Analog tape reel to reel stuff

3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
How accurate was that medium? Did it require any kind of re-equailization process to record to that medium? Was it just the bulk and the difficulty working with that medium that put it away to rest. I remember reading Stereophile in that and other mags the late 70s early 80s that really thought of all the media at that time, it was state of the art.
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
My father in law still has a pro TEAC reel to reel, what a dinosaur.
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
He rarely uses it, as some of the tapes have deteriorated over time, he bought this machine back in the late 70's for his restaurant. I've heard it a couple of times, it sounds OK not as clear as a CD, but much better than a cassette player, he still tweaks the heads and the bias, It's good from a nostalgia point of view, but it's not convenient, the tape has to be stored under the correct environment or the oxide coating flakes off, its just too much of a hassle.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
How accurate was that medium? Did it require any kind of re-equailization process to record to that medium? Was it just the bulk and the difficulty working with that medium that put it away to rest. I remember reading Stereophile in that and other mags the late 70s early 80s that really thought of all the media at that time, it was state of the art.
That medium was and is very accurate. Here are the reel to reel recorders that I used professionally for many years, to produce LPs and above all do the outside broadcast work of concerts for the local public radio station.

Here is my 1974 Revox A 700 which was my workhorse.

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/2424008#127077469

Here are two other recorders. The silver colored machine at the top is a bespoke Brenell 610 and is the very rare version with a parabolic head path. This was beloved by many BBC engineers. They are now very rare.

Here is a look at 3 Revox A 77s The one below the Brenell is an early Mk 1. It did a total restoration from a complete wreck purchased on eBay. It is a two track high speed, and identical to the machines used to make the early Beatles's albums at Abbey Road. The machine on the right above the turntable case is a Mk 4, and is a four track. It was bought on eBay, basically in very good condition with little use, however it was not working due to two serious faults. The machine on the left above the the turntable case is a Mk 2 two track high speed. It is another complete restoration from a wreck bought on eBay.

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/2424008#127077366

In terms of quality, are they any good? The half tracks running at 15 ips especially with professional noise reduction, exceed CD spec. and are comparable to SACD.

So what are the problems.

First cost. A 10 1/2 inch reel of master tape loaded on a two track machine running at 15 ips gives you 30 minutes of program. The cost is about $1 a minute. Tapes for these machines are no longer in production. Although ATR say they will add tapes for machines like this to their line.

To get the results I speak of you have to record your own tapes, like I did, or buy expensive and scarce real time copies. Commercial high speed copies considerably reduce fidelity due to HF tape saturation issues.

Now in terms of stereo tapes, the earliest in the early 50s were staggered head two tracks. There was a time delay between left and right tracks because of the head spacing. The trouble was there was no agreed head spacing standard! So you had to play tapes on a certain machine, that had the right head spacing. I have a few of these tapes in my collection and can resynchronize the tracks in WaveLab. By the late fifties the stacked stereo heads were around. Harry Belock under the Everest label produced some outstanding stereo two tacks. These were real time copies. I have a few of these in my collection. The fidelity is unbelievable, even by current standards. In terms of fidelity these early two tracks are about the best of the commercial reel to reel tapes.

In 1959 RCA invented the stacked four track head. This divided the tape so that tracks 1 and 3 were left and right side one and track 2 and 4 were left and right side two. The quality was never as good as the two tracks, but the playing time was doubled. The Dolby B four tracks however give the two tracks a run for their money. I own quite a few of these. Barclay Crocker even issued some with dbx II noise reduction, and I have few of these also. Recording speeds of these prerecorded tapes was usually 7.5 ips. There were some 3.75 ips, but these are poor quality.

In terms of quality the good half tracks are the equal of the LP. The four tracks without noise reduction are below good LP standard. The Dolby and dbx II tapes are comparable to the LP. I think they were all superior to prerecorded compact cassettes.

The other problem was that reel to reel machines require a lot of maintenance to keep them in optimal performance. This requires investment in laboratory alignment tapes, and significant test equipment.

