Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
I am going back and forth between getting a 124-140wpc Rotel or Parasound vs. a 200-220wpc of the same brand (will be used). It would be powering a 3.1 of Energy C3 bookshelves and a matching center. I know the smaller amp will be plenty, but I will be getting towers in a year or so (I want them now) and don't want to "lack juice" down the road and have to upgrade. The amp will be connected via pre-outs on a Pioneer receiver.

The question......how many of you had floorstanders in the past and felt they were underpowered and upgraded to a 200 +wpc amp? I'll probably end up getting 200wpc so I don't lose money trying to sell something that is underpowered, but the bargain hunter in me is wondering if I'll be ok w/less power. And no, I don't know what kind of towers I'll be getting down the road :(
As Haoleb pointed out already, the difference in the power ratings that you mention isn't going to make much difference. It takes a doubling of power to get just 3 dB louder. In most cases, that isn't really going to be the difference between enough and not enough power.

I would buy the speakers first, and the amplifier later, unless the speakers are a difficult impedance or extremely inefficient. That way, you could try the less expensive amplifier with your speakers, and return it if it isn't powerful enough. And that is assuming that you will need more power than your receiver, which may or may not be the case. With that in mind, you might instead want to budget the entire amount on better speakers, instead of spreading it between speakers and an amplifier. I did something similar to that; I was running a receiver that retailed for about $600 with speakers that retailed for more than $6k, and it sounded great. I replaced the receiver with something that is twice as powerful, and it sounds the same, because I did not need any more power than I already had.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
There is NO such thing as overkill when it comes to power. Everyone says it like it's a bad thing.:confused:
There is no such thing as too much power capability, but there is such a thing as more power than one ever needs. What amount that will be will depend upon many things, such as the efficiency of the speakers and the size of the room, among other things. Any money spent on getting more capability than one ever uses is simply wasted, and could have been spent on other things, like better speakers.
 
C

cfrizz

Senior Audioholic
I keep it nice & simple. I would rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. I don't know or care if the amp is/isn't utilizing all its power. I DO care that my speakers have all the power that they need, when they need it. I do care that my speakers are operating to their full potential.

I KNOW that they weren't when they were just being powered by a receiver.

More power makes a big difference in speakers. Just like more RAM makes a big difference in how your computer operates.

But that more costs money, but to me it is money well spent. And since I will have both the computer & the amp for a long, long time, it is NOT money wasted.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
I definitely noticed the power increase.

Well, okay.... I did go from 10 watts per stereo channel $40 computer speakers to a DIY audio monitor system with 1050 watts per stereo channel, that cost a a little over $2k or so to complete.... so maybe my example is not a good one. :D

Seriously... if all one listens to is modern popular releases.... they won't have much in the way of dynamic requirements.

If you listen to 80's mastered recordings and/or classical/opera/other dynamic well recorded acoustically based stuff, then the dynamic requirements can be staggering in some situations. Besides, if one is willing to go with pro audio amplifiers, then can have all the transparent power that they can handle for very reasonable pricing. The modern day really is a great situation for the audio enthusiast. Now, 10 or more years ago, pro audio amplifiers tended to have not so great noise performance, etc.. But that's just not the case with modern designs - that have exceptional SNR and distortion characteristics, and can handle very demanding loads with ease. Sure, you have to deal with a fan that is a little loud sometimes, but these are easy to swap out for quiet ones, and some of the pro amps have no fan noise to contend with at all.

Now, I have a hard time recommending any home amps today, even from the likes of Emotiva. Not even they can compare with the quality and power you can get for the $$ from pro audio amplifiers.

-Chris
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
and some of the pro amps have no fan noise to contend with at all.

