Amp pricing & diminishing returns / what's your take?

[pearsall001]

I've been looking at a few amps for my system to run in both HT & 2 channel listening. My source is a Consonance Droplet5.0 tube output player, NAD T773 receiver as pre/pro, AADaudio 2001 monitors (8ohm, 86db sensitivity) The amps in question are: Mac MC252, Bryston 4BSST, NuForce ref 9, Rotel RB1090. Prices new are: Mac-$3800, Bry-$2800, NuForce-$2500, Rot-$1800. As you can see that's a pretty big pricing gap. My question is about the sonic qualities between them & if some really warrant the extra coin? For example the diff in price between the Mac & Rot is $2000. Does the Mac bring $2000 more musicality to the table than the Rot or even the others? At what point does the scale start to tip downwards in regards to cost/performance ratio? I haven't included Krell, Classe, ML because I believe the scale really starts to dip downwards with them. Maybe I'm off base here but I am open for suggestions & your comments. Warranties (although important) re-sale pricing, braging rights etc. would not be a deciding factor in my purchase. I really don't like buying used either, I prefer new.
Thanks

 

[mike c]

money is such a relative thing. a normal guy would say "hell no". a loaded guy will drop that cash in an instant. no one can put a price on "improvement" in SQ.

on the other hand, I thought you said your behringer a500 was already good enough for you. if you still have that line of thought ... check out Crown K2, same taste but more filling!

 

[tbewick]

Most amps should perform very well and therefore it should be the loudspeakers that limit performance. The simple reason why a speaker will distort more than an amplifier is that an amplifier is wholly electronic and a speaker has to convert electrical energy into sound energy (it is a transducer).

Quite honestly, I think that reviews can be quite unhelpful as they can lead you to the impression that one amplifier is more musical than another. How can this be the case?

I think the answer to your question is to go along with system matching. If you have a pair of very expensive studio monitor speakers which are rated up to 500 watts, then it makes sense that you would want a Krell amplifier, since cost is probably not an issue. I don't think that at normal listening volumes in a normal home a Krell amp will sound noticeably better than a much cheaper amplifier. If however you have full acoustical treatment (after all the room is, in a way, a very important system component) and a large listening room, then such a system will probably sound much better at higher volumes than a system costing considering considerably less.

That might be why some speaker manufacturers seemingly rant on about how 'bad' amplifiers are, or that amplifier specifications are misleading. They can and need to test their speakers at very high volumes, which would bring a normal, relatively inexpensive amplifier to its knees.

The only type of amplifier distortion I can think of that might be problematic is crossover distortion. Crossover distortion it is not proportional to input signal level. The fact that I haven't heard much about crossover distortion, other than a comment about it on the B&W website, would lead me to believe that it isn't a big issue.

 

[jaxvon]

I personally think that the price of the Bryston is because of the superior build quality. You should note that they guarantee their product for a full 20 years. The 20 year warranty is also transferable. I don't know of any other electronics company that believes in their products that much. Furthermore, every Bryston amp is torture-tested for at least 100 hours before it leaves the factory, so any amp with defects will be found and fixed before it ships out. Add that to the very impressive specs on the Bryston and I think it's the best buy.

 

[howie85]

it is only money after all...right??

 

[ardo]

Hi Persall001
Having been in audio equipment for over 30 years, and having owned expensive units and also more modest units, I have to say that most of the time, you get what you pay for. Basically the Krell, Classé, Bryston Mark Levinson Audio Research are superior electronics mechanically electrically and sonically, that will run forever without requiring any repairs, the best value beeing Bryston (canadian). I still own a Luxman 5M21 laboratory reference that never needed service in 30 years. Do not ever forget that your audio system, is as strong as its weakest gear. As already said, the audio source and the speakers, also plays a very important in audio reproduction.

