Amplifier recommendations

[ryanosaur]

hi, i'm new to this site, and looking for some AMP recommendations As Well. Sorry not trying to hijack your Thread.
currently have:

If I remember correctly, only the built in "Sub" is powered by the amplifier in your boxes... you still need to juice your towers: looks like 20-400wRms is what is recommended. Looks like the same for your center channel, too. For the price, I like emotiva. If you wanna do monoblocks, I like outlaw 2200s, and you can get good package pricing on multiples of those.
A bunch of the other cats here will have a lot more experience with other amp brands and might be able to recommend some other brands if needed.

 

[ryanosaur]

I was told today that you need a AV processor if you use a amp. can anyone tell me if this is true. he stated that the trigger doesn't have enough volts to keep the amp watts going full.
I always just thought that the trigger was used to turn the amp on nothing else

Hi Noclue. Your instinct is correct about the trigger. It does not power the amp. What @lovinthehd said is the more pertinent issue you must investigate:

...the more relevant spec is if the avr's pre-outs supply sufficient voltage for the amp's sensitivity (1.95V per the ATI AT6000 page).

Any receiver, stereo or av, that has pre-outs can plug into an amplifier, and of course any seperates (pre-amp, surround processor) will require a separate amp for driving any passive speakers. If using active speakers, you would connect those to the pre-outs also.
Hope this helps.

 

[lovinthehd]

Hi Noclue. Your instinct is correct about the trigger. It does not power the amp. What @lovinthehd said is the more pertinent issue you must investigate:
Any receiver, stereo or av, that has pre-outs can plug into an amplifier, and of course any seperates (pre-amp, surround processor) will require a separate amp for driving any passive speakers. If using active speakers, you would connect those to the pre-outs also.
Hope this helps.

As @PENG mentioned, he had a recent issue with sensitivity specs for an amp, and finding comprehensive pre-out output details can be difficult too. A call to the amp manufacturer in Peng's case produced results, I wouldn't be so hopeful the typical avr customer service rep has a clue on what the pre-out level range is (usually there's just a nominal output figure in the manual/specs). 1.95V is on the upper range so it might be nice for ATI to confirm just what the spec represents, particularly if balanced vs unbalanced.

 

[Deftechforever]

If I remember correctly, only the built in "Sub" is powered by the amplifier in your boxes... you still need to juice your towers: looks like 20-400wRms is what is recommended. Looks like the same for your center channel, too. For the price, I like emotiva. If you wanna do monoblocks, I like outlaw 2200s, and you can get good package pricing on multiples of those.
A bunch of the other cats here will have a lot more experience with other amp brands and might be able to recommend some other brands if needed.

thanks for the reply, i'll look into the Outlaw 2200.

 

[Danzilla31]

Having just purchase an low cost (relatively speaking) mono block and learned something new, I would like to add that one should be a little more cautious about the manufacturer's specified pre-out voltage. Call their tech support about it, and/or search for reviews that included bench test measurements. Like the power consumption thing, they don't typically include much details about the test/measured conditions.

Hey PENG sorry to hear about the issue you had if I may ask do you mind briefly relating what happened and what you learned? Hopefully you got it sorted out.

 

[PENG]

Hey PENG sorry to hear about the issue you had if I may ask do you mind briefly relating what happened and what you learned? Hopefully you got it sorted out.

No real issues actually, only that I found their published sensitivity specs not making total sense. So I called their tech support and got more credible numbers (I posted similar info before in the M2200 thread) that are still not quite the same (likely due to different measuring methods/equipment) as what I found in my own measurements but close enough. I don't think that is an issue at all for the vast majority of potential buyers. I shouldn't have said anything about pre-out, but that is obviously a preamp spec that has to be considered along with the intended matching power amp's sensitivity specs.

 

[PENG]

i love the way my system sounds, adding 4 ceiling speakers in the next 6 months, and looking to good with an External AMP.
i'm currently powering all the Speakers with a Pioneer SC-27 140W X7, all channels Driven.
i know my front 3 Speakers have a built in AMP, and don't require a lot of power, but still want to go Separates. will be replacing the receiver as well.
looking for 11 channels total, considering 3 Emotiva AMPs. XPA-3 for the 3 fronts, and 2 XPA-4 for the Surrounds and Ceilings.
any thoughts or recommendations?
Thanks

For thoughts, I would say it sounds strange that you "love the way.." your system sound with a SC-27, yet you want to replace it with a new receiver plus 3 power amps. If the main reasons are to go with 11 channels, presumably for the newer surround modes, all you need is a current flag ship AVR or any 2016-2018 AVR that can process 11 channels and have pre-outs that can drive your target 3-5 channel power amps. In that scenario, you should only need a 5 channel power amp (3 channel if you opt for the Denon flag ships) because the AVR should be able to drive the remaining surround channels easily. The 3 XPA amps option will certainly provide more power to the surround channels if needed, but that power reserve will likely be nothing more than a few kg of gold under the bed of a mult-billionaire.

