Amps, 5 monos vs 1, 5 channel

fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
I was just curious if there was a big difference between say 5 mono block amplifiers compared to 1, 5 channel amplifier. Specifically, I was looking at the outlaw 7500 and the outlaw 2200. Thanks.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I doubt if there is a difference in SQ.

I like monoblocks.

Bad thing is having the space for them.

Good thing is they are light and don't weigh 100+lbs.:eek:
Monoblocks are very upgradeable. Get only exactly what you need & add more later if you need.

5 x 200wpc monoblocks = $1324

1 x 200wpc/5ch amp = $1600
 
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j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
The difference (in most cases) is each mono has a dedicated power supply that is only providing power to the channel it is amplifying. Each speaker plays something slightly different, so each one presents a different load to its amp channel at a given time. That's great in theory, but with a well designed amp that has enough power for what you are trying to do and you aren't using insanely power hungry speakers and looking for hearing damage levels, there probably won't be a noticeable difference as ADTG said.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Thanks guys, that helps, and yes ADTG I saw that too, which is why I was asking :D

Why pay 1600 when you could pay 1324 and get more flexibility. Good thing I have the space for them.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Note too, that each of them requires a plug and they will potentially draw more current than one 5ch amp, possibly meaning dedicated circuit would be good.

Not ALL amps are that big. Marantz used to have their MA500s and MA6100s that 5 side by side were the same size as a typical 5ch amp, by design. I used to run three MA500s for my front stage. The XPA-3 has quite a bit more power, but takes up 3X the space. No complaints :D
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
ah-ha, valid point. Something I overlooked for sure. Will have to do some double checking at home to see how that would affect things.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
There are a couple of performance difference that can potentially crop up. Whether or not these differences will actually exist depends on the specific designs of the amps in question. Whether or not these differences will be audible is another matter entirely and highly debateable!

The differences are: some multi-channel amps are able to route all of the power available in the power section into each channel dynamically. In other words, suppose the amp is able to produce 200 Watts into each of 5 channels simultaneously. Some multichannel amps are able to route that full 1000 Watts into a single channel on demand, or 500 Watts into two channels simultaneously on demand. In other words, if one or two particular channels call for a sudden, huge spike in dynamic power, some multi-channel amps are able to deliver that by essentially re-routing all of the available power into those one or two channels. Monoblock amps, meanwhile, will always have their rated power for each individual channel - no more, no less.

The second difference is potential cross-talk. With all of the channels in a multichannel amp sharing the same power source, there is the potential for cross-talk between channels to occur. In other words, the signal in, say, the Left Front channel might "bleed" a little bit into the Center or Right Front channel and if you put your ear up against the Center or Right Front speaker, you might hear sound that is only supposed to be coming out of the Left Front speaker (just as an example). Meanwhile, monoblock amps will never have any cross-talk - unless cross-talk occurs inside the processor.

The final difference is noise floor. This is not really a "multichannel vs. mono" design difference. But it is a practical difference that shows up in real world usage more often than not. Since a high power multichannel amp often has a larger power section than a monoblock that is rated to deliver the same power into each channel, you'll often have a higher noise floor with the multichannel amp. Put your ear right up against your speaker's tweeter and you'll often hear a soft hiss when the processor, amp and source are all turned on and connected but nothing is playing. You might just as likely hear a soft hiss with a monoblock amp as well - it really all comes down to the design and quality of the amp. But just in terms of likelihood and what is common in real world usage, you'll find more monoblock amps that produce extremely little or no hiss at all vs. multichannel amps that are rated to deliver the same power into each channel. The multichannel amps almost always produce at least a slight hiss. Some have a fairly substantial hiss.

