Amplifier wattage and loudness

[Findus]

Hi folks,

I have 2 Kef LS50 speakers here. I have them connected to a vintage Rotel RA-612 amp (2x35 w @ 8 ohm) which I believe sounds fine, yet I have been curious whether more wattage would improve the sound (as I understand many users believe).

So I asked a friend to lend me his Ecler Pac200 power amp (2x100 w @ 8 ohm), and to my surprise the power amp is not as loud as my Rotel.
On the Rotel, for normal quite loud listening level, the volume meter would be on like 4, while the power amp needs to go to 6-7 for the same volume. How can that be? Is the Rotel listed as much less powerful than it really is, or is the Ecler listed as too powerfull (or is it perhaps defect)?

Thank you for your input!

Findus

 

[Leemix]

They have different gain or if they are integrated amplifiers they can just have different volume controls. For example linear vs. logarithmic. It doesnt matter at all how “high” the volume control is set. The difference in watts is how lound you can go max before clipping. Low watt amps can sound very good but wont be able to play as loud. You speakers dont really do very loud either, its not what they were made for.


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[highfigh]

Hi folks,

I have 2 Kef LS50 speakers here. I have them connected to a vintage Rotel RA-612 amp (2x35 w @ 8 ohm) which I believe sounds fine, yet I have been curious whether more wattage would improve the sound (as I understand many users believe).

So I asked a friend to lend me his Ecler Pac200 power amp (2x100 w @ 8 ohm), and to my surprise the power amp is not as loud as my Rotel.
On the Rotel, for normal quite loud listening level, the volume meter would be on like 4, while the power amp needs to go to 6-7 for the same volume. How can that be? Is the Rotel listed as much less powerful than it really is, or is the Ecler listed as too powerfull (or is it perhaps defect)?

Thank you for your input!

Findus

If you want loud, you need more power. Power is a calculated value, based on (in the case of audio systems) impedance and voltage to the load (the speakers). 35W can't be louder than 100W when connected to the same speakers unless they present a load that the amplifier can't handle and knowing that Ecler makes equipment that produces high levels of output, I really think you need to raise the level controls on the power amp.

Power amps often need the level control(s) set to maximum level that doesn't add noise before they develop full output, so raise the control on the Ecler. Decreasing the power amp's control and raising the stage ahead of it is a good way to cause heavy distortion.

Each time a device that can add gain, it's called a 'stage', so that would explain what you may have seen called 'gain stage'. You need to let the Ecler do its job.

 

[lovinthehd]

Were you using your integrated amp as a pre-amp for the power amp? Or you're comparing the volume control's arbitrary position on the integrated amp to the arbritrary gain control on the power amp? Or ?

 

[Findus]

Thank you so much for your answers!

It's not that I'm looking for more volume, but rather that I have read that these speakers sound a whole lot better when driven by a more powerful amplifier.

I use an Ecler dj mixer as pre-amp for both the power amp and the integrated amp. Volume on both amps is set to max. The relative volume (referred to as "4" vs "6-7" in my initial post) is on the mixer.

Is perhaps the signal pre-amplified twice in the case of the integrated amp (first from mixer than from the Rotel's built-in pre-amp), thus resulting in stronger signal?

 

[Kleinst]

I had some nice D-Sonic monoblocks that could deliver 500WPC / 8ohms. But i was feeding them from an AVR with pre outs which is what I have in all my setups. I think the output voltage for my AVR isn't consistent with their input requirement and therefore I had to adjust the levels in the AVR to get back to the same SPL that I was getting from my outlaw amp. It wasn't worth it to me and I sold them. If I had a pre-amp that had a stronger voltage then perhaps those would have been amazing and they probably were. So matching your receiver/pre amp to the amp probably impacts the reaction we get from the AMP I presume. At least that's what I was thinking the difference was. Please educate me on this further if I'm off

 

[lovinthehd]

Thank you so much for your answers!