For recommendations, I would suggest you use an online calculator to figure how much power you really need for the speakers in your room, and go from there. The one linked below is a popular one around here.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

 

[PENG]

Hey PENG sorry to hear about the issue you had if I may ask do you mind briefly relating what happened and what you learned? Hopefully you got it sorted out.

Sorry, just noticed I missed some key points in my first response, please refer to my edited post#26.

 

[ryanosaur]

For thoughts, I would say it sounds strange that you "love the way.." your system sound with a SC-27, yet you want to replace it with a new receiver plus 2 power amps. If the main reasons are to go with 11 channels, presumably for the newer surround modes, all you need is a current flag ship AVR or any 2016-2018 AVR that can process 11 channels and have pre-outs that can drive your target 3-5 channel power amps. In that scenario, you should only need a 5 channel power amp (3 channel if you opt for the Denon flag ships) because the AVR should be able to drive the remaining surround channels easily. The 3 XPA amp option will certainly provide more power to the surround channels if needed, but that power reserve will likely be nothing more than a few kg of gold under the bed of a mult-billionaire.

For recommendations, I would suggest you use an online calculator to figure how much power you really need for the speakers in your room, and go from there. The one linked below is a popular one around here.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

@Deftechforever , gotta say I do agree with @PENG here. Depending on the final rig you put together, consider that for a 90dB sensitivity speaker, 64W is going to be giving you 108dB output. I wouldn't think you need that kind of juice to run most Atmos speakers. Even the XPA-4 is only gonna give you the potential of 115db. I've been convinced that having some dynamic headroom for your main channels is vital, but how much do you really need for atmos/effect speakers? I know my Marantz will comfortable run my surrounds if I put my front 3 on an external Amp.
Unless you go the way of all separates and get a pre-pro, all you need on an AVR is assignable channels for the heights.
Also consider (assuming you go full into separates and are on a budget), there are some other good amps that can deliver the power you need for half the cost of that XPA-4: Outlaw Model 5000 $649; Emotiva Bas-X A5175 $799 (two quick examples). Either should give you ample power for your needs.

 

[Deftechforever]

For thoughts, I would say it sounds strange that you "love the way.." your system sound with a SC-27, yet you want to replace it with a new receiver plus 3 power amps. If the main reasons are to go with 11 channels, presumably for the newer surround modes, all you need is a current flag ship AVR or any 2016-2018 AVR that can process 11 channels and have pre-outs that can drive your target 3-5 channel power amps. In that scenario, you should only need a 5 channel power amp (3 channel if you opt for the Denon flag ships) because the AVR should be able to drive the remaining surround channels easily. The 3 XPA amps option will certainly provide more power to the surround channels if needed, but that power reserve will likely be nothing more than a few kg of gold under the bed of a mult-billionaire.

For recommendations, I would suggest you use an online calculator to figure how much power you really need for the speakers in your room, and go from there. The one linked below is a popular one around here.


Thanks for the Reply, and sorry for the delay in responding.
let me rephrase, I love the way my system sounds but want to upgrade to Atmos, and have always wanted to go with separates.
i'm looking to buy some amplifiers that will last me a very long time.
thanks for the link, but i'm looking to buy more wattage than needed because my speakers are already 15 Years old and feel like once i upgrade all my gear might get an itch to upgrade my speakers to, and don't want to be restricted due to power.
figure it be nice to have few kg of gold under the bed of a mult-billionaire in case you might need it someday

 

[Deftechforever]