So me, personally, I detest having a noise floor. I can't stand any level of audible hiss, hum, buzz or other operational noise. When there is meant to be silence in a soundtrack or song, I want to hear silence! I'm not going to the trouble of soundproofing my theater and acoustically treating it just so I can hear an operational hiss, hum, buzz or whir when the recording calls for dead silence! As a result, I tend to favor monoblock amps myself. You'll more often eliminate any noise floor with monoblocks and you'll never run into cross-talk. So long as the monoblocks have all the power you need to hit the dynamic peaks that you require/want, there's no down side to monoblocks - other than needing more receptacles and power cords ;)

And FYI, you might want to also consider the Emotiva UPA-1 monoblock amps. I haven't tested the Outlaw 2200 monoblocks enough to know whether they are any better or worse than the Emotiva UPA-1, so this isn't any sort of "knock" against the Outlaw 2200 amps. I can merely vouch for the UPA-1 amps as being DEAD silent in the noise floor category and capable of very clean output a little above Emotiva's conservative specs. I'm not saying the Outlaw 2200 are necessarily worse or that the Emotiva UPA-1 are definitely a better choice - I honestly don't know since I've not tested the Outlaw 2200 extensively. But yeah, just saying the Emotiva UPS-1 FOR SURE are terrific monoblocks at an affordable price ;)
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
There are a couple of performance difference that can potentially crop up. Whether or not these differences will actually exist depends on the specific designs of the amps in question. Whether or not these differences will be audible is another matter entirely and highly debateable!

The differences are: some multi-channel amps are able to route all of the power available in the power section into each channel dynamically. In other words, suppose the amp is able to produce 200 Watts into each of 5 channels simultaneously. Some multichannel amps are able to route that full 1000 Watts into a single channel on demand, or 500 Watts into two channels simultaneously on demand. In other words, if one or two particular channels call for a sudden, huge spike in dynamic power, some multi-channel amps are able to deliver that by essentially re-routing all of the available power into those one or two channels. Monoblock amps, meanwhile, will always have their rated power for each individual channel - no more, no less.

The second difference is potential cross-talk. With all of the channels in a multichannel amp sharing the same power source, there is the potential for cross-talk between channels to occur. In other words, the signal in, say, the Left Front channel might "bleed" a little bit into the Center or Right Front channel and if you put your ear up against the Center or Right Front speaker, you might hear sound that is only supposed to be coming out of the Left Front speaker (just as an example). Meanwhile, monoblock amps will never have any cross-talk - unless cross-talk occurs inside the processor.

The final difference is noise floor. This is not really a "multichannel vs. mono" design difference. But it is a practical difference that shows up in real world usage more often than not. Since a high power multichannel amp often has a larger power section than a monoblock that is rated to deliver the same power into each channel, you'll often have a higher noise floor with the multichannel amp. Put your ear right up against your speaker's tweeter and you'll often hear a soft hiss when the processor, amp and source are all turned on and connected but nothing is playing. You might just as likely hear a soft hiss with a monoblock amp as well - it really all comes down to the design and quality of the amp. But just in terms of likelihood and what is common in real world usage, you'll find more monoblock amps that produce extremely little or no hiss at all vs. multichannel amps that are rated to deliver the same power into each channel. The multichannel amps almost always produce at least a slight hiss. Some have a fairly substantial hiss.

So me, personally, I detest having a noise floor. I can't stand any level of audible hiss, hum, buzz or other operational noise. When there is meant to be silence in a soundtrack or song, I want to hear silence! I'm not going to the trouble of soundproofing my theater and acoustically treating it just so I can hear an operational hiss, hum, buzz or whir when the recording calls for dead silence! As a result, I tend to favor monoblock amps myself. You'll more often eliminate any noise floor with monoblocks and you'll never run into cross-talk. So long as the monoblocks have all the power you need to hit the dynamic peaks that you require/want, there's no down side to monoblocks - other than needing more receptacles and power cords ;)

