M

mnatiq

Audioholic
i need some help regarding a amp for my system. now i already have a A/V receiver (onkyo) so i might be saying the wrong thing. what i actually need is a amp/s that i will connect with my system and produce more power, pre or pro amp, not sure what there called. i hope i did not confuse u guys, cuz i sure confused myself. anywhoo i dont want to spend to much money but want something decent. from my understanding a pre/pro amp will only provide more power to 2 select speakers not all of the 7 speakers i have or are there amps that will do all or even 5. i dont mind 5.

my onkyo does 130 watts per channel. is a amp GOING TO MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE? would i be able to notice it?

btw i know my center sucks. i am getting a new matching polk center shortly.

thanks

ps i live in canada so dont have all those shops that u guys have in usa.
 
Last edited:
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
i need some help regarding a amp for my system. now i already have a A/V receiver (onkyo) so i might be saying the wrong thing. what i actually need is a amp/s that i will connect with my system and produce more power, pre or pro amp, not sure what there called. i hope i did not confuse u guys, cuz i sure confused myself. anywhoo i dont want to spend to much money but want something decent. from my understanding a pre/pro amp will only provide more power to 2 select speakers not all of the 7 speakers i have or are there amps that will do all or even 5. i dont mind 5.

my onkyo does 130 watts per channel. is a amp GOING TO MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE? would i be able to notice it?

btw i know my center sucks. i am getting a new matching polk center shortly.

thanks

ps i live in canada so dont have all those shops that u guys have in usa.
Your AVR puts out nice power and unless your room is very large and you listen very loud, you probably will not need an amp. If you think you do, you will have to setp up into the 250wpc range to make a difference. Your main speakers have a sensitivity of 90db, so around 3' @1 watt the will play @90dbs. If you sit 10' away and give the speakers 50 watts of continuous power, that would be in the 100db range.
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
Your AVR puts out nice power and unless your room is very large and you listen very loud, you probably will not need an amp. If you think you do, you will have to setp up into the 250wpc range to make a difference. Your main speakers have a sensitivity of 90db, so around 3' @1 watt the will play @90dbs. If you sit 10' away and give the speakers 50 watts of continuous power, that would be in the 100db range.
+1 :) Absolutely agree with that. And besides your Onkyo 806 is plenty for your speakers.
 
M

mnatiq

Audioholic
so can u guys tell me of some brands or models that i should check out? thanks
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
so can u guys tell me of some brands or models that i should check out? thanks
Well, if you're not totally satisfied with your Onkyo TX-SR806, which I'm quite surprised by the way, you can always have a look at the Harman Kardon AVR-354. That's a very nice receiver that you already listened to and that you also like. How's that? :)
 
C

cfrizz

Senior Audioholic
Most people notice a clear and distinct difference when they step up to 200wpc or more, which isn't cheap.

Keep an eye out on Audiogon for a good deal on a Rotel, Sunfire, Parasound, Outlaw, B & K, Nad, Adcom. Best bang for the buck new would be an Emotiva.

Nothing beats separate amplification to ensure your speakers operate to their full potential! Happy shopping & let us know what you get.:)

so can u guys tell me of some brands or models that i should check out? thanks
 
M

mnatiq

Audioholic
Well, if you're not totally satisfied with your Onkyo TX-SR806, which I'm quite surprised by the way, you can always have a look at the Harman Kardon AVR-354. That's a very nice receiver that you already listened to and that you also like. How's that? :)
i had the 354 for about a month, or a bit less (got it from futureshop and returned it b4 the 30 days were up, lol) it was a lil out of my price range at the time when it was new in canada. imo its the best receiver i have ever had (onkyo 806, pioneer 9310, hk 354, hk 247, and some yamaha from bestbuy which was 7.2, forget the exact model) to be honest with u i have my onkyo on sale on kijiji and with the money i will get a 354 or the 3550hd which i guess are exactly the same thing specs wise. i love hk.
 
M

mnatiq

Audioholic
never been able to out why hk's 75 watts sounds louder and better then onkyo or pioneer's 130 watts? strange.
 