It's not that I'm looking for more volume, but rather that I have read that these speakers sound a whole lot better when driven by a more powerful amplifier.

I use an Ecler dj mixer as pre-amp for both the power amp and the integrated amp. Volume on both amps is set to max. The relative volume (referred to as "4" vs "6-7" in my initial post) is on the mixer.

Is perhaps the signal pre-amplified twice in the case of the integrated amp (first from mixer than from the Rotel's built-in pre-amp), thus resulting in stronger signal?

Just different amp sensitivity perhaps. Why do you use a mixer as a pre-amp for an integrated amp? Just for the comparison or ? Why do you need to max out the gain on the amps?

Speakers don't magically sound different just because they're hooked up to an amp that is more powerful, altho may sound better with the more powerful amp at higher volume levels if the less powerful amp was outside its comfort range at that volume....but that does go around the internet a lot.

 

[Findus]

Hi again!

The mixer is for actual mixing purposes: I have 2 turntables. I could bypass the preamp and use the integrated amp as a power amp, but I need the balance feature the mixer is lacking...

So you're saying all the people who swear the LS50 are "power hungry" and need "lots of juice" to "shine" are just basically imagining it? I mean, it could totally be the case - audiophilia often seems to border on magical thinking.

I don't listen to music at a very loud volume, so perhaps I'm good with my 35 watts after all?

 

[Leemix]

The LS50 is pretty low sensitivity so it does need more power to play loud compared to most other speakers. 35w isnt a lot but it depends on how loud you play and how far away you sit.


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[lovinthehd]

Hi again!

The mixer is for actual mixing purposes: I have 2 turntables. I could bypass the preamp and use the integrated amp as a power amp, but I need the balance feature the mixer is lacking...

So you're saying all the people who swear the LS50 are "power hungry" and need "lots of juice" to "shine" are just basically imagining it? I mean, it could totally be the case - audiophilia often seems to border on magical thinking.

I don't listen to music at a very loud volume, so perhaps I'm good with my 35 watts after all?

Hard to know what your use is from where I sit. How loud and at what distance come into play, but if you're not hearing anything bad and it gets sufficiently loud for your purposes I think you're likely fine. Those speakers may work best with amps capable of 4 impedance handling from comments Stereophile made with their measurement/test....don't see a 4 ohm rating for your amp in any case but unless you're pushing the limits of the amp not likely an issue. You might play around with this
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html to get an idea....

Yes, much of audiophilia is fraught with magical thinking

So why do you have the gain on the amps maxed out, does the mixer lack sufficient output?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Hi again!

The mixer is for actual mixing purposes: I have 2 turntables. I could bypass the preamp and use the integrated amp as a power amp, but I need the balance feature the mixer is lacking...

So you're saying all the people who swear the LS50 are "power hungry" and need "lots of juice" to "shine" are just basically imagining it? I mean, it could totally be the case - audiophilia often seems to border on magical thinking.

I don't listen to music at a very loud volume, so perhaps I'm good with my 35 watts after all?

In essence, yes, they are imagining things. Audio is like that.
If your Rotel 35 Watt amp is sufficient to drive the speakers to your loudness level, then a 100 Watt amp will do the same level with the same amount of power from both amps. The position of the volume control is not an indicator whether one is more powerful or not. And, using that mixer may also skew things and impressions.
Speaker hunger is one of those nebulous terms. They have sensitivity, how much power is needed based on this sensitivity to be so loud. If you use a 1000W amp the speaker will desire the same amount of power from that amp as the the Rotel to be the same volume level.

 

[PENG]

Hi again!

The mixer is for actual mixing purposes: I have 2 turntables. I could bypass the preamp and use the integrated amp as a power amp, but I need the balance feature the mixer is lacking...

So you're saying all the people who swear the LS50 are "power hungry" and need "lots of juice" to "shine" are just basically imagining it? I mean, it could totally be the case - audiophilia often seems to border on magical thinking.

