America vs the rest of the world.

[Buckeyefan 1]

JAD2: Quickness in learning has nothing to do with education, it may aid some, but as a blanket statement NO.
What values does it teach???? Most of your values are set well before higher education, even middle school.
Opens the mind??? Again doesnt work as as a blanket statement. I know plenty of people whom have more open of a mind for coming up with new things, solutions etc that never made it to graduation.
Education paving the road for experience is another wild one as a blanket statement.

You sound like my father in law. Always trying to prove yourself and saying how much better a person you are than those in senior positions/management. No humility. Angry at the world for what it didn't provide you. Hopefully you'll send your kids to college so they don't have that same chip on their shoulder.

 

[Sheep]

Oh Snap!

SheepStar

 

[masak_aer]

Don't say education isn't important

For me and my family, education comes first. Though my mom was only a high school grad, she scored A's and only 1 B. She pushed me to go through with my ed and to my grad school. We were so poor at that time. My sis had to skip classes just to help my mom getting a lil' bit more money. We all made it through.

Why education? First, it is your insurance to get a better job (many more jobs will be available for you if you are educated). Second, you learn a whole lot more things (theories mostly, but it depends on oneself to be able to apply it into practice). Third, you get to know what choices you may have that you may not have even heard of if you don't go to school then you can make a wiser decision. Fourth, it opens up your mind just as book opens minds. You can see the differences between an uneducated person to an educated one in their abilities to see and understand problems.

Don't think that i underestimate people with no/little education. Not at all! There are quite a few of those people that make it up even make it up so high. BUT, how many of those are there? Not that many. Why? Because they rely solely on their experiences which may not be as beneficial as they thought they would be. I can say that most uneducated labor know how to work it right (a robot?), but don't know why? Which in time, is more important than how to do it right. The "why" will be very important in discoveries of many new things.

Let me give you one story my mom told me (When I once decided to quit high-school):
There's a king with his two ministers. One is a scholar (highly educated) and the other is one who works his *** off to get to his position (through experience). The first one always looks sleepy and bored in his seat and spend most of his days writing, reading and snoozing off. The other just keep on working and organizing things and keep himself busy with daily chores of the kingdom. Story cuts short.
The second minister was jealous and complained to the king. "He is lazy and all he does is sleep. Why do you keep him as a minister?" he asked. The king replied,"Ok, let's do this. Go to the river and tell me how many boats are there."
Off ran the second minister and reported,"There was only one small boat with a passenger. A pretty woman."
The King said,"Very good. Anything else you want to add?"
"No, that's all you asked me before," he replied.

The first minister came back dragging his fat stomach and sat down. "So what do you see?" the King asked. "I saw a boat, an old man and a lady." he answered.
"What else do you see?"
"Well, I saw a new dark wood boat, 20 feet in length, an old man and a beautiful lady in yellow dress. She was sitting just across from the old man. Not too far from the boat is an oak tree and 10 people were there as well talking to each other. "

The King said to his second minister,"I know you work hard and such and I have paid you with the money i think you should get. But you can see, although my other minister seems lazy. He sees more than you do. Just because i DID NOT ask you doesn't mean i WILL NOT need the information. He thinks more and it so important for the welfare of this kingdom. There's a saying in Chinese: A pen is mightier than a sword. Hence, education is very important in our lives.

For me personally, there are three things you need most to succeed:

• Education
• Willingness to work hard
• Luck and Courage to take on chances

You can argue as much as you want. Those that doesn't fit in the illustration above is what i called Exceptions and there aren't that many of those. You, , might be one of the "exceptions".

 

[highfihoney]

I wanted to start this as this is really what the HD vs Bose is all about in my opinion.

Look at all the American swag out on market. How many items are really USA made. After 9-11 we had flags and ribbon magnets all over the USA. Did you notice not 1 was made in the good ole USA.

See to me, America is smart by going outside the USA for manufacturering, as the DUMBASS foreign companies work cheap and the USA works very expensive.

If we were so great foreign companies would use the USA for manufacturering of their goods. But the USA has unions, and we have to pay ridiculous amounts to a union worker.

How many times have you seen picket lines over not using union workers.
Are union workers any better. I think not.