M

mnatiq

Audioholic
the emotiva upa 7 says that its 125 watts per channel, so does that mean it will be 125 watts+onkyo's original 130 OR is it just downgrading my onkyo's 130 to 125. i dont get it. plz help.
 
M

MatthewB.

Audioholic General
Amp rating in receivers are kinda subjective. Which means take them with a grain of salt. Take Sonys amp, Sony claims their amp will reach 120 watts per channel in their ES line, but that's only with two speakers hooked up. When bench tested (Sound and Vision three years running now) Sony with 5 speakers only puts out about 45 watts per channel and with 7 speakers it puts out a paltry 35 wpc.

The reason H/K sound better, is they usually have very high current amps built in (like Onkyo) and even they their amps say 78 watts per channel, when bench tested they usually run higher with only two channels driven and pretty much hit the mark at around 75 wpc when five or more speakers hooked up.

I really hate the term sounds better because more watts does not equate to better sound. You have to remember 90% of the time, your amp is just cruising along at 3-5 watts per channel and it's only during intense battle scenes or heavy explosions that your amp needs breif periods (like a second or two) of real power from the amps (normally around 50-70 watts)

Outboard amps are highly regarded because they only have one job and that is to provide ample power to a speaker and do a far superior job than those in receivers. Yes they do make stereo amps, three channel amps, five channel and seven channel amps. The best amps to get are normally monoblock amps that only drive one channel (because they don't have to share components to help drive other channels, unless you get a multichannel amp that has seperate monoblocks for each channel built in (Emotiva and Earthquake come to mind)

The benefit of adding a seperate two channel amp to any receiver is the fact that it helps ease the burdon of the recievers internal amp. So now the recievers amp will now have more power to drive other speakers hooked up, so that it has more power on reserve than having to drive all five or seven channels.

I use all three of my recievers (Denon 4802, Denon 3808 and Onkyo 805) as preamps with outboard amps. Do I need to? Hell no, the amps built in these recievers have great amps, but I do notice slightly better clarity and depth to sound when using amps, is the sound all that much better, not really, I mean it's a hair better, but not jaw dropping or even night and day. Most people probably won't even notice a difference.

I agree you will have to really get double the wattage to just get a 3db increase in sound, but you have to remember 99% of humans won't be bale to tell the difference between running a 130 wpc amp and adding a 250 wpc amp. It irks me when people claim there speakers opened up with all this power. I shirk because I wonder how? when the amp is just cruising along at 3-5 watts and even during heavy explosions the amp isn't going to come anywhere close to ever crossing 100 watts unless they are listening at insane levels (then they have more to worry about than a 3db increase in the future) or they are listening in very very large rooms.

With the advent of powered subs, this had the greatest benefit of power to recievers, because in the days of the 70's and 80's most recievers had to have ample power to drive big three way speakers with big 12" drivers to create bass, and those receivers needed alot of power, but with powered subs and bookshelf speakers, this helped the reciever only having to drive the mid range and tweeters which requires very minimal power (at most around 70 watts during heavy scenes as mentioned)

The OP I think the money you spend on an outboard amp will be better used towards room acoustics or a better center (as you mentioned) rather than the minimal increase you might get or might not even notice with an outboard amp.
 
M

mnatiq

Audioholic
Amp rating in receivers are kinda subjective. Which means take them with a grain of salt. Take Sonys amp, Sony claims their amp will reach 120 watts per channel in their ES line, but that's only with two speakers hooked up. When bench tested (Sound and Vision three years running now) Sony with 5 speakers only puts out about 45 watts per channel and with 7 speakers it puts out a paltry 35 wpc.

The reason H/K sound better, is they usually have very high current amps built in (like Onkyo) and even they their amps say 78 watts per channel, when bench tested they usually run higher with only two channels driven and pretty much hit the mark at around 75 wpc when five or more speakers hooked up.

