Amplifiers (again)

[mulester7]

Yes Mulester, but sometimes passions are not shared. Unrequited love is a real b***h isn't it? Your probably old enough to appreciate the fact that sometimes you just get to suck it up and deal.
d.b.

.....hahaha, I hear you, Dan....hey, I'm trying to deal out sound quality here....and let's say Outlaw, Adcom, and some of the Crown models....and sure, I realize some budgets are strained already....but are we after truth, at a working man's price, or not?......

 

[Reorx]

Well, Since I was tired of reading the same old arguement over and over again. I decided last night to test it out myself.
I listened to my speakers (100wt RMS 8ohm) through my receiver (spec below). Then I hooked my Ashley amp (spec below) to my mains using the pre-outs on my receiver. And listened again.

Source: 2 different DVD players...cheapo Apex, and a Sony Combo deck.
Connected using toslink cables.
Media: Some old brasilian cd..non sa-cd/dvd-a.
I don't have a SPL meter so was unable to get them exactly the same SPL.

I COULD hear a difference. The highs sounded higher, lows a little deeper. The difference is more then just the SPL not being exactly the same. I think because my speakers are pretty efficient the difference is not as great as it could of been. I would hypothise that the difference would be more noticible with less efficient speakers.

Some possible contributing factors:
Quality of receivers pre-outs vs powered.
Amp coloring. The Amp is a good pro-grade amp...I couldnt find anything in the manual or specs that would lead me to believe it colors.

FYI, my ears are not as fine tuned as more seasoned audioholic's...and -I- could hear a difference.

Reorx

 

[mulester7]

I COULD hear a difference. The highs sounded higher, lows a little deeper. The difference is more then just the SPL not being exactly the same. I think because my speakers are pretty efficient the difference is not as great as it could of been. I would hypothise that the difference would be more noticible with less efficient speakers.Reorx

.....with 8 ohm, 100 watt, "efficient", speakers....what you heard was, "cleaner", Reorx....up closer to the recorded group's "live" speakers.....

 

[mtrycrafts]

.....NomoSony, are we speaking from experience past 70-100 watts continuous?....hey, you're not the only one.....

You need better speakers if you are using 70-100 watts continuous power, in your home. And, if this is in an auditorium, you need different equipment altogether.

 

[mtrycrafts]

.....NomoSony, you and Mtry got company....DPoneill, can you tell me how you arrived at this?......

How about all the DBT listening of amps in the past 35 years by a large group of folks? Perhaps 20+ such experiments, perhaps as many as 1000s of trials and people?
Certainly more credible than biased, sighted listening

 

[mtrycrafts]

.....DPoneill, he said this right up front....you didn't answer my question....have you ever experienced at least 200 watts-continuous?....this is not a matter of "can the receiver get the speakers loud and still clean"....you know, if I made the statement "watts will make no difference", I believe I would have the basis to say so....hugs all around, gentlemen.....

Now we are talking 200 watts continuous? I think that is an insane amount of continuous power to listen to. No thanks. Maybe a 100 ft, open space?

 

[Reorx]

Thanks Mule. I was trying to find the right word to describe it.
So is it pretty much the distortion from my receivers built in amps > my ashley?
So If I got a much higher quality receiver that had equivilent distortion numbers to the amp...Would the difference still be there?

Now I just need to save up and figure out the right amp configurations I want to use.

Reorx

 

[mtrycrafts]

Because others are standing with you, is that a guarantee of anything or immunity from being wrong?
Plenty of example out there when others are standing on an issue.

 

[mulester7]

Now we are talking 200 watts continuous? I think that is an insane amount of continuous power to listen to. No thanks. Maybe a 100 ft, open space?

.....oh ye' of little faith, that walk in ignorance.....on this, at least....who said 200 watts was being used?....(I can hear it now from Mrty...."THEN WHY HAVE IT???")......

 

[Ax-man]

I run a 2 ch 200wpc Rotel amp connected to my HK635 to drive my 4 ohm mains while letting the HK handle the sides and center, to me it makes for a wonderful system and *I* can hear a difference. I primarily did this to reduce the load from the HK for the 4 ohm speakers but was quite surprised and impressed with the sound difference. So much so that eventually I'll add a 5 ch amp and then later a dedicated processor.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Well, Since I was tired of reading the same old arguement over and over again. I decided last night to test it out myself.
I listened to my speakers (100wt RMS 8ohm) through my receiver (spec below). Then I hooked my Ashley amp (spec below) to my mains using the pre-outs on my receiver. And listened again.

