Amplifiers (again)

[gcmarshall]

Hi all.

Here is what I am pondering. Feel free to critique, praise, etc., my thinking. Everyone's advice, as usual, is helpful. I have the Yamaha RX-V2500. I am on a power trip (wife not happy). Movies are good, could be better. 2 channel music could be better. Thinking about a 2 channel amplifier to run front left/right and letting the 2500 run center and 2 surround speakers (could always do 5 channel amp, but trying to not spend so much).

Is that doable for movies - ie, to power the mains from external amp while powering center/surrounds with the receiver? If I have a 200 watt/ch amp, won't my mains seem overpowered compared to the center/surrounds when watching movies? Can I set up the Yamaha to send signals out of the "pre-out" left/right jacks to the amplifier for the two front mains and, at the same time, send signals to the center/surround speakers directly from the yamaha's speaker jacks ALL AT THE SAME TIME? Or must all the speakers be driven by either the amp or the receiver, but not both at the same time?

pluses, minuses to this approach. help with my questions appreciated, etc.

you know you're an addict when you'd rather stay up til 1 "testing" new equipment than go to bed with your wife.

 

[MDS]

Yes, you can use any combination of the pre-outs and speaker terminals. As far as overpowering the mains because of using a more powerful amp for those channels - it won't be an issue if you calibrate the receiver.

One thing to consider though. Amps usually specify 'X volts for rated output'. If the amp is rated 200 wpc and specifies '2 Volts for rated output' then you will never get to the full 200 wpc if the pre-outs on the receiver are less than 2 volts.

 

[jcPanny]

Are you sure that amp power is the weak link.

Your Yamaha will deliver some decent power to each speaker, especially in 2 channel stereo mode. See Audioholics review for specs.

Are you sure that you have a power issue and not a calibration, speaker performance, or room acoustics issue?

Unless you are driving <= 4ohm fronts that are inefficent, investigate the other components of your system before your amp upgrade. If you have a good relationship with a local dealer you could always borrow an amp to see if you notice any improvement.

 

[gcmarshall]

JcPanny--good points. i use boston acoustics HD10's for my fronts. i ran the auto setup on the 2500. i have also tweaked a couple of the auto setups settings that didn't suit me. the music i hear seems to be a little muffled....no compelling highs and flat lows, if that makes sense. yes, i can sense that the receiver has good power, but the balance between clarity and power i was hoping for just seems a tad flat. at low volume levels, music is uninspiring. i have to really turn it up to a point where it's too loud in order to hear better detail in the music. i was thinking of upgrading to Polk LSi15's, a 2 channel amp at 200 watts/ch that could drive those 4 ohm speakers and seeing if that sounded better. don't really know what to do. maybe it's my current speakers or the receiver's clarity or a combination of the two. very much a grey area. as a side note - i was 100% content with my music on my sony str-de711 that recently died....very much an entry-level receiver circa 1994 or so, but it had a good balance between high, mid , lows thru my boston speakers. i had listened to yamahas in years past and heard what others called "brightness". i wonder if yamaha overcorrected for this brightness in the 2500?

 

[agarwalro]

What does adding an amp do?

2 channel music could be better. Thinking about a 2 channel amplifier to run front left/right and letting the 2500 run center and 2 surround speakers

Just out of curiosity, what do you feel is missing from the sound now? What do you intend to gain by adding a 2-ch amp? The Yammy has a pretty good amp section and should have more than enough power to drive your speakers... unless you are planning to drop $1000.00 or so on a top of the line amp?

 

[mtrycrafts]

JcPanny--good points. i use boston acoustics HD10's for my fronts. i ran the auto setup on the 2500. i have also tweaked a couple of the auto setups settings that didn't suit me. the music i hear seems to be a little muffled....no compelling highs and flat lows, if that makes sense. yes, i can sense that the receiver has good power, but the balance between clarity and power i was hoping for just seems a tad flat. at low volume levels, music is uninspiring. i have to really turn it up to a point where it's too loud in order to hear better detail in the music. i was thinking of upgrading to Polk LSi15's, a 2 channel amp at 200 watts/ch that could drive those 4 ohm speakers and seeing if that sounded better. don't really know what to do. maybe it's my current speakers or the receiver's clarity or a combination of the two. very much a grey area. as a side note - i was 100% content with my music on my sony str-de711 that recently died....very much an entry-level receiver circa 1994 or so, but it had a good balance between high, mid , lows thru my boston speakers. i had listened to yamahas in years past and heard what others called "brightness". i wonder if yamaha overcorrected for this brightness in the 2500?