-Chris


Hello Chris, I am interested in trying out a high power pro amp that does not have a fan at all or one that won't turn on unless pushed hard but it won't be. What would you recommend?
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Hello Chris, I am interested in trying out a high power pro amp that does not have a fan at all or one that won't turn on unless pushed hard but it won't be. What would you recommend?
Yamaha P****S series. You have to really push them hard to get the fans to activate - and even then - the are widely variable and start out at an inaudible crawl. I used a pair of 4 Ohm nominal load 2 way speaker rated at 88db/1watt/1meter, at 2 meters, 95dB slow weighted C average, for 25 minutes on the P2500S and the fan never activated. After the end of the test, I did immediately pull the top off the amp and measure the heatsink with an infra thermometer and it was still about 10 degrees under the point where it will activate according to the manual. This was the weakest unit in the line.

I have a P2500S and two P3500S in my main system right now. The fans have never turned on for music program use. I did get the fan in one of them to turn on a very low RPM once when I was doing continuous driver stress power tests for 15 or so minutes at a time, using the amp near it's clipping point in repeated bursts.

You do need a source(or converter box) with standardized pro-audio voltage levels to feed these amplifiers. If you try to turn up the gain on them to compensate for normal unbalanced consumer audio gear audio outputs, I have found that the noise floor can become audible from a 2 or 3 feet away.

-Chris
 
T

typehxr1

Audioholic Intern
Yamaha P****S series. You have to really push them hard to get the fans to activate - and even then - the are widely variable and start out at an inaudible crawl. I used a pair of 4 Ohm nominal load 2 way speaker rated at 88db/1watt/1meter, at 2 meters, 95dB slow weighted C average, for 25 minutes on the P2500S and the fan never activated. After the end of the test, I did immediately pull the top off the amp and measure the heatsink with an infra thermometer and it was still about 10 degrees under the point where it will activate according to the manual. This was the weakest unit in the line.

I have a P2500S and two P3500S in my main system right now. The fans have never turned on for music program use. I did get the fan in one of them to turn on a very low RPM once when I was doing continuous driver stress power tests for 15 or so minutes at a time, using the amp near it's clipping point in repeated bursts.

You do need a source(or converter box) with standardized pro-audio voltage levels to feed these amplifiers. If you try to turn up the gain on them to compensate for normal unbalanced consumer audio gear audio outputs, I have found that the noise floor can become audible from a 2 or 3 feet away.

-Chris
Do pro amps and/or the Yamaha's you own have 12v triggers? I don't want to get up to turn it off and on :)
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
T

typehxr1

Audioholic Intern
You can get this to take care of that issue, provided that the amplifier and your main unit don't draw more than 15 amps:

http://www.smarthomeusa.com/ShopByManufacturer/Bits-Ltd./Item/SCG3/specifications/

I use such an outlet strip to turn my power amp on and off that does not have a 12 volt trigger, and it works quite well.
So how does it work? You leave the amp power button on, but it only really turns on when it senses the receiver is turned on? Does the receiver have to be plugged into this power strip as well? Are there other products like this as well.
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
Niles Audio, speakercraft, russound ect all make signal sensing strips that not only trigger with voltage but other signals like video and audio.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
So how does it work? You leave the amp power button on, but it only really turns on when it senses the receiver is turned on? Does the receiver have to be plugged into this power strip as well? Are there other products like this as well.
You must not have read the info at the link, because they explain it. You plug into the "control" outlet whatever it is that you want to use to turn things on and off with, like your receiver (or whatever). You plug into the "switched" outlets whatever you want to get power whenever the "control" device is turned on. So, you plug the power amp into one of the "switched" outlets, with its power switch on, and plug into the "control" outlet whatever you want to use as the master device to give power to other things. I plug my receiver into the "control" outlet, and my power amp into a "switched" outlet. Whenever my receiver is turned on, it gives power to the power amp, and whenever my receiver is turned off, it cuts power to the power amp. The switchbox has a sensitivity control, because, of course, many devices use a small amount of power even when turned "off". In the case of my receiver, this is so the sensor in my receiver can detect when I use the remote to turn it on.

The price of the device I am recommending is only $30.95 (plus shipping). It is sold to be used with computers, so that you can automatically shut off power to all of the peripheral devices when you shut off the computer, and turn on the power to them whenever you turn the computer on. I use one for that purpose, too.

