amp or eceiver

[fastfreddy]

hi this question i am sure has been asked before but here goes.
presently run a denonn 3805 an paradigm ref 40s as fronts. will a dedicated amp make the 40s sound any better.

thanks in advance.

 

[j_garcia]

If it sounds like your sound doesn't get any louder when you turn it up or you hear it sounding "unclear" at the levels that you listen at, then yes. If it doesn't sound like your seutp is struggling, then no. It won't make them sound "better" in either case, just louder.

 

[slipperybidness]

Perhaps this can be somewhat subjective. The answer that you got is going to be the general answer that everyone on this site will post.

I have a pretty good pioneer elite reciever. I added an outboard amp, I definitely noticed some improvements. The main thing that I noticed is that the noise floor is lower. The quiet parts are quieter than they were before.

Was it a huge improvement? No. Was it worth the money? Probably not for most people. Am I happy with it? Yes.

 

[j_garcia]

Having enough headroom to allow the speakers to play cleanly at higher levels is often what many would call "better" sounding. That's what I mean by saying just louder. Many think that adding an amp will change the sound of their speakers dramatically, and that is usually not the case.

I push my system pretty hard at times, I have a relatively large room, and I have all 4ohm speakers so I currently run all of them on external amps. The difference is easily noticeable, but both of my amps also have more power than my receiver, the front 3 by a large margin @ 4 Ohms.

The Studio 40s can be a demanding load and I do feel an amp is likely to be a benefit over most receiver's built in amps, but it isn't going to transform them into a different speaker.

 

[agarwalro]

Which version of 40s?

Not sure if this is valid for other versions, but, going with the measurements in this review of the 40v2, the impedance goes from 5 to 9 ohms.

I say try a 200W amp and see what that gives you.

 

[PENG]

I ran my veritas (88dB/W/M) minimum 4ohms for a while with just the 3805, and then with a 200WPC amp and a 300WPC amp; and did some comparisons including taking current and voltage measurements. Then I did the same with my 4308 and then with my current AV7005. I can tell you I feel my speakers sound better/louder/quieter with the amps but I won't because I know I am not sure about that but I am sure I will fail any sort of blind tests let alone double blind tests.

If you want to feel good about having an amp, more headroom, and/or have a larger room (>2500 cu.ft.) go get an amp and don't look back. Or if you have a smaller room and believe in science and engineering, then be happy with the 3805. No the Studio 40's are not difficult to drive, Paradigm tech support will tell you that, and they cannot play loud anyway. So if you give it 200 to 300W it may sound better depending on the types of music you play and even then it will only be for some peak durations. The fact is, they are rated for only 140W maximum input power, not continuous. Their estimated in room sensitivity is 92 dB 8 ohm compatible whatever Paradigm intended that to mean, presumably per watt per meter so again, relatively speaking they are not hard to drive at all but they are not dsigned/built to play loud given that they are small and cannot handle much power anyway.

Studio 40 - Welcome to the New Official Paradigm® Website.

Bottom line, is, no it won't sound noticeably better in a blind listening session with and without an external amp but more power never hurts. If you want to have more noticeably SQ improvement, trade up to the Studio 60 V5. I can assure you that the 3805+Studio 60 V5 will sound much better than a 300WPC amp+Studio 40 V3, no doubt in my mind about that at all. Electronics are relatively cheap so people are tempted to take the short cut, get a powerful amp and convince themselves their speakers now sound good, when in fact they should bite the bullet and upgrade their speakers if they are serious about better sound quality.

 

[j_garcia]

I auditioned the v3 40s in my system for about a week and a half just running off the receiver. My receiver didn't have any problem driving them.

 

[Pyrrho]

I auditioned the v3 40s in my system for about a week and a half just running off the receiver. My receiver didn't have any problem driving them.

That is what I would expect to generally be the case. We are not discussing terribly inefficient speakers, and if the minimum impedance is 5 ohms, it should not be too difficult to drive them loud enough for most people with about anything halfway decent.