I don't listen to music at a very loud volume, so perhaps I'm good with my 35 watts after all?

It depends on many things such as:

- your listening habits, e.g. how loud you listen to, types of contents, compressed, lossless, lossy etc.
- your distance from the speakers, even 20 W would be plenty for the LS50 for desktop applications.

When my LS50s were in my living room, I would likely need benefit from a 100 W rated amp sitting 11 ft if I listen at loud level. Now they are on my desktop so they are about 2 to 2.5 ft from my ears, and my little NAD amp rated 50 W is much more than enough for them.

So to answer you question properly, we need to do how much power you actually would need under your normal listening conditions. You can get a good estimate by using the online calculator linked on post#10 and report back the results.

As to whether people imagine things, yes that happens all the time, but in many cases it is very possible that the LS50s can sound a lot better with a 200 W amp than with a 35 W amp without having to imagine anything.

 

[Findus]

So why do you have the gain on the amps maxed out, does the mixer lack sufficient output?

I always wondered about this, whether you should set volume louder on the mixer and lower on the amp or vice versa. My take has been that the amplifier should be pretty much wide open and volume should be adjusted on the mixer/pre-amp. That's how It works with a power amp + pre-amp, right? Power amp is wide open and you adjust on the pre-amp?

 

[Pogre]

So you're saying all the people who swear the LS50 are "power hungry" and need "lots of juice" to "shine" are just basically imagining it? I mean, it could totally be the case - audiophilia often seems to border on magical thinking.

Oh audiophilia doesn't border on magical thinking... they drew the lines, live inside the magic kingdom and have classes at Hogwarts!

Just for fun, here's an extreme example.

Brilliant Pebbles Advanced Audio Video Tweak

crystals, audio video tweaks, audio crystals

www.machinadynamica.com

That one is so far out there I question if it might be a parody, but the site has been up for years and the testimonials read just like the cable crowd, lol.

 

[lovinthehd]

I always wondered about this, whether you should set volume louder on the mixer and lower on the amp or vice versa. My take has been that the amplifier should be pretty much wide open and volume should be adjusted on the mixer/pre-amp. That's how It works with a power amp + pre-amp, right? Power amp is wide open and you adjust on the pre-amp?

Generally you want just enough pre-amp output to take full advantage of the amp's power; full gain on the amp can amplify inherent noise from the pre-amp unnecessarily. Power amps without gain controls can be an issue for pre-amps with insufficient output to match up to the amp's input sensitivity. I prefer power amps with gain controls myself as simply being more useful with more gear (and somewhat similarily, just get an amp with plenty of power to be more useful with more speakers/situations).

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi folks,

I have 2 Kef LS50 speakers here. I have them connected to a vintage Rotel RA-612 amp (2x35 w @ 8 ohm) which I believe sounds fine, yet I have been curious whether more wattage would improve the sound (as I understand many users believe).

So I asked a friend to lend me his Ecler Pac200 power amp (2x100 w @ 8 ohm), and to my surprise the power amp is not as loud as my Rotel.
On the Rotel, for normal quite loud listening level, the volume meter would be on like 4, while the power amp needs to go to 6-7 for the same volume. How can that be? Is the Rotel listed as much less powerful than it really is, or is the Ecler listed as too powerfull (or is it perhaps defect)?

Thank you for your input!

Findus

You are confusing gain structure and power output.

That vintage Rotel only requires 150 mv for full modulation on the aux input. That would have been common back in the seventies.

That Pac200, is a pro amp. I can't find the spec. for it as the Ecler server is down. However the standard input voltage for modern pro amps is 2.3 volts, for an XLR input. As far as I can tell that unit only has balanced inputs. So you have a massive gain mismatch. In addition how are you connecting to those XLR inputs? Does the sending unit have a balanced output? If not then how did you float your line to go from unbalanced to balanced?

My hunch is that you have a serious case if equipment incompatibility.