___________________________________________________________
Oracle delphi II turntable
Syrinx PU3 tonearm + Koetsu Black moving coil phono cartridge
Sony 777ES cd player (37 pounds)
Bryston 4B amp + preamp model 12
Thiel 03A speakers
audio room (dedicated), analyzed and corrected for standing waves

 

[gcmarshall]

.....I have to say that most of the time, you get what you pay for.

that being said, you do not have to pay McIntosh, Krell, Classe prices to get something that will be exceptionally pleasing to your ears and that may very well last you a lifetime.

i recently bought a B&K 200.2 S2 for use in a shared HT and music room and i am very pleased with it. it cost $1500 US and is rated at 225 wpcx2 into 8 ohms. i would feel really guilty if i had paid twice as much for a mcintosh brand name and marginally improved performance. be careful with the law of diminishig returns or you may find that it becomes the law of the diminishing bank account.

 

[pearsall001]

mike c

Not to worry, the A500's aren't going anywhere. However being the kind of guy I am I'm always looking for the holy grail so to speak (within my budget) I would love to give other amps a try especially the NuForce 9. I've read so much positive feedback on them that they just might come home for a 30 day trial. Keep in mind that a new amp would have to be so musically superior to my ears to warrant the purchase. If I did happen to be smitten by the performance of another amp I would still have 2 killer amps for my center & surrounds. That would then free up my NAD T773 receiver, which I could then sell & start all over again looking for a new processor. This crazy circle is never completed.
Happy listening to all!!

 

[highfihoney]

amps like adcom, b&k, parasound, crown k2 ect are nice amps that offer good value & good power but they are not in the same league with any of the high end manufacturers you are looking at,not a bad thing but it is the way it is.

most people just look at the price tag then decide that you can get the same level of performance at a fraction of the cost without ever understanding why these amps give a better performance that can be heard in your home or they decide that any benifits from owning such high priced gear cant be heard & that is not true,here comes the dbt link

i owned 3 mc252's & i loved them, distortion free power no matter the volume,the mc252 is also capable of peaks of over 1,000 watts with zero distortion & zero clipping,the head room on these amps has to be heard to be believed (perfect for inefficient speakers)the other amps being reccomended will not come close to giving the same performance or have the same resale percentage 10 years from now.

the big trick to making high end gear affordable is to NEVER EVER BUY NEW GEAR,i know you dont like to buy used but may i ask why,(warranty issues)you do not have to pay $3,800 for an mc252,not even close,let some other guy with upgrade fever take the hit when he sells you his 6 month old mc252 for $2,800(going rate on audiogon) .

 

[rollinrocker]

The more revealing your source components and speakers the bigger the differences to be heard in amplifiers.

 

[mulester7]

The more revealing your source components and speakers the bigger the differences to be heard in amplifiers.

.....I think I'm gonna' cry, haha....absolutely, I agree......

 

[ardo]

Hi All
most people just look at the price tag then decide that you can get the same level of performance at a fraction of the cost without ever understanding why these amps give a better performance that can be heard in your home or they decide that any benifits from owning such high priced gear cant be heard & that is not true,here comes the dbt link
Theses are great fallacies, because great audio gear ($$$$) are communicating music, in such a way, that you are forgetting they are there in your living room or audio room. they give you a sense of true musicians beeing actually playing for you not through a stereo system. they move you from your chair to the concert hall or the music rock.In fact they do that disc after discs, for more than twenty years. In fact they fool your brain. I would summarized them, like true love compared to lust... For all real music lovers, who have the chance to own them, you are blessed...

 

[mtrycrafts]

it is only money after all...right??

Yes, but after such a purchase, you will have a lot less

 

[mtrycrafts]

Not to worry, the A500's aren't going anywhere. However being the kind of guy I am I'm always looking for the holy grail so to speak (within my budget) I would love to give other amps a try especially the NuForce 9. I've read so much positive feedback on them that they just might come home for a 30 day trial. Keep in mind that a new amp would have to be so musically superior to my ears to warrant the purchase. If I did happen to be smitten by the performance of another amp I would still have 2 killer amps for my center & surrounds. That would then free up my NAD T773 receiver, which I could then sell & start all over again looking for a new processor. This crazy circle is never completed.
Happy listening to all!!