In general, an external amplifier is only useful when driving difficult speakers, or for someone who wants to play them very, very loud. And in the latter case, with most speakers, the difference in loudness is not likely to be very great, as it takes a doubling of power to just get a 3dB increase, so the power difference must be very great to make a great difference, and the speakers need to be able to handle the power. So typically, if one adds a power amplifier, one pays quite a bit for a slight ability to play louder rather than making any dramatic difference.

 

[j_garcia]

I occasionally listen very loud My XPA-3 is right around twice the power of my receiver - receiver is 120W@8ohms, and likely only about 160-170 or so @4ohms (Marantz only show ratings to 6 Ohms). The XPA-3 is rated at 300W@4Ohms. At typical listening levels there's no difference, but when I crank it, the difference is obvious.

 

[psbfan9]

With 'most' receivers, the wattage is assumed. My receiver is rated at 100w per channel, all channels driven but that's not a consistent 100w full time output. So wouldn't the sound be better having a continuous and constant wattage output?

 

[Hi-Fi Novice]

Power Hungry

That is what I would expect to generally be the case. We are not discussing terribly inefficient speakers, and if the minimum impedance is 5 ohms, it should not be too difficult to drive them loud enough for most people with about anything halfway decent.

In general, an external amplifier is only useful when driving difficult speakers, or for someone who wants to play them very, very loud. And in the latter case, with most speakers, the difference in loudness is not likely to be very great, as it takes a doubling of power to just get a 3dB increase, so the power difference must be very great to make a great difference, and the speakers need to be able to handle the power. So typically, if one adds a power amplifier, one pays quite a bit for a slight ability to play louder rather than making any dramatic difference.

This (among a few other replies) answers a question I posed on another AV Forum quite clearly. My question was simple; "would adding a (relatively) middle of the road power amplifier to my Pioneer Elite 52TX do me much good?" So I appreciate you saving me $300 + on a Kenwood Basic or Onkyo Power amp that wouldn't have done much to enhance my listening experience. The only other question is; would adding a power amp serve to extend the life of my receiver?

 

[j_garcia]

This (among a few other replies) answers a question I posed on another AV Forum quite clearly. My question was simple; "would adding a (relatively) middle of the road power amplifier to my Pioneer Elite 52TX do me much good?" So I appreciate you saving me $300 + on a Kenwood Basic or Onkyo Power amp that wouldn't have done much to enhance my listening experience. The only other question is; would adding a power amp serve to extend the life of my receiver?

Yes, using external amps will help extend the life of the receiver if you intended to use it for a long time. However I'd say most people would upgrade long before the typical life expectancy of a receiver.

Receiver technology is not unlike a PC: it is outdated next year in most cases, unless you bought the flagship model. In most cases, you can get by without upgrading over time, but IMO, you will reach a point where an upgrade is inevitable and that is often just a few years. My receiver is currently about 10yrs old with no HDMI but I have extended its life cycle by using a player that has analog outputs for the latest audio formats.

 

[Hi-Fi Novice]

Since this particular system is totally dedicated to music I don't expect that I will ever upgrade it. I have the option to bi-amp the front mains, or I know that I can get a Mitsubishi M-A5200 for about $130.00. I just don't know enough about middle of the road power amps. I could also grab a Kenwood M1-D basic for about $200. Any opinion on either of these amps?

 

[j_garcia]

Get a good amp and don't bother with biamping.

 

[sbk510]

good amps for a reason...

I moved up from a Yammy RXV-765 to an ATI 180Wx5. The differences in a seperate amp are higher S/N ratio (lower noise floor as already mentioned) higher damping factor and higher slew rate. For me, these came into play as improved bass response. When listening to a movie, and a gunshot or explosion happens, the transient is super quick. Also the extra power means you'll never run out of headroom/clip the amp. The other main difference is that I now have FULL rated power to all 5 channels. Look on the back of your reciever and see how many Watts it draws from the wall. My ATI draws 1800. My Yammy (supposedly 90Wx7) only draws about 420W. This translates into current carrying capability and that's what you need in an amplifier.