As far as equalization, you did need a curve. It boosts the highs on record and the reverse on playback. This was to optimize signal to noise ratio. The curve was different for different speeds. In the US the curves were to NAB standard. In Europe CCIR and then IEEC DIN.

In the professional world reel to reel still lives on. Michael Spitz, founder and CEO of ATR services, does wonderful restoration and rebuilds of mainly Ampex machines, and some Studers, all with updated electronics. He sells to studios all over the world and has a large list of clients. His web site is fascinating, if you are curious. He is now manufacturing the finest magnetic tape that ever saw the light of day.

http://www.atrservice.com/

If any one needs any more of this info, that likely will not be of interest to many on these forums, just ask.
 
Thaedium

Thaedium

Audioholic
Wow... TLS Guy, you are a dinosaur with vast knowledge :p and I mean that in the kindest way possible. I'm assuming that first link leads us to photos of your home setup? Thats unbelievable.

I think you've gone several steps ahead of the average audiophile, for not only do you have a love of clear music, you also collect and maintain what I would consider vintage equipment for more then just looks.


I wonder how many other mediums that are great have gone and disappeared. I used to have an old Victrola my father had for ever, and man was that fun. When I was a kid, I'd throw on record after record, winding it up each time. Ella Fitzgerald is still my fav.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Addendum from the dinosaur

Thank you for your post.

Apart from the brief hey day of the direct to disc LP, the only other quality medium I'm aware of is optical recording back in the fifties.

Robert Fine made a lot of three channel recordings for Mercury Living Presence.

He used one omni directional Telefunken condenser microphone per channel. Some of these recordings were made on a three channel optical system, some on three track Ampex machines.

Robert Fine's elderly widow, Wilma Cozart Fine has lovingly restored these recordings and remastered them to SACD. She still has an original Ampex machine in her possesion, but had a bespoke machine built in Japan for the re mastering.

They sound fantastic!

http://www.deccaclassics.com/music/mercurylivingpresence/about.html
 
Phil Taylor

Phil Taylor

Senior Audioholic
I used to have a Teac Tascam half-track master deck back in the '70s and I would record my LPs to it and they sounded better on playback than they did from the albums themselves. Maybe it was because I could really crank my system (Marantz 2270 / Bose 601s) and get no acoustic feedback or coloration thru the cartridge. The first night I had it the neighbors called the cops :eek: And it was cool watching the VU meters during playback too... ;)
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
Thank you for your post.

Apart from the brief hey day of the direct to disc LP, the only other quality medium I'm aware of is optical recording back in the fifties.

Robert Fine made a lot of three channel recordings for Mercury Living Presence.

He used one omni directional Telefunken condenser microphone per channel. Some of these recordings were made on a three channel optical system, some on three track Ampex machines.

Robert Fine's elderly widow, Wilma Cozart Fine has lovingly restored these recordings and remastered them to SACD. She still has an original Ampex machine in her possesion, but had a bespoke machine built in Japan for the re mastering.

They sound fantastic!

http://www.deccaclassics.com/music/mercurylivingpresence/about.html

I think directo disc recording finally went away both because of the difficulty and the fact that a good recording to tape was really just as good. It left a lot of flexibility for post process, making it and easier medium.

Anytime technologies or activities aimed at "purists" enters the market, they have an uphill road to follow. Having said that, I sure enjoy the few D to D recordings in my collection.
 
davidtwotrees

davidtwotrees

Audioholic General
The Well Done Thing

It always warms my heart when I hear about people doing things because they are passionate and because they care about things done well. I have a couple of the three channel sacd's......not sure if they are the Mercury ones being discussed here, but that is where I first learned that Stereo was not the first choice and that three channels were found to be superior.
Thanks all for the wonderful history.
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
It always warms my heart when I hear about people doing things because they are passionate and because they care about things done well. I have a couple of the three channel sacd's......not sure if they are the Mercury ones being discussed here, but that is where I first learned that Stereo was not the first choice and that three channels were found to be superior.
Thanks all for the wonderful history.
Way back in the day Paul Klipsch was set on using 3 channels,my very first Mcintosh preamp was a 3 channel model,multi channel stereo is the only way i run my man rig,the dynamics are outta sight once you get it all dialed in .
 