And FYI, you might want to also consider the Emotiva UPA-1 monoblock amps. I haven't tested the Outlaw 2200 monoblocks enough to know whether they are any better or worse than the Emotiva UPA-1, so this isn't any sort of "knock" against the Outlaw 2200 amps. I can merely vouch for the UPA-1 amps as being DEAD silent in the noise floor category and capable of very clean output a little above Emotiva's conservative specs. I'm not saying the Outlaw 2200 are necessarily worse or that the Emotiva UPA-1 are definitely a better choice - I honestly don't know since I've not tested the Outlaw 2200 extensively. But yeah, just saying the Emotiva UPS-1 FOR SURE are terrific monoblocks at an affordable price ;)
Well it would seem like I'm getting pointed in the direction of monoblocks which is just fine. I wish there was someone who could vouch for the 2200 like you can vouch for the UPA-1. If for nothing else because outlaw offers great deals on purchasing more than 1 monoblock.
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
Well it would seem like I'm getting pointed in the direction of monoblocks which is just fine. I wish there was someone who could vouch for the 2200 like you can vouch for the UPA-1. If for nothing else because outlaw offers great deals on purchasing more than 1 monoblock.
You get what you pay for. Now would you pay $4500.00 each for these mb200_amp with the same power output? Well let me put it this way, these are not Outlaws or Emotivas, these are real amps. And yes, there is a difference, no matter what anybody tells you.
 
psbfan9

psbfan9

Audioholic Samurai
If someone does use more than amp, are they 'daisy chained' from amp to amp? Or how does this work? Could power or quality be lost be lost in the chain?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
If someone does use more than amp, are they 'daisy chained' from amp to amp? Or how does this work? Could power or quality be lost be lost in the chain?
I don't think the Outlaw 2200 can be daisy-chain since they don't have any A/C outlet on the back.

The Emotiva UPA-1 cannot either.

You will need a surge protector power outlet.

I've seen some monoblocks that can be daisy-chain. You don't lose any "quality".:D
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
If someone does use more than amp, are they 'daisy chained' from amp to amp? Or how does this work? Could power or quality be lost be lost in the chain?
The Marantz monoblocks did offer that feature and I think even came with a short pigtail plug just for doing that. I think they are the only ones I've seen like that.
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
The difference (in most cases) is each mono has a dedicated power supply that is only providing power to the channel it is amplifying. Each speaker plays something slightly different, so each one presents a different load to its amp channel at a given time. That's great in theory, but with a well designed amp that has enough power for what you are trying to do and you aren't using insanely power hungry speakers and looking for hearing damage levels, there probably won't be a noticeable difference as ADTG said.
If anything, I think a case can be made that a very large shared power supply is a better solution than individual power supplies in the real world. The reason is that actual program material will rarely tax all channels at once. So if, for instance, one has a big event happening up front, it's better for the fronts to be able to "borrow" from the other speakers, than to be limited by individual PS's.

That's one thing Carver got really right on his original multichannel amps, IMO.

***Not ALL amps are that big. Marantz used to have their MA500s and MA6100s that 5 side by side were the same size as a typical 5ch amp, by design. I used to run three MA500s for my front stage. The XPA-3 has quite a bit more power, but takes up 3X the space. No complaints :D
Marantz also had a "double wide" (i.e. roughly 2x as wide as the MA500) monobloc, the MA700, that was about as powerful as a channel of the XPA-3. Three of them were considerably more expensive than an XPA-3 is, though. Even on the used market, despite being out of production for perhaps a decade, three of them cost close to what an XPA-3 costs today.

You mean 'they' don't make a mono block that is over a 100 lbs? :eek: What is this world coming to?;):D
Well, Nelson Pass has some two-chassis monoblocs that are probably more than that. :)

(And I mean just in casework, excluding the guts.)

Well it would seem like I'm getting pointed in the direction of monoblocks which is just fine. I wish there was someone who could vouch for the 2200 like you can vouch for the UPA-1. If for nothing else because outlaw offers great deals on purchasing more than 1 monoblock.
I have a pair of NHT A1 monoblocs. The Outlaw M2200 is a knockoff of the A1. It's a perfectly fine amp, and I like the convection-cooled 1RU format. You can see measurements of them here.