I really hate the term sounds better because more watts does not equate to better sound. You have to remember 90% of the time, your amp is just cruising along at 3-5 watts per channel and it's only during intense battle scenes or heavy explosions that your amp needs breif periods (like a second or two) of real power from the amps (normally around 50-70 watts)

Outboard amps are highly regarded because they only have one job and that is to provide ample power to a speaker and do a far superior job than those in receivers. Yes they do make stereo amps, three channel amps, five channel and seven channel amps. The best amps to get are normally monoblock amps that only drive one channel (because they don't have to share components to help drive other channels, unless you get a multichannel amp that has seperate monoblocks for each channel built in (Emotiva and Earthquake come to mind)

The benefit of adding a seperate two channel amp to any receiver is the fact that it helps ease the burdon of the recievers internal amp. So now the recievers amp will now have more power to drive other speakers hooked up, so that it has more power on reserve than having to drive all five or seven channels.

I use all three of my recievers (Denon 4802, Denon 3808 and Onkyo 805) as preamps with outboard amps. Do I need to? Hell no, the amps built in these recievers have great amps, but I do notice slightly better clarity and depth to sound when using amps, is the sound all that much better, not really, I mean it's a hair better, but not jaw dropping or even night and day. Most people probably won't even notice a difference.

I agree you will have to really get double the wattage to just get a 3db increase in sound, but you have to remember 99% of humans won't be bale to tell the difference between running a 130 wpc amp and adding a 250 wpc amp. It irks me when people claim there speakers opened up with all this power. I shirk because I wonder how? when the amp is just cruising along at 3-5 watts and even during heavy explosions the amp isn't going to come anywhere close to ever crossing 100 watts unless they are listening at insane levels (then they have more to worry about than a 3db increase in the future) or they are listening in very very large rooms.

With the advent of powered subs, this had the greatest benefit of power to recievers, because in the days of the 70's and 80's most recievers had to have ample power to drive big three way speakers with big 12" drivers to create bass, and those receivers needed alot of power, but with powered subs and bookshelf speakers, this helped the reciever only having to drive the mid range and tweeters which requires very minimal power (at most around 70 watts during heavy scenes as mentioned)

The OP I think the money you spend on an outboard amp will be better used towards room acoustics or a better center (as you mentioned) rather than the minimal increase you might get or might not even notice with an outboard amp.
thanks man, can u answer this 1 question plz "the emotiva upa 7 says that its 125 watts per channel, so does that mean it will be 125 watts+onkyo's original 130 OR is it just downgrading my onkyo's 130 to 125. i dont get it. plz help"
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
The reason H/K sound better, is they usually have very high current amps built in (like Onkyo)
That is a subjective thing, to some people they sound better, to others they don't. Regarding the high current things, Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha all make such claims. Remember the S&V showed the HKAVR330's protective circuit activated after only 0.5 second when tested with a 4 ohm load and delivering more than 25WPC? No wonder they use the word "instantaneous" to describe their high current capability. Again they are honest about their specs!

and even they their amps say 78 watts per channel, when bench tested they usually run higher with only two channels driven and pretty much hit the mark at around 75 wpc when five or more speakers hooked up.
There is no proof for even such claims. HK don't claim ACD either, they specifically say:

"Seven-Channel Surround Modes, Power per Individual Channel :
Front L & R Channels : 75 Watts per channel @ <0.07% THD, 20Hz – 20kHz into 8 ohms
Center Channel : 75 Watts @ <0.07% THD, 20Hz – 20kHz into 8 ohms
Surround Channels (L & R Side, L & R Back) : 75 Watts per channel @ <0.07% THD, 20Hz – 20kHz into 8 ohms"

http://www.harmankardon.com/specifications.aspx?Region=USA&Country=US&Language=ENG&cat=REC&ser=&prod=AVR 354&sType=C

I really hate the term sounds better because more watts does not equate to better sound. You have to remember 90% of the time, your amp is just cruising along at 3-5 watts per channel and it's only during intense battle scenes or heavy explosions that your amp needs breif periods (like a second or two) of real power from the amps (normally around 50-70 watts)
I think you are probably right, but I would say the peak power for those split seconds could be much higher, but part of it would be taken care of by a good subwoofer.