Like most such things, they are cheaper when they are marketed for use with computers than when they are marketed for use with audio equipment. My guess is that this is due to the fact that many audiophiles will pay crazy amounts for things that sane people would never pay. Surge protectors (this device is also a surge protector) sold for computer use are generally much less expensive than surge protectors sold for use with audio/video gear. I recommend forgetting about surge protectors that are marketed to audiophiles, because they are grossly overpriced. Buy one designed for use with a computer instead. If it is good for a computer, it will be good for a stereo.
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
The fan on the EP2500 is loud as soon as you turn on the amp. Yes, I did the mod, it cost me 8 bucks and 10 minutes of time. I can only hear the fan if I put my ear right up to the amp and the amp stays cool as can be

The amp is awesome, wish I had of known about it before I bought my MPS1.

Yes I use the ART DTI.

Did you do the fan mod on your EP2500? I'm wondering if I would ever even have it loud enough to activate it. My room is like 10x12x18 (duplex). You satisfied w/the amp overall? Do you have the Art Clean Box or cables w/different end (one side rca, the other xlr)?
 
T

typehxr1

Audioholic Intern
You must not have read the info at the link, because they explain it. You plug into the "control" outlet whatever it is that you want to use to turn things on and off with, like your receiver (or whatever). You plug into the "switched" outlets whatever you want to get power whenever the "control" device is turned on. So, you plug the power amp into one of the "switched" outlets, with its power switch on, and plug into the "control" outlet whatever you want to use as the master device to give power to other things. I plug my receiver into the "control" outlet, and my power amp into a "switched" outlet. Whenever my receiver is turned on, it gives power to the power amp, and whenever my receiver is turned off, it cuts power to the power amp. The switchbox has a sensitivity control, because, of course, many devices use a small amount of power even when turned "off". In the case of my receiver, this is so the sensor in my receiver can detect when I use the remote to turn it on.

The price of the device I am recommending is only $30.95 (plus shipping). It is sold to be used with computers, so that you can automatically shut off power to all of the peripheral devices when you shut off the computer, and turn on the power to them whenever you turn the computer on. I use one for that purpose, too.

Like most such things, they are cheaper when they are marketed for use with computers than when they are marketed for use with audio equipment. My guess is that this is due to the fact that many audiophiles will pay crazy amounts for things that sane people would never pay. Surge protectors (this device is also a surge protector) sold for computer use are generally much less expensive than surge protectors sold for use with audio/video gear. I recommend forgetting about surge protectors that are marketed to audiophiles, because they are grossly overpriced. Buy one designed for use with a computer instead. If it is good for a computer, it will be good for a stereo.
I did, but you explained it much better. Thank you
 
T

typehxr1

Audioholic Intern
The fan on the EP2500 is loud as soon as you turn on the amp. Yes, I did the mod, it cost me 8 bucks and 10 minutes of time. I can only hear the fan if I put my ear right up to the amp and the amp stays cool as can be

The amp is awesome, wish I had of known about it before I bought my MPS1.

Yes I use the ART DTI.
Excellent and thank you for sharing. I'll do a search for the fan mod as I'm sure there is a thread for it somewhere in here. Any other necessary modifications?
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
I did, but you explained it much better. Thank you
You are welcome.

With audio/video accessories, it is pretty much always a good idea to see if the same thing is marketed to another group, because a lot of companies are happy to gouge audiophiles, who often confuse price and quality, and are often ready to part with their money in frivolous ways.

The obscene prices of HDMI cables at most stores is another example of this, where stores sell $5 worth of cable for $80 or more (sometimes, much more), except that one simply finds a reasonable price online marketed for audio/video use, since that is what HDMI cables are for.
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
Mike C has the fan mod instructions along with pictures in his signature.

I would just figure out a way to turn it on like described a couple of ways above, use an ART CLEANBOX and get ZZOUNDS to price match the cheapest deal you can find on it. I paid $290 for mine.
Excellent and thank you for sharing. I'll do a search for the fan mod as I'm sure there is a thread for it somewhere in here. Any other necessary modifications?
 

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