@Deftechforever , gotta say I do agree with @PENG here. Depending on the final rig you put together, consider that for a 90dB sensitivity speaker, 64W is going to be giving you 108dB output. I wouldn't think you need that kind of juice to run most Atmos speakers. Even the XPA-4 is only gonna give you the potential of 115db. I've been convinced that having some dynamic headroom for your main channels is vital, but how much do you really need for atmos/effect speakers? I know my Marantz will comfortable run my surrounds if I put my front 3 on an external Amp.
Unless you go the way of all separates and get a pre-pro, all you need on an AVR is assignable channels for the heights.
Also consider (assuming you go full into separates and are on a budget), there are some other good amps that can deliver the power you need for half the cost of that XPA-4: Outlaw Model 5000 $649; Emotiva Bas-X A5175 $799 (two quick examples). Either should give you ample power for your needs.

thanks Ryanosaur, going to look into Emotiva Bas-X A5175 for the Atmos, i think you are right and don't need that much power for the effect speakers.

 

[PENG]

thanks Ryanosaur, going to look into Emotiva Bas-X A5175 for the Atmos, i think you are right and don't need that much power for the effect speakers.

I suggested you use the calculator to find out what you need, and go from there, that is not meant to discourage you from going for a powerful amp. For example, if the calculator shows you need 150 WPC, then I may suggest you go for 300 WPC. Otherwise you may end up falling short.. The Bas-XA5175 is not much more powerful than some AVR, in fact there quite a few AVRs that bench tested better than 175 W/225 W 8/4 ohms but again, if you only need 100 W to reach reference level from where you sit, then it is adequate.

 

[ryanosaur]

Again, PENG has the right of it. I'm not trying to sell you on anything, just saying there are options aplenty that can work! @PENG has helped me out a lot! (Thank you!) We CANNOT tell you what to buy because we don't know your space, have your ears, etc. All I want to do is share some of my experience to possibly help you, much as Peng and so many others have done for me.

Hell, I'm still trying to get up the gumption to find a good refresher book on basic electricity. Then the speaker design cookbook. I'm hungry for knowledge, the kind that's gonna feed me and this crazy choice of a hobby-way-of-life!

Learn about the Speakers and other gear you have. Figure out what makes sense as amendments to it. If you need a new AVR, find the one thats right for you over five years. Find the Atmos speakers that are right for 20 years. If you need an Amp, decide if your'e just buying that cos you think you want it or if you really need it, and if you can use it still 5 yrs on.

I just listened to some B&W speakers that probably weren't fed enough juice. Shame. Now my first impression of a reputable and highly regarded speaker company is, "lame." Though they might not even be the right speakers for me, I do wanna hear them again with a proper rig feeding them! How else am I gonna learn? I also heard some DT9080s. Again, not for me. They sounded way better than the B&Ws, but for me... scattered; no soundstage because of the bipole and atmos all built in to it. Dig?

I'm having fun in my speaker hunt! I'm updating at: Salk, Philharmonic, Ascend.... what else?

Cheers, and Happy Hunting!

 

[Gilbert Lopez]

Hi guys,

I've decided to get the upgraded Tekton Design Double Impact Font L/R along with the Wide Center. I will be relegating my Tekton Pendragons to Rear Surround duty. I would like to know what amplifier you guys recommend for a budget of around $4k to $5k? I was thinking of getting a ATI Signature Series AT6003 or Parasound A31 to power the Front L/R and Center.

I own the Parasound A51 and A31. They are both fantastic amps! You can’t go wrong with Parasound!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No real issues actually, only that I found their published sensitivity specs not making total sense. So I called their tech support and got more credible numbers (I posted similar info before in the M2200 thread) that are still not quite the same (likely due to different measuring methods/equipment) as what I found in my own measurements but close enough. I don't think that is an issue at all for the vast majority of potential buyers.

Give us an example of a potential issue.

 

[PENG]

Give us an example of a potential issue.

Of course, here's an example:

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/2200.html

The specifications for the gain/sensitivity are stated as below:
Gain: +27dB for full output
(1.7V XLR input sensitivity)
(850mV RCA input sensitivity)

Two mistakes for sure. 1)The gain is actually higher, more like 28 dB. 2)The RCA input sensitivity is much lower, more like 1.6 V, not 850 mV. I don't know what it is for XLR as I have not tried it yet.

Now, let's pretend you are shopping for an amplifier, and figure that you need a power amp that has relative high sensitivity of say 1 V, using RCA inputs because you plan on using an AVR that has relatively low pre-out voltage, such as the Yamaha RX-A860 that Gene tested last year.