Source: 2 different DVD players...cheapo Apex, and a Sony Combo deck.
Connected using toslink cables.
Media: Some old brasilian cd..non sa-cd/dvd-a.
I don't have a SPL meter so was unable to get them exactly the same SPL.

I COULD hear a difference. The highs sounded higher, lows a little deeper. The difference is more then just the SPL not being exactly the same. I think because my speakers are pretty efficient the difference is not as great as it could of been. I would hypothise that the difference would be more noticible with less efficient speakers.

Some possible contributing factors:
Quality of receivers pre-outs vs powered.
Amp coloring. The Amp is a good pro-grade amp...I couldnt find anything in the manual or specs that would lead me to believe it colors.

FYI, my ears are not as fine tuned as more seasoned audioholic's...and -I- could hear a difference.

Reorx

I know what you mean about the same old arguments. I get tired repeating that 2+2 = 4, all the time.

Now to your listening experiment. Are you sure you level matched the two components to .1dB spl level? How about bias? Did you control for that? After all, maybe your eyes did all the listening, not your ears. You really don't need to see or know which component you were listening to when. Then, perhaps, if you can identify the component 9 out of 10 tries, you may indeed have 'golden ears' but historically, that just doesn't happen with competent amps.

 

[mulester7]

Thanks Mule. I was trying to find the right word to describe it.
So is it pretty much the distortion from my receivers built in amps > my ashley?
So If I got a much higher quality receiver that had equivilent distortion numbers to the amp...Would the difference still be there?

Now I just need to save up and figure out the right amp configurations I want to use.

Reorx

.....Reorx, you used the same pre-pro processor for both the amp sections you compared....were you to get even cleaner before amplification, you would reap commensurately....and also, haha....that amp you used on the efficient speakers was rated 300 at 8, both channels....I'm sure glad you used that one, haha....I hope what you heard was enough to not let that amp draw dust at this time....wanna' sell it?....cheap-like?......

 

[mulester7]

Are you sure you level matched the two components to .1dB spl level? How about bias? Did you control for that? After all, maybe your eyes did all the listening, not your ears

.....Mrtycrafts, you need to incorporate some choice arickanoid, mixed with Asian roofblander, sprinkled with a little Radio Shack hemblant....reports have come in, from guys who weren't fooled, and the difference toward the improvement of sound quality was obvious.....aaahh, it's been a good day.....

 

[MDS]

This is definitely the same old stuff but slightly more entertaining this time.

Let's follow the 'logic':

- Point: With a 200 wpc continuous amp you will definitely notice the difference.
- Counterpoint: You won't ever be using 200 wpc continuous.
- Point: I never said I was using all 200 wpc continuous.

?????

 

[mulester7]

?????

....MDS, your brain says, "this does not compute"....your ears would take exception....you must hear it....and bring all the meters you want, although we're learning to go for the "sweet spot" as to what an individual's reference-level might be....and, your sweet-spot will go up in spl's, with the downing of distortion.....

 

[BostonMark]

works for me

Well, I guess half of you can say I am wrong, and I didn't hear what I hear, but I also have a Yamaha surround sound receiver, the 5280 which is rated 100 watts a channel, and in the big scheme of things, is probably referred to as a mid fi receiver. I listen to music and watch movies equally. For my front left and rights I have a pair of Polk Audio Monitor 70's, a nice sounding pair from Polk's more affordable line. I found a used Rotel RB 995 200 watts per channel stereo amplifier for 500 bucks and picked it up, to separately power my front speakers from the Yammies preouts.

One, the extra power does NOT create some strange unbalanced sound when I watch movies. Movies still sound awesome.

Two, I do notice a difference listening to music with the Rotel, especially with SACD and DVD-audio sources. My Polks just sound richer and fuller with the Rotel. I don't know if that is because the Rotel is cleaner than my Yamaha, I don't know if its because my Rotel has more power than my Yamaha. I just notice that both at low volumes and at higher volumes, I like the sound of my Polks even better with the Rotel, than I did with the Yamaha receiver. It also made the difference between my mp3s and original CDs easier to hear (sigh, on the one hand the mp3s sound even better, but on the other, I used to think they sounded as good as my original CDs, but quality equipment shows that they don't)

Eventually, I would like to add a Rotel 120 watt 5 channel amplifier, and get a 7 channel processor. I also believe that the Rotel will benefit me if (who am I kidding, when) I upgrade my speakers, based on a lot of research into various high end speakers. I have read time and time again that more power (meaning good clean power, not just power) will make speakers sound better.