However, it's worth noting that the optimal amp for most systems is in fact the amp integrated into the AVR. Most speakers are reasonably easy to drive, and the only thing putting more than 50W or so into them will do is cause thermal compression.
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
If someone does use more than amp, are they 'daisy chained' from amp to amp? Or how does this work? Could power or quality be lost be lost in the chain?
The daisy-chain is for signal, not power for the most part. At least, I've never seen an amp with an outlet (or IEC or Powercon receptacle) on the back to allow one to drive another equally-powerful amp off of it, at least. Perhaps some do exist, though.

Given the high output impedance of modern preamps, it shouldn't be an issue if one's just daisy-chaining a signal between two or three amps. More, and get a line driver.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Marantz also had a "double wide" (i.e. roughly 2x as wide as the MA500) monobloc, the MA700, that was about as powerful as a channel of the XPA-3. Three of them were considerably more expensive than an XPA-3 is, though. Even on the used market, despite being out of production for perhaps a decade, three of them cost close to what an XPA-3 costs today.
It was technically a "triple wide" LOL. Three of them side by side was the same width as five MA500s. They held their value well. I paid $140 each for my 500s and sold them a few years later for $100 each.
 
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walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
If someone does use more than amp, are they 'daisy chained' from amp to amp? Or how does this work? Could power or quality be lost be lost in the chain?
When you daisy chain power amps you power amps that have RCA outs. You're just feeding a pre amps signal to the next amp. I think I only had two amps that had this feature, SAE and VSP Labs Gold Edition. Your getting the same signal out of all the amps you daisy chain. It's like the plate amps on the subs. I run 4 subs daisy chained. These days on don't see RCA outputs on any power amp. Might have been a feature that was used in the 70's and 80's. Besides that would only work for 2 channel listening with multiple left and right speakers.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
If anything, I think a case can be made that a very large shared power supply is a better solution than individual power supplies in the real world. The reason is that actual program material will rarely tax all channels at once. So if, for instance, one has a big event happening up front, it's better for the fronts to be able to "borrow" from the other speakers, than to be limited by individual PS's.

That's one thing Carver got really right on his original multichannel amps, IMO.



Marantz also had a "double wide" (i.e. roughly 2x as wide as the MA500) monobloc, the MA700, that was about as powerful as a channel of the XPA-3. Three of them were considerably more expensive than an XPA-3 is, though. Even on the used market, despite being out of production for perhaps a decade, three of them cost close to what an XPA-3 costs today.



Well, Nelson Pass has some two-chassis monoblocs that are probably more than that. :)

(And I mean just in casework, excluding the guts.)



I have a pair of NHT A1 monoblocs. The Outlaw M2200 is a knockoff of the A1. It's a perfectly fine amp, and I like the convection-cooled 1RU format. You can see measurements of them here.

However, it's worth noting that the optimal amp for most systems is in fact the amp integrated into the AVR. Most speakers are reasonably easy to drive, and the only thing putting more than 50W or so into them will do is cause thermal compression.
I just need something that will deliver 100W at 4ohm with a reasonably low distortion level because that is what was recommended for the speakers I'm looking at. I was also thinking about mono blocks just because it would provide future flexibility in terms of upgrading.

I'm still browsing (and learning) so maybe someone else has something else to say about this other than what has already been said?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I just need something that will deliver 100W at 4ohm with a reasonably low distortion level because that is what was recommended for the speakers I'm looking at.
Another possibility is the ATI AT1202 stereo amp (2ch).



AT1202 Two-Channel Amplifier

It is conservatively rated @ 120wpc/8ohm & 180wpc/4ohm, which means it will be closer to 150wpc/8ohm & 200wpc/4ohm.

ATI is one of the few remaining rare American muscle amp company (all made in California). They are well-known for making amps for Mark Levinson, Lexicon, JBL, Outlaw Audio, Earthquake Audio, & Cinepro. We are talking high quality parts. No wonder they have earned the respect of the Harman International group and many others.

You can get the AT1202 for $600 (retail $900) from an ATI authorized dealer Classic Audio Parts with full 7 yr warranty.

Amplifiers
 
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