Perfect example happened here in Walkill NY. Shoprite Grocery chain. They were located in Walkill NY. Notice I said they were. See the Union wanted more benefits and more pay. Some of these unions workers loaded and unloaded trucks making $20+ HR. SO THE COMPANY SAID THEY CAN NOT KEEP UP WITH THE BENEFITS AND PAY. So the union authorized a strike.
So Shoprite(Wakefern) said ok, you strike and get no pay, while we find a new location for our warehouse. So wakefern is making no money and yet the union workers wants more. Wakefern closed shop because of the union and moved it to a less expensive area in PA. Now those striking union workers who felt they needed more money and benefits lost what they had for wanting more.

Just look at the example above. A union worker getting paid $20+hr to do no more or less they the non union worker. The union people can tell you that they work hard for their money. But the person working next to them doing nothing but the minimum amount of work will get the same pay at the end of the day. Even raises are equal. So where is the sense of pride? In your pocket!

America is fat with greed. Starving countries will take anything they can get.
So to work for $1. a day seems like a lot for them.

12 million illegal aliens do most of all our farming for the farmer CHEAPLY, cooking for our diners cheaply, etc... Try to find an american who wants to work for their money.

I think I ranted enough.

I have not read all of the responses to your thread yet but i will,i thought it better to respond to your comments before reading any further,there is alot of merit to what you said about unions but understand this,you cant equate all unions as being bad,even the unions that allow their membership to take advantage of the company they work for under the threat of a strike help feed our economy.

Im in the position to see most if not all sides of the union equasition,im a project manager for a union construction company that does work ranging from skyscrapers to automotive factorys,even though im in management i still retain my union membership.

The company i work for does vast amounts of projects for all the automotive manufacturers & over the last 25 years ive seen it all inside these factories,right now im involved in an automotive factory project in detroit where on a daily basis i see the entire skilled trades dept at the facility do no work at all,all day long they watch tv,sleep,play cards,cook food on hot plates,look at porno,ect,these employees are also the highest paid employees in the whole factory,this type of performance is typical of all the automotive factorys in michigan especially the big 3,also the skills possesed by these uaw skilled tradesmen are not sufficient enough for the work they perform to pass any local building code,what little training they have is substandard at the very least.

On the other hand of the union in the same factory i also see on a daily basis the assembly line workers who seem to take a great amount of pride in thier work,things have changed for the average assembly line worker in the last 25 years,gone are the days of shoddy workmanship & 3 men to perform a single task,the lines in the factorys are now staffed with people who are giving a fair days work for a fair days pay & the average assemble line worker makes no where near $30 an hour infact i could not live very well on $30 an hour let alone the $18 to $22 an hour most of these people make.

In most cases unions are a nessasary evil,corporate america has proven time & time again that they will horde the wealth & not distribute a fair wage to its workers unless there is a need to do so,there is very little difference in overall cost between using union vs non union construction companys,my last project was open to union & non union bidders alike with my firm winning the contract for $7.1 million with a projected profit margin of 31%,the non union company who was the second lowest bidder came in at just over $7.1 million.

My non union counterpart would make about $50,000 less than myself,the non union counterparts to the journeymen who work under my direction would make $30,000 less than my men,with the huge differences in wages between the union & non union construction companys there should be a drastic difference in the amounts of the bids for work from union against non union,there is very little difference so where does all the extra cash go when it does not get distributed to any of the blue collar workers,it must get distributed to the white collar workers & stock holders who make up the smallest percentage of any corporation,this type of wealth distribution does not help fuel an economy.

Workers need good wages in order to lead a good life & help fuel our economy from spending their disposable income on items other than rent & food.

I agree with the fact that alot of unions have been out of control for decades with their outdated contracts that they force on corporations but this is not the norm any longer,as the oldtimers who work under the old contracts retire a new class of worker is taking their place & they are not being overpaid or under worked.

 

[mulester7]

I agree with the fact that alot of unions have been out of control for decades with their outdated contracts that they force on corporations.