1

100r1

Junior Audioholic
I still have a Technics 1520 1/2 track use 10-1/2" reels set at 30ips for best playback.

here is a good set of pictures of it http://cgi.ebay.com/TECHNICS-2-TRACK-1520-STEREO-REEL-TO-REEL_W0QQitemZ130177311033QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item130177311033

Although I have the side panels and not rack mounted. Back around 1980 I paid about $ 1,200.00 US for it and it was cutting edge recording quality for musicians looking to set up a small recording studio for personal use.

I used it back then to do recordings of practice sessions and a few live concerts, Then started to copy original master vinyl LP's to preserve the vinyl for future.

Used it until I started collecting CD's Now it's collecting dust, Pull it out every once in a while to listen to the old day recordings.

It was really good quality in the day, then I remember getting a Digital VHS recorder and reading the specifications on the VHS and comparing it to the 1520. I could not believe that a VHS could sound better but I was wrong. Thats when I realized that times were changing.
 
skizzerflake

skizzerflake

Audioholic Field Marshall
How accurate was that medium? Did it require any kind of re-equailization process to record to that medium? Was it just the bulk and the difficulty working with that medium that put it away to rest. I remember reading Stereophile in that and other mags the late 70s early 80s that really thought of all the media at that time, it was state of the art.
I had a reel-to-reel recorder (Sony) back in the 70's and it was an excellent unit. With an outboard Dolby NR unit, I was making clear, high quality copies of LPs that were pretty much indistinguishable from the original. The only problem with them was the cost of tape and the difficulty of locating tracks. Fast forward and rewind was not very accurate so you located tracks partly by search-and-listen. As with vinyl, cds and MP3's today, RTR disappeared when Dolby Cassettes became widely available and cheap. Their quality was fairly poor but they were smaller, cheaper and easier to handle.
 
Geno

Geno

Senior Audioholic
I had a TEAC reel-to-reel from the mid-60s through the 70s. It was the coolest thing ever. The recordings I made at 15 ips, and even 7.5 ips were, IMHO better than LPs. As the OP has said, there was a lot of maintenance and calibration involved in these things, but I loved it. I, too bought quite a few Direct to Disc LPs (still have 'em).
That said, it's hard to listen to some of that old stuff once you've heard a good multi-channel DVD-A of SACD on a decent set of speakers. I like fooling with my vintage stuff, but time marches on...:rolleyes:
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
From what I've read, I conclude that in its day, analog (reel to reel) was every bit (excuse the pun) as accurate as digital is now even with the higher bit rates offered by SACD and DVDA. I guess when they sent nam to the moon, it was done all analog so why not with audio
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
How accurate was that medium? Did it require any kind of re-equailization process to record to that medium? Was it just the bulk and the difficulty working with that medium that put it away to rest. I remember reading Stereophile in that and other mags the late 70s early 80s that really thought of all the media at that time, it was state of the art.
One of my sons has given me a blog for Christmas. I have been getting the hang of it. Last year he gave me a web site, which I have used to experiment with downloading CDs via the Internet, and experiment with streaming and downloading files in various codecs.

This is a link to my blog from which you can Download a CD. There are no copyright issues involved. I made the recordings for radio broadcast May 12, 1984. The tape machines were a bespoke Brenell Mk 610 and a Revox A 700 which are pictured. No dynamic range compression was used. The CD is totally faithful to the master tapes. This download will show what these machines are capable of. I think you will be surprised.

Here is the link: -

http://www.drmarksays.com/

Yes, that's me on my 1948 Model A John Deere, clearing snow with the Farm Hand loader and 8ft snow bucket.
 
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