Analog and Digital Audio

Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
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Dan Banquer : After reading through most of the posts on this thread I would like to ask all of you a question.
Do any of you think that we now have equipment that is capable of reproducing the information on recorded on a CD?
  d.b.
OK, Dan, I'll bite. Short answer: Qualified yes for electronics, no for speakers.

The best speakers can produce all audible frequencies and then some, but not without audible nonlinearities.

As for my qualified &quot;yes&quot; on electronics, I grant that the DAC is a weak point, albeit inaudible. If the signal was digital all the way to the speaker output, I'd say yes without qualification. Yeah, I know that presupposes a digital amp with the same low distortion as the best conventional amps. Picky, picky, picky!

Aside: Dan, have you heard/read anything about this B&amp;O &quot;ICE&quot; digital amp module? I coudn't understand the &quot;white paper&quot; about it.</font>
 
D

Dan Banquer

Full Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Well Rip: you're partially correct. The lack of linearity in most speakers is a real problem. The electronics are a differtent story. Here the problem is noise.
There are three categories here, thermal noise, ground loop noise, and out of band noise. Thermal noise, is still way to high in the great bulk of electronics, I am personally convinced that power amps will need a SNR of better than -100db (referenced to one watt). Since most of use unbalanced conections,  ground loop noise is another major contributor.(GDS and I might post more on this subject) The easiest noise to get rid of is the out of band noise because a lot of that can be removed with a Tripplite Isobar.
One other observation that might surprise you. Poor stereo separation also indicates poor noise immunity.
All for now;
     d.b.</font>
 
A. Vivaldi

A. Vivaldi

Audioholic
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Dan Banquer : After reading through most of the posts on this thread I would like to ask all of you a question.
Do any of you think that we now have equipment that is capable of reproducing the information on recorded on a CD?
  d.b.
I'm curious to know what Sony's all purist SACD system using the i-link and digital amplification would be capable of for CD. If this equipment couldn't reproduce all the info for a CD I wouldn't know what could. Anybody hear a set up like this?</font>
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
<font color='#8D38C9'>I think speakers are the weakest link, although IMOHO, DVD-A (and to a lesser degree, SACD) demonstrates there's still room to make a better source, too. &nbsp;Still, speakers vary the most in sound of any component and exhibit more colorations of the sound.

I believe there may be performance parameters that we haven't learned to measure yet that may one day explain things we attribute to the overactive imagination of the listener. &nbsp;Yet in the ends, I don't think it's a mystery- all of the sound we hear can be quantified by frequence, amplitude and phase. &nbsp;Maybe sound is complex, but it's governed rigidly by the laws of nature. &nbsp;Gradually the gear gets better and better, and one day we may be able to exactly reproduce the sound of live music.

Probably not though!
</font>
 
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jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
<font color='#000000'>This brings up another question, What and when is the next new speaker technology? I don't mean some improved woofer, tweeter or planar design, I mean something completely new and different then what we think of as a speaker at this moment in time. I have not heard of anything new on the horizon, have any of you?</font>
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
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jeffsg4mac : This brings up another question, What and when is the next new speaker technology? I don't mean some improved woofer, tweeter or planar design, I mean something completely new and different then what we think of as a speaker at this moment in time. I have not heard of anything new on the horizon, have any of you?
Might not have an application to high-end audio*, but check this out. Some truly sci-fi shznit.

Talk about your narrow sweet spot!

------

*Or then again, it might! Check out this page on the inventor's site &amp; scroll down a bit to see the article on the right side. The potential of completely removing room interaction is pretty cool.</font>
 
jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
<font color='#000000'>Interesting stuff Rip, but not quite ready for prime time yet. Do you think we will ever see the end of the loudspeaker as we know it, in our lifetime? Thoughts anyone? Or like modern ammunition and bullet design we have reached the point where without some radical change in technology there is just not to much room for improvement.</font>
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
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jeffsg4mac : <font color='#000000'>Interesting stuff Rip, but not quite ready for prime time yet. Do you think we will ever see the end of the loudspeaker as we know it, in our lifetime? Thoughts anyone? Or like modern ammunition and bullet design we have reached the point where without some radical change in technology there is just not to much room for improvement.</font>
<font color='#000000'>True, we're a long way from ultrasonic speakers being in our listening rooms. And the good old dynamic driver looks like it will be around for awhile. ESL's, ribbons, and other planars have their own tradeoffs so they won't be replacing the cone.