.....HiFiHoney, I'd like to hear some examples of where a labor union "forced" contractual agreements on a corporation....your post was good and actually gave unions a fair shake against greedy corporations, but a lot of this thread has been a cry against labor unions....anybody can pull an example out of thin air concerning a labor union protecting worthless workers, but I suspect most examples quoted don't know anything about the true happenings, and only got a word-of-mouth reporting....and I'll say this, my only experience with unions has been with railroads I have been employed by, but I don't think it's any different with any corporation wanting to keep all the money....contract negotiations with the carrier Union Pacific every four years turn out, every time, to be my union representatives simply trying to keep what agreements and benefits we have in effect, with the carrier trying to take virtually EVERYTHING we have away from us....our contracts are NEVER finalized on the first go-round, and we have worked without a new contract for as much as two years with the greedy pencil-pushers in Omaha/New York holding out for every nickel, doing their best to send blue collar workers home....and, this is with RECORD profits EVERY succeeding quarter since about 1987 by Union Pacific with the latest one approching 500 million PROFIT....you'll NEVER convince me it's the labor unions that are the greedy side trying to protect worthless workers....never....I've been right in the middle of dealing with a corporation as a blue-collar union worker since 1979, and it's been the same story the whole time as I've viewed the situation, and have been constantly reminded that no man can serve two masters....I feel sorry for persons who worship money and have that as their central goal in this life....questions....which of our two political parties has done their dead-level best to cripple and eliminate labor unions?....what do you feel is their goal?....people who have been brain-washed to lean to that political party evidently think their butt is, or will be, covered....I say it probably won't be covered at all, when push WILL come to shove....it's ALL going to boil down to money and power, Gentlemen.....

 

[Tomorrow]

I've been shying away from these important discussions in the Steam Vent. There seemed to be little room for dialog and learning. There is usually just a bunch of pontification and a lot of us...well...letting off steam. BUT, many of the pontificators have left, lol, and it's less steamy these days. It's a lot more civil than in the past. Good work, everyone.

Just a quick two cents...no change required....

Regarding unions, IMHO....

I've worked for both Hated Management and Greedy Unions as a contract negotiator and arbitration rep. To keep it as brief and simple as possible...it's all about power. Unions are big business. Big business is big business. Both, generally, are now bloated with successes and have learned little from failures. Both are becoming irrelevant in this new, world-competition business environment.

Fast moving, nimble, risk-taking, internally confrontational organizations will be the successes of the future.

Regarding formal education.... it will never be irrelevant so long as it frees/assists the individual to explore, uniquely develop, and thrive within some productive environment.

Good cheer.

 

[highfihoney]

.....HiFiHoney, I'd like to hear some examples of where a labor union "forced" contractual agreements on a corporation....your post was good and actually gave unions a fair shake against greedy corporations, but a lot of this thread has been a cry against labor unions

Hi mule,i dont want anybody to think im anti union in any way because im not,what i am against is when any union protects an outdated arm of its labor force by threatening a strike with the entire union,this type of bargining hurts everybody.

An example of this type of strong arm tactic is with the uaw,the uaw keeps fighting to retain their own in house skilled trade deptartments,in the factory im currently working on(which for obvious reasons i cant name) they have a fully staffed skilled trade dept for bldg maintainence that maintains nothing yet they are at the core of every contract negotiation,this skilled trade dept has reduced theirselves to nothing more than time sponges,all bldg maintainence has been outsourced at this plant for years yet every contract negotiation ends up fighting to retain these workers,early in the project im on right now the inhouse skilled trades had a small portion of the contract to do with their uaw skilled trades,3 months into the work the skilled trades were at a total work stoppage,not only could these skilled tradesmen not read the blueprints well enough to finish the task at hand the workmanship of the work they had performed caused the entire project to restart from scratch with my company totaly gutting all the work they had performed & starting from scratch.

After we took their work over they were simply assigned to other areas of the factory,these same union men currently recieve 2 hours a day overtime pay 6 days a week just because outside contractors are inside the factory they work at,these type of employees do not represent even a small portion of the work force in this factory but they are fought for very strongly at contract time & the results of the negoiations are well known in the local newspapers.

That example is but a small one but unfortunately these type things are what the average non union worker see's & fixates on giving them the idea that all union workers are over paid & do very little work,i have seen workers in this same factory bust their *** to the point i stop & think......damm.

I could cite other examples but i dont think it would be taken the right way by many people & i hope people dont get the wrong impression that my example is tword the majority of union labor because its not.

Something for the younger guys to remember.........without a union who will fight to keep your wages high enough where you can afford a few luxuries out of life because corporations will not pay anybody more than what they can get away with no matter how well the corporation is doing.

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

For me personally, there are three things you need most to succeed:

• Education
• Willingness to work hard
• Luck and Courage to take on chances

I would add that someone who wishes to succeed will most of all need Self Motivation. What good is a fancy college education if your un-motivated children will just want to move back home and not look for a job in their field. They just sell Tvs at SEARS and wonder why they never get promoted.

Even with your college degree you'll need to start somewhere, and you'll need motivation to climb the ladder of success so you can eventually get the good job that pays the big bucks. Many college students, and parents of college students are suprised when high-paying careers don't magically land in their laps after they get their diplomas!