If you want to try and compare, you owe it to yourself to set up a proper DBT, levels matched, random switching, etc, and see how well you can guess

If you operate within the design limits, the odds are against you and past 30+ years of such testing supports this

 

[tbewick]

In response to what hifihoney was saying, I have tried out comparing a top-end 1970's Pioneer integrated amp with my current mid-range Denon, and there didn't seem to be any obvious difference. The highly compressed Smashing Pumpkins albums sounded grating on both amps.

I'd also be a bit cautious of buying old second hand amps, as the components, however good quality they are, do deteriorate with time. I think that's what's wrong with my dad's old, dead Quad 303 - the chemicals in the capacitors have dried up. Another thing that non-digital amps/pre-amps may have trouble with is all the years worth of dirt and grime getting into the knobs and switches.

 

[sts9fan]

If you are looking at Nuforce you should also give the CI Audio D200 monoblocks a look. They are based on the Hyperx UCD modules and are great. A buddy of mine as a pair and they blew me away..

 

[highfihoney]

In response to what hifihoney was saying, I have tried out comparing a top-end 1970's Pioneer integrated amp with my current mid-range Denon, and there didn't seem to be any obvious difference.

im very suprised that your denon did not perform or sound better than the 30 year old pioneer,vintage amplifiers need to be brought back to life slowly using a variac then they need to go to a tech for a complete tune up which usually requires the replacement of many parts to bring the amp back into spec.

you mentioned your fathers quad as an example,a fine example i might add,we see all the time where people take vintage high end gear & compare it to modern gear & use the outcome as a basis for their decision,its very hard to be sure that vintage gear is running at its best unless its been gone over by a tech who is skilled in restoring vintage amps back to factory specs.

there may be no differences to be heard with either amp you tried but unless the vintage gear is 100 % up to spec there could be a worn part causing a problem.

 

[tbewick]

'im very suprised that your denon did not perform or sound better than the 30 year old pioneer,vintage amplifiers need to be brought back to life slowly using a variac then they need to go to a tech for a complete tune up which usually requires the replacement of many parts to bring the amp back into spec.'

My comparision wasn't very scientific and I can't say that I compared them at very high volumes. I have a hard time accepting that amps will sound different at lower volumes, because you typically only need a few watts to get up to ~90 dB, which is very loud in a typical home. With many recordings, especially highly compressed modern pop, such a volume would be unbearably loud.

At higher volumes than this, I can see why you might want a better amp. A while back I saw a pair of KEF 105 Mark 2's up of sale on ebay which unfortunately I didn't get. These required 25 watts to get up to 96 dB compared to my current Tannoys needing only ~8 watts. To get up to reference level playback with those KEF's you'd probably need a very capable amp.

 

[mtrycrafts]

The highly compressed Smashing Pumpkins albums sounded grating on both amps.

Lol. How true


I'd also be a bit cautious of buying old second hand amps, as the components, however good quality they are, do deteriorate with time. I think that's what's wrong with my dad's old, dead Quad 303 - the chemicals in the capacitors have dried up. Another thing that non-digital amps/pre-amps may have trouble with is all the years worth of dirt and grime getting into the knobs and switches.

Great points that we forget about at times.

 

[Reorx]

amps like adcom, b&k, parasound, crown k2 ect are nice amps that offer good value & good power but they are not in the same league with any of the high end manufacturers you are looking at,not a bad thing but it is the way it is.

What brands do you consider High end? Just curious, because I've been to large concerts (250k+), in highend movie theaters, in University classrooms....and have seen Crown Amps in all of them, with others occasionally mixed in.
But then again, maybe you are just talking about high end amps for consumers, not at the professional quality level.

For me, I'd rather have a professional amp, then a consumer amp. The pro-level seems to be less $/watt, yet equal or better quality.

As for the thread topic, I buy used from friends, or ebay. on ebay under "musical instruments / amps / poweramps"

Reorx