So when you see Outlaw's published spec, you may simply assume the "850 mV RCA input sensitivity" is more than enough, when in fact with 850 mV you will get less than 60 W from the M2200, and with 1.2 V the output will be about 114 W. To get the specified rated output of 200 W into 8 ohms, you need about 1.6 V.

They are not the only one who don't seem to pay enough attention to the accuracy of published specs, Denon, Marantz, Parasound, and someone just reported the Monolith too (regarding the transformer VA specs) also have inaccurate or at least confusing or contradicting data on their website as well. If you want another example, take a look of the THD figures Denon provided on their website, for the X4400H (in the comparison table, it stated 0.08% 105 W in one place and 0.05% 125 W in another. We both know the correct figure is 0.05% as that seems to be their standard for the 4000 series and above models, obviously not everyone knows that, or cares about those things. That's why I stated " I don't think that is an issue at all for the vast majority of potential buyers".

 

[Verdinut]

Of course, here's an example:

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/2200.html

The specifications for the gain/sensitivity are stated as below:
Gain: +27dB for full output
(1.7V XLR input sensitivity)
(850mV RCA input sensitivity)

Two mistakes for sure. 1)The gain is actually higher, more like 28 dB. 2)The RCA input sensitivity is much lower, more like 1.6 V, not 850 mV. I don't know what it is for XLR as I have not tried it yet.

Now, let's pretend you are shopping for an amplifier, and figure that you need a power amp that has relative high sensitivity of say 1 V, using RCA inputs because you plan on using an AVR that has relatively low pre-out voltage, such as the Yamaha RX-A860 that Gene tested last year.

So when you see Outlaw's published spec, you may simply assume the "850 mV RCA input sensitivity" is more than enough, when in fact with 850 mV you will get less than 60 W from the M2200, and with 1.2 V the output will be about 114 W. To get the specified rated output of 200 W into 8 ohms, you need about 1.6 V.

They are not the only one who don't seem to pay enough attention to the accuracy of published specs, Denon, Marantz, Parasound, and someone just reported the Monolith too (regarding the transformer VA specs) also have inaccurate or at least confusing or contradicting data on their website as well. If you want another example, take a look of the THD figures Denon provided on their website, for the X4400H (in the comparison table, it stated 0.08% 105 W in one place and 0.05% 125 W in another. We both know the correct figure is 0.05% as that seems to be their standard for the 4000 series and above models, obviously not everyone knows that, or cares about those things. That's why I stated " I don't think that is an issue at all for the vast majority of potential buyers".

Fifty, sixty years ago, serious hi-fi gear manufacturers were supplying accurate info in their publicity. Now, manufacturers figure that the majority of people who buy their products know bugger all about hi-fi and audio principles, so they publish incomplete inaccurate and bullshit info, since there is no enforceable law against that kind of dishonesty.

In comparison, pro audio manufacturers usually provide more accurate and detailed specs on their products, because they know that most prospective buyers are knowledgeable, require exact info and won't accept bullshit.

 

[Cjamrr]

My neighbor has the Tekton Design Enzo XL speakers, he is selling all his amps online (and to me of course, especially the older rebuilt Carver Amp for my Focals, which honestly sounded better than the new Anthem MCA 325 I’m demoing in my home now) because his Tekton’s are 96.5db/W/m. His 400w 2 channel Carver amp hardly makes a difference on his Tektons, but on my Focal it made a noticeable difference, but not by much compared to just running avr without an amp.
(Bear in mind, I am a newbie and learning daily addictively.)

 

[PENG]

(Bear in mind, I am a newbie and learning daily addictively.)

I guess you will eventually learn that amps don't, and shouldn't make your system sound much different once you get pass the point of diminishing return. The question is how long it will take and how much you would have spent by then, on various amps. There are some exceptions, such as some (not all) tube amps and amps like Carver's. Apparently (I am not 100% sure), Mr. Carver might have designed certain amps to have a "sound signature". In true, those amps may not be totally transparent, and whether they would sound better or worse than a transparent amp such as Anthem's, will depend on the individual's taste, and/or compatibility (matching?) with the individual's equipment (preamp, speakers etc.).

 

[Cjamrr]

The Amp is the Carver M-1.0t mk II. Diminishing return your referring to means? ( I’m guessing you mean, a speaker can reach it max sound characteristics).
Also what is transparent?
I used a switch box for 2 Amps to my speakers.
I heard the Carver, sounded more live. Where Anthem was slightly congested sounding.