Another advantage is that you can keep the amp and just change the processor when you want.

I got my amp as a b-stock deal, so I paid half price for full warranty. I feel good about the deal. It's hard to drop a lot of cash on something that you never heard, so shop the hell out of it, and find a good deal. Used is also a good way to buy. That thing will sound sweet, but the only way to have one is to buy one. I find myself listening to old music over just so I can hear it properly.

 

[PENG]

Look on the back of your reciever and see how many Watts it draws from the wall. My ATI draws 1800. My Yammy (supposedly 90Wx7) only draws about 420W.

That's mostly (though not totally) myth going around via hearsays. Manufacturers don't seem to follow the same standard(s). For example, if you read the instruction manual of some Yammie models you will see a low draw and then a much higher one such as 1000 to 1100W maximum. HK has done similar things, specifying more than one number at times in different places (data sheet, manual, back of the unit etc.).

This translates into current carrying capability and that's what you need in an amplifier.

Typically true, power amps tend to have higher current capability but that only translates into audible benefit when the load has a need to draw currents higher than the AVR/amp can deliver. Otherwise, it is like money in the bank, it is good to have billions but if you never need more than a million the other 999 millions won't do anything for you, that is until one day you suddenly need two millions.......

So yes, it is always good to have that ATI amp on hand.

 

[Hi-Fi Novice]

That gives me a much better idea of the benefits of adding a power amp. I went to a small "Mom-n-Pop" audio store locally looking to pick up a Carver TFM-25(?) at 225 WPC for $325.00 (I think) and the guy told me not to waste my money....he literrally dissuaded me from making a purchase and spent a good part of his morning explaining quite a few things about audio and actually SHOWED me the difference between my Pioneer Elite 52tx and the 1015TX. In the end he believed the weak link in my system was my Sound Dynamics RTS-11's. He was polite about it but suggested changing my fronts (mains) to something better - again, he didn't try to sell me anything when he knew I had a pocket full of cash. I was under the impression that Sound Dynamics made a pretty decent product......was I wrong? I should replace my front mains first?

 

[Pyrrho]

This (among a few other replies) answers a question I posed on another AV Forum quite clearly. My question was simple; "would adding a (relatively) middle of the road power amplifier to my Pioneer Elite 52TX do me much good?" So I appreciate you saving me $300 + on a Kenwood Basic or Onkyo Power amp that wouldn't have done much to enhance my listening experience. The only other question is; would adding a power amp serve to extend the life of my receiver?

It will extend the life of the receiver ONLY if you are pushing it hard. Otherwise, no, using the amplifier section of your receiver is what is generally expected, and will be fine.

That gives me a much better idea of the benefits of adding a power amp. I went to a small "Mom-n-Pop" audio store locally looking to pick up a Carver TFM-25(?) at 225 WPC for $325.00 (I think) and the guy told me not to waste my money....he literrally dissuaded me from making a purchase and spent a good part of his morning explaining quite a few things about audio and actually SHOWED me the difference between my Pioneer Elite 52tx and the 1015TX. In the end he believed the weak link in my system was my Sound Dynamics RTS-11's. He was polite about it but suggested changing my fronts (mains) to something better - again, he didn't try to sell me anything when he knew I had a pocket full of cash. I was under the impression that Sound Dynamics made a pretty decent product......was I wrong? I should replace my front mains first?

In general, speakers are the weak link in the audio chain. I have a pair of Apogee Stage speakers for my main 2 channel system, and although they are great (read the professional reviews you can find via this link), they are the weak link in that system (the only time they are not the weakest link in the chain is when I put on a poorly recorded disc, and then it is the recording that is the greatest liability). You will never get the flat frequency response from speakers that you get from any decent amplifier (used within its limits) and digital source, nor will you get such low levels of distortion, no matter how much money you put into speakers. Most people spend way too much of their budget on electronics and far too little on their speakers if actual sound quality is the goal.

Sorry for being so slow to respond; I have been away from the site for a while.