America vs the rest of the world.

[braminator]

I wanted to start this as this is really what the HD vs Bose is all about in my opinion.

Look at all the American swag out on market. How many items are really USA made. After 9-11 we had flags and ribbon magnets all over the USA. Did you notice not 1 was made in the good ole USA.

See to me, America is smart by going outside the USA for manufacturering, as the DUMBASS foreign companies work cheap and the USA works very expensive.

If we were so great foreign companies would use the USA for manufacturering of their goods. But the USA has unions, and we have to pay ridiculous amounts to a union worker.

How many times have you seen picket lines over not using union workers.
Are union workers any better. I think not.

Perfect example happened here in Walkill NY. Shoprite Grocery chain. They were located in Walkill NY. Notice I said they were. See the Union wanted more benefits and more pay. Some of these unions workers loaded and unloaded trucks making $20+ HR. SO THE COMPANY SAID THEY CAN NOT KEEP UP WITH THE BENEFITS AND PAY. So the union authorized a strike.
So Shoprite(Wakefern) said ok, you strike and get no pay, while we find a new location for our warehouse. So wakefern is making no money and yet the union workers wants more. Wakefern closed shop because of the union and moved it to a less expensive area in PA. Now those striking union workers who felt they needed more money and benefits lost what they had for wanting more.

Just look at the example above. A union worker getting paid $20+hr to do no more or less they the non union worker. The union people can tell you that they work hard for their money. But the person working next to them doing nothing but the minimum amount of work will get the same pay at the end of the day. Even raises are equal. So where is the sense of pride? In your pocket!

America is fat with greed. Starving countries will take anything they can get.
So to work for $1. a day seems like a lot for them.

12 million illegal aliens do most of all our farming for the farmer CHEAPLY, cooking for our diners cheaply, etc... Try to find an american who wants to work for their money.

I think I ranted enough.

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Yes we should all take our examples from the Utopian societies that are Mexico and Nigeria.

 

[braminator]

My examples show that America has become fat and greedy. But hey lets ***** and strike about it.

America is not able to help our own, but we will help the world. Our government over the last 100 yrs has become a business and not a society.

It is no longer about the people as it is about the dollar.

Family values are all but gone. Not in other countries.

 

[Takeereasy]

Unions served a purpose before, and in some cases they still do. I live in a union town, we have GM's corporate HQ and a few of their production facilities right here so this is about as union a city as there ever will be. I don't think a guy deserves to earn $100,000 a year to work on an assembly line (at least not in most cases), but the value of a job should be relative to the money it creates for the company.

The only problem that I have with your post is that it seems skewed to favour white collar workers. It costs a lot to live in an industrialized country. People need to make enough money to live. The arguement that workers in these countries get paid too well and thereby drive the costs up is very true. The double edge of that sword is that if no one makes enough to purchase the finished goods they produce than either the market can't sustain itself, or foreign countries end up being the purchaser of your finished goods and now your country is a 3rd world country wondering how things went wrong.

I also happen to think that government SHOULD be run like a business. Those are my tax dollars. Efficiency should be the order of the day. If Govt. would run the way it was intended then the money to help others would be there alredy IMO.

 

[braminator]

So you live near a GM Plant. Tell me how a person stands in 1 spot all day with an airscrew gun makes $35+ hr? We wonder why the price of cars is so high.

We can also look at the CEO's and managers who are not union, but they get HUGE retirement packages and bonus's for doing there job.

Pretty tough to push a pencil and make $100k a year.

Yes unions were good and stood for something years ago. Today that same union is only concerned with how much in monies and benefits that they can get at the expense of the company. GM and Ford are laying off people and closing plants, but the union still has the nerve to ask for more.

These people making $35hr need more to live. Need better benefits. They want and need at any expense to the company. So now those same people complaing are losing their jobs because the companies cant afford the pay and benefits anymore. So the company should close at the employees expense for wanting more then they have to give.

So some money vs none is the attitude they take.

I am not for Walmart. But the people complain about the benefits. NO ONE is telling them to work at Walmart, if you don't like what you get from Walmart find a new job.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Bram,

Your argument is a monumental one. There is no easy solution. As you know, the US cannot close its borders to the competition. That would wrek havok on the consumer pricing index. The last twenty years or so saw major US companies gearing their goals towards maximizing shareholder profits, and not employee wages and benefits. Unions in time will be a thing of the past. Let them strike. It will only bring their dreaded future that much closer to reality.