From the sound of your issues, you have other problems, not amp issues.
Speakers and room, or even the software itself, the music CD or whatever.

 

[mulester7]

Hi all.

Here is what I am pondering. Feel free to critique, praise, etc., my thinking. Everyone's advice, as usual, is helpful. I have the Yamaha RX-V2500. I am on a power trip (wife not happy). Movies are good, could be better. 2 channel music could be better. Thinking about a 2 channel amplifier to run front left/right and letting the 2500 run center and 2 surround speakers (could always do 5 channel amp, but trying to not spend so much).

Is that doable for movies - ie, to power the mains from external amp while powering center/surrounds with the receiver? If I have a 200 watt/ch amp, won't my mains seem overpowered compared to the center/surrounds when watching movies? Can I set up the Yamaha to send signals out of the "pre-out" left/right jacks to the amplifier for the two front mains and, at the same time, send signals to the center/surround speakers directly from the yamaha's speaker jacks ALL AT THE SAME TIME? Or must all the speakers be driven by either the amp or the receiver, but not both at the same time?

pluses, minuses to this approach. help with my questions appreciated, etc.

you know you're an addict when you'd rather stay up til 1 "testing" new equipment than go to bed with your wife.

.....I say go for it with watts for the front left and right....be sure and listen to just those two both ways....if would be best if the center were amped also, but look down the road for that....you'll love your new fronts....and they will seem new.....

 

[Nomo]

As was stated, adding an amp for your fronts is not going to make a huge difference to the sound of your current set-up. Changing speakers or improving the room acoustics would make a much more noticeable difference.
An amp would be more justifiable with the addition of Polk speakers but it seems as though your problem has more to do with acoustics or speaker placement than lack of power.
Ideally you should audition in your home before you buy anything. you may find you somewhat wasted your money.

 

[mulester7]

As was stated, adding an amp for your fronts is not going to make a huge difference to the sound of your current set-up

.....NomoSony, are we speaking from experience past 70-100 watts continuous?....hey, you're not the only one.....

 

[dponeill]

Hi all.

Here is what I am pondering. Feel free to critique, praise, etc., my thinking. Everyone's advice, as usual, is helpful. I have the Yamaha RX-V2500. I am on a power trip (wife not happy). Movies are good, could be better. 2 channel music could be better. Thinking about a 2 channel amplifier to run front left/right and letting the 2500 run center and 2 surround speakers (could always do 5 channel amp, but trying to not spend so much).

Is that doable for movies - ie, to power the mains from external amp while powering center/surrounds with the receiver? If I have a 200 watt/ch amp, won't my mains seem overpowered compared to the center/surrounds when watching movies? Can I set up the Yamaha to send signals out of the "pre-out" left/right jacks to the amplifier for the two front mains and, at the same time, send signals to the center/surround speakers directly from the yamaha's speaker jacks ALL AT THE SAME TIME? Or must all the speakers be driven by either the amp or the receiver, but not both at the same time?

pluses, minuses to this approach. help with my questions appreciated, etc.

you know you're an addict when you'd rather stay up til 1 "testing" new equipment than go to bed with your wife.

The chances of a 2 channel amp being an worthwhile improvement are somewhere between slim and none. Unless you are trying to drive inefficient speakers at reference levels in a very large room, whatever you are not quite satisfied with is not likely to be a power issue. Don't be taken in by the "more power cures everything" delusion that seems to permeate this forum. What would be most usefull from you would be a better idea of exactly what you feel is currently lacking in your system.

 

[mulester7]

The chances of a 2 channel amp being an worthwhile improvement are somewhere between slim and none. Unless you are trying to drive inefficent speakers at reference levels in a very large room, whatever you are not quite satisfied with is not likely to be a power issue

.....NomoSony, you and Mtry got company....DPoneill, can you tell me how you arrived at this?......