I did read an interesting, passing reference in TAC about a rigid or semi-rigid planar speaker under development in (I think) the UK by a large company with, as the writer said, &quot;serious&quot; technical and financial resources as opposed to a basement or garage outfit. He thought it interesting and possibly promising in the future but even the company wasn't looking at it for home audio at the time. He did say he heard a demo of a car audio prototype, where it actually formed parts of the dashboard panel and apparently sounded pretty good.

I can dig the mag out and find the name of the company tomorrow. It's beddy bye time now!</font>
 
S

slowhand58

Audiophyte
<font color='#000000'>Well everyone, after reading the first few posts of this topic I was ready to go searching for decent reel-to-reel and copy all my gutless digital cds onto tape. &nbsp;Then the digital cavalry came over the hill and I feel I can keep my cds for a little longer - or should I spend a fortune upgrading to sacd? &nbsp;

Then I read that &quot;live&quot; is best of all - so if you don't mind I'm off down the pub to listen to some contemporary jazz over a few beers - best thing of all the more I drink the better it sounds!</font>
 
B

bunkie

Audiophyte
I have a few comments. First, the mechanisms used to record/reproduce music all have tradeoffs. The CD brought with it incredible dynamic range and freedom from noise, yet suffers from issues with respect to soundstage and "sweetness" on the top end compared to a good LP. The new digital formats are promising in that they address the shortcomings of the CD.

Second, it is certainly true that digital recording techniques are rapidly pushing out analog. But it's telling to check the used-market value of a Studer master recorder these days. There's a cottage industry rebuilding these machines as they are favorites of a number of influential artists.

Third, I agree that at present, the cone speaker will probably remain the dominant reproducer technology for some time to come. I remember meeting I.M. Fried at a CES show in 1979 and he told me that he was focusing on improving the dynamic range of his designs in anticipation of digital formats. In this respect, no other technology can compete with a conventional speaker. It simply moves more air than anything else. Having said that, there are serious tradeoffs, to be sure. The biggest one is the fact that a full-range cone speaker doesn't really exist. We are forced to use crossovers and multiple drivers to get decent output at all frequencies. However, there have been amazing advances in manufacturing techniques, materials, measurement and design that have improved the cone speaker considerably over the last few years.

Finally, it's true that some home reel-to-reel recorders weren't all that great. But the real problem was that pre-recorded RTR tapes weren't that good. Most home RTRs were used to copy LPs, and for this they were quite good. But if you spent a bit more, some home RTRs *did* rival studio equipment. The Revox A77 comes to mind, a machine that shared more than a few components with the Studer professional model. You could even get it with 1/2 track heads. I've gotten some really fine-sounding live recordings out of an A77 using little more than two microphones and an external custom-built two-channel mixer.
 
A

av_phile

Senior Audioholic
I have always believed that the open reel format is superior to any form of recording on any media, provided, ofcourse, you have all the right settings and the proper recordings on the right tape to play with. Live performances were captured on these machines and continue to remain in the studio libraries as sources for subsequent mixdowns and transcirptions into whatever format, analog or digital. Then came the digital recording, also on open reel machines.

I would tend to agree with some audiophiles that analog has an inherent quality that SHOULD make them superior to digital. And between a turntable and an open reel, if i were to agree that analog were a wee bit superior to digital, it would have to be because of the open reel. Not turntables.

LPs played on turntables do present a lot of compromises that can render its sonics less than what it can deliver. But played on some of the most sophisticated playback equipment that makes no compromises on material and other aspects of playback, audipohile grade and clean LPs can sound gorgeous over CDs.

But the LP analog equipment and the media are fraught with so much imperfections as to render average home playback a real hit and miss affair that can be overcome only by much ceremonious clutter.