I use all three of my recievers (Denon 4802, Denon 3808 and Onkyo 805) as preamps with outboard amps. Do I need to? Hell no, the amps built in these recievers have great amps, but I do notice slightly better clarity and depth to sound when using amps, is the sound all that much better, not really, I mean it's a hair better, but not jaw dropping or even night and day. Most people probably won't even notice a difference.
You have some of the most powerful receivers. Based on available bench test results the only HK models that could beat any of those receivers in terms of power output are the AVR7200 and 7300. The HKAVR630 did not come close to the tested output of the Denon AVR3805 regardless of 1,2 or 5 channels driven.

It irks me when people claim there speakers opened up with all this power. I shirk because I wonder how? when the amp is just cruising along at 3-5 watts and even during heavy explosions the amp isn't going to come anywhere close to ever crossing 100 watts unless they are listening at insane levels (then they have more to worry about than a 3db increase in the future) or they are listening in very very large rooms.
I fully agree, but I still prefer to have power that I may never need. I have taken enough measurements to know for my own music listening, only classical music that involves bass drums and timpani demands the occasional short burst of high peak currents. Even at those short burst moments, in my room and at SPL that I can tolerate, my receiver alone could handle it nicely but I feel more comfortable to let the power amp take care of the power requirements.

The OP I think the money you spend on an outboard amp will be better used towards room acoustics or a better center (as you mentioned) rather than the minimal increase you might get or might not even notice with an outboard amp.
If he thinks the HK 354 sounds better than his 806, I would bet he is among those who would appreciate the difference (such as what you said about the speakers opening up...) made by external amps.
 
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M

MatthewB.

Audioholic General
mnatiq, your not really doing any better or worse with an amp that has a difference of only 5 watts per channel, as mentioned for any improvemnets you want to double what your currently using and even then I doubt you will notica a difference. More watts is only beneficial for those brief one or two seconds at extreme volumes. Going from a 130wpc to a 125wpc has no cost benefit, as mentioned use that money to by room acoustics which will give you real world better sound or a better center (because you don't like the one you have. And no your not combing watts, it's either 125 in the Emotiva or 130 watts in the reciever it doesnt combine.

Peng, thanks for adding useful info to my post, I apprecaite when others can expound on what I sometimes have a poor time in saying. So thanks. :D
 
M

mnatiq

Audioholic
i think i will not get the amp yet. gonna get the hk avr 354 and a center. gotta sell this onkyo first.
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
i think i will not get the amp yet. gonna get the hk avr 354 and a center. gotta sell this onkyo first.
I think that for the price and true power difference, the Onkyo TX-SR806 still remains an excellent valued receiver. In particular when you take into consideration the outrageous prices that Future Shop stores in Canada, charges for their Harman Kardon receivers.
I know, I've seen it with my own eyes.
_________________________________

* Peng, great post (post #12). :)
 
M

mnatiq

Audioholic
I think that for the price and true power difference, the Onkyo TX-SR806 still remains an excellent valued receiver. In particular when you take into consideration the outrageous prices that Future Shop stores in Canada, charges for their Harman Kardon receivers.
I know, I've seen it with my own eyes.
_________________________________

* Peng, great post (post #12). :)
i will get it from ebay. there is a powerseller and he seems fine. gonna cost me 700 cad delivered.
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
i will get it from ebay. there is a powerseller and he seems fine. gonna cost me 700 cad delivered.
If you're happy with that (and you should, as it is much less money than at Future Shop),
then I'm happy for you man. :)

* By the way, I paid just a bit over that (cdn $) for my Onky 805. :)
 
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Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
As mentioned on the other thread, there's no good reason to sell your Onkyo to get an H/K again. If you want to upgrade think about getting a two channel amplifier to power your front speakers. More often than not a power amplifier rated similarly to a receiver will ultimately have more power. A seperate amplifier's power becomes relevant with transients because they have more headroom (capability to output much higher wattage momentarily than the amplifier is rated for).
 

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