I didn't have monkeys blindfold me and switch back and forth between the two, I didn't set SPL levels to a fourth of a decibel and I didn't make sure that the room acoustics were exactly the same before I added the Rotel, I just listened, and I liked the sound better. Although I understand the importance of all these things, sometimes I think we can just trust our ears to know that some things sound better than others (i.e. I don't need any double blind triple X study to hear that Krell amps hooked up to Dali speakers sound better than Bose amps hooked up to Bose speakers).

For the record, I got the advice to add the separate amp from audioholics forums, and I am happy with the advice, and can report that to my ears, it does make a difference.

 

[mulester7]

Well, I guess half of you can say I am wrong, and I didn't hear what I hear, but I also have a Yamaha surround sound receiver, the 5280 which is rated 100 watts a channel, and in the big scheme of things, is probably referred to as a mid fi receiver. I listen to music and watch movies equally. For my front left and rights I have a pair of Polk Audio Monitor 70's, a nice sounding pair from Polk's more affordable line. I found a used Rotel RB 995 200 watts per channel stereo amplifier for 500 bucks and picked it up, to separately power my front speakers from the Yammies preouts.

One, the extra power does NOT create some strange unbalanced sound when I watch movies. Movies still sound awesome.

Two, I do notice a difference listening to music with the Rotel, especially with SACD and DVD-audio sources. My Polks just sound richer and fuller with the Rotel. I don't know if that is because the Rotel is cleaner than my Yamaha, I don't know if its because my Rotel has more power than my Yamaha. I just notice that both at low volumes and at higher volumes, I like the sound of my Polks even better with the Rotel, than I did with the Yamaha receiver. It also made the difference between my mp3s and original CDs easier to hear (sigh, on the one hand the mp3s sound even better, but on the other, I used to think they sounded as good as my original CDs, but quality equipment shows that they don't)

Eventually, I would like to add a Rotel 120 watt 5 channel amplifier, and get a 7 channel processor. I also believe that the Rotel will benefit me if (who am I kidding, when) I upgrade my speakers, based on a lot of research into various high end speakers. I have read time and time again that more power (meaning good clean power, not just power) will make speakers sound better.

I didn't have monkeys blindfold me and switch back and forth between the two, I didn't set SPL levels to a fourth of a decibel and I didn't make sure that the room acoustics were exactly the same before I added the Rotel, I just listened, and I liked the sound better. Although I understand the importance of all these things, sometimes I think we can just trust our ears to know that some things sound better than others (i.e. I don't need any double blind triple X study to hear that Krell amps hooked up to Dali speakers sound better than Bose amps hooked up to Bose speakers).

For the record, I got the advice to add the separate amp from audioholics forums, and I am happy with the advice, and can report that to my ears, it does make a difference.

....."I'm siiiiiiingin' in the rain, just siiiiiiingin' in the rain, what a glooooorious feelin', I'm haaaaapy again,"........

 

[Ax-man]

....."I'm siiiiiiingin' in the rain, just siiiiiiingin' in the rain, what a glooooorious feelin', I'm haaaaapy again,"........

^ ^ ^^ ^^^^

 

[mtrycrafts]

.....oh ye' of little faith, that walk in ignorance.....on this, at least....who said 200 watts was being used?....(I can hear it now from Mrty...."THEN WHY HAVE IT???")......

You did say in your post above ....have you ever experienced at least 200 watts-continuous?...

Or, did you just mean a 200 watt amp? If the latter, no big deal. That extra 3 dB spl comes in at the peaks. Maybe your speaker is insensitive?

 

[Reorx]

I have a solution to propose.
Lets have Clint, Gds, or one of the other admins test it in one of their demo rooms.
With both high and low end receivers, both efficient and in-efficient speakers, and with one of their awesome super amps that they have.

Let's have the pro's give their answer.

Tonight, I also tested amp vs no amp with my wife. She could tell the difference as well...I asked her, which sounds better...and switched between the 2. She knows little to nothing about electronics..so she has a unbiased opinion. The room this took place in is 25x15, the couch she sat on is about ~12 feet away from the speakers. And like I said once before...I have no SPL meter.

Reorx