Digital recording is not perfect to begin with, but it freed me from the tedium of anolgue maintenance. It's seems to me it's a lot easier to get the best sound possible with even modest gear than with any analogue set-up which require nothing less than the very expensive and exotic set to achieve excellent sonics.

As a consumer, so much turntable choices often left me wondering if I got the right one: direct drive or belt-drive, straight or s-shaped or trangential tone arm, cantilever geometry and construction, gimbal mounted, uni-pivot mounted or bearing mounted, etc. Not so with digital. I mean i really couldn't care less if they use single beam or three beam lasers or blue or red or whatever.

And those jitter bugs often complained of as inherent in most digital gears are nothing compared to the inherent motor/platter rumble noise, preamp RIAA equalization non-linearites, cartridge overhang errors, tangential tracking errors, tracking errors due to incorrectly set tonearm tracking force, anti-skate errors, cartridge-tonearm mismatch errors, vertical tracking errors, cartridge needle resonances, wow & flutter, microphonic modulations, intergroove modulations (like hearing the next loud passage or next grove even before getting to it), inter-channel cross-talk and sonic degration as you go into the inner groove, etc, etc... Not to mention errors borne from the LPs themselves like LP surface noise (compounded by the use of recycled LPs in the mid 70s to conserve petrol) unwanted resonnances in the LP and tracking erros due to LP warpage. It seemed to me on hindsight that getting the best sound out of any turntable is often left to the consumer, the manufacturer does the 1st 50%, the rest depends on how good a tweak goes into. Add to this the fact that in some materials with excessive bass, the recording engineers had to cut back on the intensity of such passages to allow the cutting lathe to make a proper groove. No such limitations with digital. And yes, while i find some of my first CDs seemingly strident and harsh (more the fault of recording engineers), and seemed to lack the airiness I found in LPs, the newer 20-25-bit remixes and reissues, done by seasoned engineers who know how to makes CDs the right way, have come out with really gorgeous digital transciptions.

There was a time in the early 90s when the compulsion to resurrect my LP passion was germinating. As I couldn't find some of my LP titles in CD. I was in fact about to get either an old Technics or Numarch turntables discarded by a studio. Good thing somebody else beat me to them. Now with DVD-A and SACD, it's a sure bet I would never go back to LPs. My upgrade path to these media are quite clear and, depending on which format wins, quite inescapable. I wouldn't claim that digital is superior to analog. But I can sympathize with people who feel the otherway around. I have grown old in this hobby to recognize there are good recordings and well made transciptions on either media as well as bad ones. But in digital, getting good sounds just need not be so ceremoniously tediuous.
 
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D

dontsleep

Enthusiast
jeffsg4mac said:
<font color='#000000'>Also, if I hear that BS about laser disk sounding better than DVD one more time I am going to scream. LD's did not sound better than DVD's. I owned several players and had a huge collection of movies. On a LD's so called analog tracks they were at best only prologic and no better than CD quality in fact there was a redbook stream on some movies.
OK I'm not defending LD but how can you say dvd's sound better than LD tracks that were at best CD quality?Dolby Digital is a lossy compressed format with a bitrate of 384kbps.
16 bit CD is an uncompressed format with a bitrate of 1,411kbps.
The uncompressed bitstream of CD has 367% more information and is not dependant on a lossy compression algorithm that selectively removes informaton.
 
P

pildo

Audiophyte
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U

Unregistered

Guest
Bit rate is not the only issue. One cannot simply say that uncompressed cd audio at 1.4Mbps will sound better than 384kbps just because the bit rate is higher.
 

defender1991

Audiophyte
recreating analog sound from digital

While we all seem divided on the subject- I for one appreciate both digital and analog media. I will never give up my vinyl collection or my CDs.

However, recently I read an article in my local paper that spoke of a device to attach to a system whereby a CD would sound similar to a record. Not that it added hiss and pops, but a seemingly wider range of sound- clearer highs, etc... everything that vinyl fans love. Does anyone know the name of this device? Supposedly it costs $100 and has a 90 day money back guarantee.
 

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