 

[dponeill]

.....NomoSony, you and Mtry got company....DPoneill, can you tell me how you arrived at this?......

You don't even know what he doesn't currently like about his system and you are recommending that he buy an amp? Can you tell me how you arrived at THAT?

 

[Dan Banquer]

Amplifiers Again

There is very simple way to tell if your amplifier is running out of steam. You put an oscilloscope on the speaker inputs and you carefully watch the wave forms and if you see peaks being flattened than you may have an issue, The next step is to check the output of your source to check if the same thing is happening only at a lower voltage. If it is, than it could well be that the source material you are using suffers from hyper compression and excessive digital limiting. If not, then you may need an amplifier with more power.
Hope this helps;
d.b.

 

[MacManNM]

There is very simple way to tell if your amplifier is running out of steam. You put an oscilloscope on the speaker inputs and you carefully watch the wave forms and if you see peaks being flattened than you may have an issue, The next step is to check the output of your source to check if the same thing is happening only at a lower voltage. If it is, than it could well be that the source material you are using suffers from hyper compression and excessive digital limiting. If not, then you may need an amplifier with more power.
Hope this helps;
d.b.

A 2 chan DSO, use a x10 probe on the output, usually works pretty good.

 

[mulester7]

Movies are good, could be better. 2 channel music could be better. Thinking about a 2 channel amplifier to run front left/right and letting the 2500 run center and 2 surround speakers (could always do 5 channel amp, but trying to not spend so much)

.....DPoneill, he said this right up front....you didn't answer my question....have you ever experienced at least 200 watts-continuous?....this is not a matter of "can the receiver get the speakers loud and still clean"....you know, if I made the statement "watts will make no difference", I believe I would have the basis to say so....hugs all around, gentlemen.....

 

[Dan Banquer]

"DPoneill, he said this right up front....you didn't answer my question....have you ever experienced at least 200 watts-continuous?....this is not a matter of "can the receiver get the speakers loud and still clean"....you know, if I made the statement "watts will make no difference", I believe I would have the basis to say so....hugs all around, gentlemen....."

I have; and to tell you the truth more watts doesn't always make a better amplifier. In fact the more watts you have the worse your signal to noise ratio is. This has a tendency to get pretty obvious to some of us who enjoy digitally recorded acoustic music.
I'll hazard a guess that the higher powered amplifiers have bigger unregulated power supplies that will give better regulation on lighter loads. This has a tendency to make the amplifier more uniform in performance in the area you may be using it. Either that or maybe you prefer more noise.
I could make a stab at few other guesses, but I think I will be polite: for the moment.
d.b.

 

[dponeill]

.....DPoneill, he said this right up front....you didn't answer my question....have you ever experienced at least 200 watts-continuous?....this is not a matter of "can the receiver get the speakers loud and still clean"....you know, if I made the statement "watts will make no difference", I believe I would have the basis to say so....hugs all around, gentlemen.....

He said what right up front? He said stereo and movies "could be better". I wasn't aware that "could be better" = "needs more watts".

So you're saying that a receiver that can get the speakers to perfom loudly and cleanly will benefit from more watts? In what way?

I did not make the statement that watts will make no difference. In fact, I clearly stated the conditions under which they would.

And yes I have had more than 200 wpc. The fact of the matter is that unless you are driving a 100w amp beyond it's capabilities a 200w amp will sound no different.

 

[mulester7]

The fact of the matter is that unless you are driving a 100w amp beyond it's capabilities it a 200w amp will sound no different.

....and I KNOW different, as many others here have said the same thing...which over 200 wpc amps did you have?....

 

[mulester7]

In fact the more watts you have the worse your signal to noise ratio is. This has a tendency to get pretty obvious to some of us who enjoy digitally recorded acoustic music.


I could make a stab at few other guesses, but I think I will be polite: for the momentd.b.

.....yes, some amplification is cleaner than others, Dan....and you go ahead and jump in there and be impolite if you feel the need....others have stood with me on this issue, but, they may not today, haha....I have a passion about this one.....

 

[Dan Banquer]

Amplifiers Again

Yes Mulester, but sometimes passions are not shared. Unrequited love is a real b***h isn't it? Your probably old enough to appreciate the fact that sometimes you just get to suck it up and deal.
d.b.