my vaio's speaker, l have record players, cd players, and ipod/ipads... I honestly can not tell the difference in SQ between any of the digital stuff, ipad and cd to me are identical... Vinyl I hear the mechanics and the noises inherent to the equipment, I have listened to some serious high dollar tables on brand new vinyl used vinyl "treated" vinyl, ect the mechanical noises are there, is that a bad thing? I don't know, sometimes I may want to hear that, sometimes I may not.. I have a tube amp with a table and I like firing it up, even though it is before my time I just like the glowing tubes and spinning album in front of me...

But I also spent almost $15K on a 1940's juke box that sounds TERRIBLE, but me and my wife will on occasion throw a nickel in it and dance for our 5 songs that you couldn't find on cd if your life depended on it, its a 75 year old 15" full range speaker, tube amp, with a new old stock cartridge, lol... I even use old nickels, dimes, and quarters in it... Now could that nostalgia be had with a cd player? maybe in 50 years when music is downloaded into your anterior lobe {I know it would have to be downloaded to the spiral sheet of your inner ear and then to your auditory cortex but anterior lobe sounds so much better} then for nostalgia we will throw on a cd or mp3 player and vinyl will be forgotten like them other things that used to play music before albums {}

So its not worth arguing about, if you like it, and you are spending your money, who the FK cares what anyone else thinks, build what you want, sit in your chair {that I hope you also picked out} and enjoy it, play old music, new music, rock, jazz, blues, classical, country, rap, heck you can even play some christian rock if that is what you are into, just like you wouldn't care what someone elses music preferences were you shouldn't care what the media they prefer is... If I had the money I would pay the bands to come and play for me in person, but I don't so I go by what is easiest, and I can tell you first hand, a 1x4x.1/4" ipod with 40,000 songs on it is pretty convenient...

 

[Cask05]

This is incomplete without more information on the digital discs used...

You need to report the exact CD used, by CD/bar code number, the issuing company, and by year of issue, because it matters:

dr.loudness-war.info

Also, the big pop record companies typically put more dynamic recordings out on vinyl than on CDs: and CDs have at least 30 dB more dynamic range than vinyl does. The reasons why they do this isn't very nice, IMHO, but they are doing it:

community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/143320-loudness-war-and-the-dynamic-range-dr-database-some-observations/page-2

Regards,

Chris
(BTW: your forum default for 6 posts minimum in order to post links caused the incomplete URLs above--I can't do much about that policy.)
This information in the DR Database statistics is also found as a wiki on diyaudio.com/wiki/Loudness_War_Dynamic_Range_Compression_and_The_DR_Database_-_Observations