Then once you succeed in your career you have to be motivated to keep getting ahead! What good is becoming the manager of the factory if corporate decides to close shop and moe production somewhere else? (A scenario most of us are familiar with?) What good is your certificate in photochemical processing when all your customers switch to digital photography?

All the Ivy league education in the world is worthless if you or you children are less motivated than your competition to get the job done (and with 250,000,000 citizens + a few million immigrants who work for chump change, you will have competition for every dollar you want to earn).

 

[mulester7]

Hi mule,i dont want anybody to think im anti union in any way because im not,what i am against is when any union protects an outdated arm of its labor force by threatening a strike with the entire union,this type of bargining hurts everybody.

....HiFi, as I said, I only have experience with the UTU and BLET, that's conductors, switchmen, and brakemen, and a trainmen side of the BLE....and, our right to strike got taken away from us in about '90 by sparky sr.....

An example of this type of strong arm tactic is with the uaw,the uaw keeps fighting to retain their own in house skilled trade departments,in the factory im currently working on(which for obvious reasons i cant name) they have a fully staffed skilled trade dept for bldg maintainence that maintains nothing yet they are at the core of every contract negotiation,this skilled trade dept has reduced theirselves to nothing more than time sponges,all bldg maintainence has been outsourced at this plant for years yet every contract negotiation ends up fighting to retain these workers,early in the project im on right now the inhouse skilled trades had a small portion of the contract to do with their uaw skilled trades,3 months into the work the skilled trades were at a total work stoppage,not only could these skilled tradesmen not read the blueprints well enough to finish the task at hand the workmanship of the work they had performed caused the entire project to restart from scratch with my company totaly gutting all the work they had performed & starting from scratch.

.....HiFi, this doesn't make sense to me, but I guess I am used to railroading....trust me, someone not doing their job in ANY department at the railroad is run off sooner than later....the union representation defending a worthless railroad worker at his investigation doesn't have a CHANCE if the company has done their homework, and can prove beyond a doubt their claim of his worthlessness is true, and arbitration following his dismissal will RARELY do him any good....I assure you, if Union Pacific wants you gone for valid reasons, it will come to pass soon....the company you are doing work for evidently doesn't care, or for some reason is afraid to challenge incompetence....but, from what you've said, I suspect they would have a strong case....and, like I said, I have no idea of The United Auto Workers strengths or influences.....

Something for the younger guys to remember.........without a union who will fight to keep your wages high enough where you can afford a few luxuries out of life because corporations will not pay anybody more than what they can get away with no matter how well the corporation is doing.

.....this is the best and most applicable statement of the current discussion....

 

[mulester7]

I would add that someone who wishes to succeed will most of all need Self Motivation. What good is a fancy college education if your un-motivated children will just want to move back home and not look for a job in their field. They just sell Tvs at SEARS and wonder why they never get promoted.

Even with your college degree you'll need to start somewhere, and you'll need motivation to climb the ladder of success so you can eventually get the good job that pays the big bucks. Many college students, and parents of college students are suprised when high-paying careers don't magically land in their laps after they get their diplomas!

Then once you succeed in your career you have to be motivated to keep getting ahead! What good is becoming the manager of the factory if corporate decides to close shop and moe production somewhere else? (A scenario most of us are familiar with?) What good is your certificate in photochemical processing when all your customers switch to digital photography?

All the Ivy league education in the world is worthless if you or you children are less motivated than your competition to get the job done (and with 250,000,000 citizens + a few million immigrants who work for chump change, you will have competition for every dollar you want to earn).

.....Ninja, imo, this is excellent.....

 

[highfihoney]

HiFi, this doesn't make sense to me, but I guess I am used to railroading....trust me, someone not doing their job in ANY department at the railroad is run off sooner than later

Hi mule,both my grand father & uncle worked the rails their entire lives for grand trunk rail road , i know nothing about their jobs i just thought it was an interesting tid bit.

The whole deal has never made any sense to me either,from relayed accounts from some family members of mine who are uaw workers there is a lot of thats not my job mentality going on.

With my union an employee can be fired on the spot for incompentence,poor workmanship,poor attendance & a few other things then if they want their job back they have to go before the union & company represenatives & start a formal hearing,these same things apply to me & my position,we also do not promote people based on seniority,all promotions are based on skill level,attitude & level of training,in order for any of my employees to reach max pay they must first attend our trade school which lasts for 3 years then apprentice.

Over the years ive caught alot of flack from non union friends of mine who think i have a cushy job just because im union, most of them never stopping to realize that now days union workers need to work harder than their non union counterparts to even keep their jobs.

 

[Takeereasy]

I like the part where Highfihoney pointed out that unions are big business. In many cases the union looks after its own interests, and not those of the people it is there to protect. The union exists to make money. That goal used to coincide with the needs of the worker. Now in many cases it seems that profit for the union is paramount to profit for the worker.

I do agree that unions can still serve a purpose , especially in the construction areas. But there are some bloated unions that got fat and aren't willing to trim down even to protect the people they were created to do just that for.

As for education I think it's fantastic. I was brought up having a teacher for a parent so the importance of education was shown to me at an early age. I do have a job that would be defined as blue collar, but the pay is decent and the benifits are really good. In fact the benifits push the pay from decent to livable, lol. You can never go wrong in school as long as you make yourself accountable to put into practise what you've learned IMO.

 

[JAD2]

I do agree that unions can still serve a purpose , especially in the construction areas. But there are some bloated unions that got fat and aren't willing to trim down even to protect the people they were created to do just that for.

I will have to admit from seeing these posts and something I never really considered, but had heard and never put 2-2 together.

We have 2 forms of unions.

One is the what I would call service workers/ blue collar. These from what I've seen here and put together with people I have heard personally talk about, is a real union.

The other which I was referring too is the manufacturing ones. Manufacturing ones maybe protecting blue collar type workers, but they control all aspects of the manufacturing and even the workers, These are the ones that killed America and forced manufacturing to go overseas.

Now I definitely,even though it was all ready there, but just really never saw it, understand more clearly why some are defending them here.

Rock and Roll hit it right on the head for the education part.
MOTIVATION
Without it no amount of education will do any good.
And thats the problem as I see it totally.
People that go to higher education tend too think that higher education they received, buys them some sort of automatic placement that gives guarantees.
They also think the book is 100% correct, it isnt, it gives basic fundamentals of the perfect world. So without the motivation to adapt what they were given the basics of and how it applies to the real world of work, they become complacent and think everyone else around them is just plain stupid and screwing it up. Thats when you hear, but I got a degree and you dont so please dont tell me how it is!!!!

 

[mulester7]

The other which I was referring too is the manufacturing ones. Manufacturing ones maybe protecting blue collar type workers, but they control all aspects of the manufacturing and even the workers, These are the ones that killed America and forced manufacturing to go overseas.

.....interesting, JAD....and, we all know President Clinton was instrumental in bringing NAFTA into being....but didn't he also push for higher tariffs on products manufactured outside American soil being brought back into the US to be sold to the American consumers?....have we not seen foreign car manufacturing plants spring up on American soil in the lower 48?....American manufacturing companies "tend" to relocate within the borders of the US to start over, but haven't we seen foreign plants come to American soil?....I still consider Bill Clinton to be the Administrator of the Modern Era, who honestly had the American citizens' best interests at heart, but we really haven't had anything to compare him to yet, have we?....if Hillary is ANYWHERE on the ticket in 2008, and I hope she will be, I will RUSH to the polls to vote for her, knowing we'll be getting Bill as her main advisor....some will come back with gag statements toward her, but what has she actually done besides put up with Bill's mangy butt?.....


.....PS....I just asked this question on a political board I used to frequent.....

"even though he was intrumental in bring NAFTA into existance, didn't Clinton also push to raise tariffs on manufactured goods produced away from American soil being brought back into the US for selling?"

.....I got this response from one of the board's most honored posters.....

"mulester, yes, quite right, unlike Reagan and Bush Sr. who sold the store to the Japanese during the '80's, Clinton fought for trading equity. During the Reagan administration and Bush Sr's 4 years, the Japanese could sell us anything they wanted but they would laugh at our products as they sat on their docks. There was a time before the 70's when "made in Japan" was a joke often seen in cartoons. Then came Ronald Reagan and Bush Sr. to make it a truism. Clinton, flawed as he may have been in his personal life, remedied that situation."

 

[masak_aer]

Clinton, my man! I'd rather have a president that plays with his mistresses than a president who plays with guns, and bombs.

 

[Tomorrow]

.....interesting, JAD....and, we all know President Clinton was instrumental in bringing NAFTA into being....but didn't he also push for higher tariffs on products manufactured outside American soil being brought back into the US to be sold to the American consumers?....have we not seen foreign car manufacturing plants spring up on American soil in the lower 48?....American manufacturing companies "tend" to relocate within the borders of the US to start over, but haven't we seen foreign plants come to American soil?....I still consider Bill Clinton to be the Administrator of the Modern Era, who honestly had the American citizens' best interests at heart, but we really haven't had anything to compare him to yet, have we?....if Hillary is ANYWHERE on the ticket in 2008, and I hope she will be, I will RUSH to the polls to vote for her, knowing we'll be getting Bill as her main advisor....some will come back with gag statements toward her, but what has she actually done besides put up with Bill's mangy butt?.....


.....PS....I just asked this question on a political board I used to frequent.....

"even though he was intrumental in bring NAFTA into existance, didn't Clinton also push to raise tariffs on manufactured goods produced away from American soil being brought back into the US for selling?"

.....I got this response from one of the board's most honored posters.....

"mulester, yes, quite right, unlike Reagan and Bush Sr. who sold the store to the Japanese during the '80's, Clinton fought for trading equity. During the Reagan administration and Bush Sr's 4 years, the Japanese could sell us anything they wanted but they would laugh at our products as they sat on their docks. There was a time before the 70's when "made in Japan" was a joke often seen in cartoons. Then came Ronald Reagan and Bush Sr. to make it a truism. Clinton, flawed as he may have been in his personal life, remedied that situation."

Sorry, Mulester. As another not-so-honored-poster told you when you asked...this is simply not true. Let's see some examples of Clintons trading equity tariffs. T'aint any I can find. His prime concern before diving nose first into NAFTA was his 'ONE-WORLD' concept and that the environment and the po' folk not suffer. And this pantry opening by Reagan and Bush Sr....same can be said of Clinton and his giveway to the Chinese...our REAL competitors. Not only that, Clinton gave billions away to countries like Mexico to help make them better trading partners. Uh, yeah.... And guess who is taking LOTS of heat for raising bunches o' tariffs. Yep, your personal buddy, Bush Jr.

Political bias continues to get us nowhere, boys. Dem Dems and doz Repubs ALL have their hands in your pockets.

 

[highfihoney]

Im neither a republican or a democrat,infact i'd rather poop my pants as listen to any of them even for a second but Bill Clinton was the all time pimp daddy of the white house.

I wonder if hillary bought his excuse that he gave to us & if she did i'd admire him even more

 

[JAD2]

Now before I begin, I'm gonna keep this within the realms of the UAW, the bad union as I call it. The Big Three for years now has been trying to come to decent terms with its unions knowing market share was dropping, pension plans were going to cost them, health care and other things where costs were rising against there overall base line to pay for them. They then looked for ways to be more cost efficient and looked for the unions and its people help keep make it all happen.
You dont think for one minute the Big Three doesnt know unions with there controlling of product flow and all the other control they have over there plants wasnt making them cost effective. $22 and hour plus bene's floor sweepers, toilet cleaners, on top of poor quality by $22+and hour plus bene's, only make 40% of total production during the day workers.

They knew right were to attack and asked slowly for consessions. Unions said NO WAY!!! Now onto our show!!


""""" we all know President Clinton was instrumental in bringing NAFTA into being....but didn't he also push for higher tariffs on products manufactured outside American soil being brought back into the US to be sold to the American consumers?""""

Yes he did and no argument as to the content of such. The Big Three can with tariffs get there product at much reduced prices then the UAW workers could here produce them at. This is all they wanted to begin with. Who gets the tariff money???? Not you and me, but the Government!! Whether they get it from US citizens in the form of taxes, or in the form of tariffs, makes no different to them!!!



"""""have we not seen foreign car manufacturing plants spring up on American soil in the lower 48?....""""

Yes we have!!!! The tariffs hurt products entering the US, from foreign companies to a point its more profitable to make them here. Good job government, you know replaced those unions lost jobs with lower paying jobs which is what the Big Three wanted in the first place. So now they screwed both the unions and the US car companies and still preserved your tax base!!!


""""American manufacturing companies "tend" to relocate within the borders of the US to start over""

Rarity!!!! But its now becoming a 'Tend" to thing , since watching the foreign car makers find lower cost employees they say, HEY ITS ALLREADY HERE, just didnt look in the right places.


Yup, while the UAW was being greedy, not conceding a thing, the Big Three worked behind their backs for what they wanted, the government helped and learned it can still get its dollars it needs to run. Win-Win situation or so it seemed. Now Bill stopped the Japanese invasion, which is were the US citizens were looking and let the Chinese in to finish it!!!