As far as people making $35 an hour, or $100,000 a year pushing pencils, what is your point? Most people I know make that, if not more. I'm assuming you're talking about non-degreed individuals.

 

[racquetman]

As far as people making $35 an hour, or $100,000 a year pushing pencils, what is your point? Most people I know make that, if not more. I'm assuming you're talking about non-degreed individuals.

Who the heck do you hang out with? Everyone you know is making six figures??!!

I have a degree in chemistry - I couldn't even dream of making a six figure salary (at least where I live). It is extremely sad that someone with my education makes on average much less than a moron stamping parts or whatever because he's a union employee.

People could make a living with much less money if they didn't think they deserve 2 SUVs, a boat, a vacation home, etc. . . . . Americans certainly are a materialistic bunch, and clearly many have no clue how to manage money.

 

[Takeereasy]

Maybe you missed the part of my post where I said I don't think people working on a line deserve $100k, at least not in most cases. And by the way, the reason cars cost so much is the pension plan that auto workers at unionized shops get. Something like $4500 of every car pumped out by GM is that pension plan. That cost is about half up here in the Arctic of Canada due to universal healthcare (not saying it's the way to go just the way it is up here).

GM canada does not loose money. It breaks even at the minimum and has quality awards out the Wazoo. What was the reward for that? They shut down one of our plants to be fair to the workers in Michigan who's plants cost the company Billions of dollars. Loosing jobs to be fair to a union is BS the way I see it. I don't love unions, at least not the UAW or CAW.

Also my roommate is in Management at GM. Yes he makes good money. In his first performance review he documented how he saved GMC over a Million dollars that year. He's at least matched that every year he's been there. It's a running gag for him. Tell me that that isn't worth $100k a year.

Finally my job is essentially to turn a screwdriver for a living. Sure it's more technical than that but I get compensated reasonably well for my time. I hold two degrees not in my field and a certification in my field. I make a half decent living doing what I do. Am I not entitled to that living simply because I can't use any of the initials after my name in any manner applicable to my field? I have friends that slug their guts out day in and day out for $11-$15hr. They will never be able to afford many of the things I take for granted. They work harder than me but in fields where the renumeration isn't as high. I might feel bad for my friends but they are the ones that put themselves in that position.

I guess to sum up I believe in a free market economy but I do think that Corporate America/Canada can afford to have a bigger heart for many of its employees. Companies posting record sales and profit should not lay-off employees unless necessary. People shouldn't be decimal points in a ledger. Yes people are responsible for their own fate but corporatoins have a duty to act as "good citizens" IMO. I remember when people went to work for a company and they were there for their whole lives. Now people work an average of 7 jobs in a life time (remembered from an HR course I took in college so I may be off a job or 2). I'm on my 4th. Now I acknowledge that market forces and better opportunites play a large roll in job shifting, but so does a lack of commitment to employees on the part of the employeer.

Disclaimer: All this is my opinion, I know others will disagree, especially that strike-buster Buckeye . I know I have some liberal leanings when it comes to workers and their rights, but I am pretty much a conservative at heart.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Who the heck do you hang out with? Everyone you know is making six figures??!!

I have a degree in chemistry - I couldn't even dream of making a six figure salary (at least where I live). It is extremely sad that someone with my education makes on average much less than a moron stamping parts or whatever because he's a union employee.

No, not everyone, but most of my peers are making at least $35/hr (~$73,000/yr). I think we happened to get into the right fields. A few of my friends are in engineering, a few are physicians, some are sales reps (myself included), and some management. My wife's a PT, and her friends are all PT's. Heck, RN's here make over $40/hr. A lot of family members are in the dental field. Have you seen what they're paying dental hygenists?

 

[racquetman]

No, not everyone, but most of my peers are making at least $35/hr (~$73,000/yr). I think we happened to get into the right fields. A few of my friends are in engineering, a few are physicians, some are sales reps (myself included), and some management. My wife's a PT, and her friends are all PT's. Heck, RN's here make over $40/hr. A lot of family members are in the dental field. Have you seen what they're paying dental hygenists?

Ya, I thought about getting into a medical field, but, alas, I hate dealing with people (and their bodily fluids) .

 

[braminator]

Degree or not. Does having a degree give experience? So why should someone with experience get less then someone with a degree and no experience?

4500 per car for employee benefites is insane. So think of how cheap some of the cars would be knowing that.

This boggles my mind how this country is run and to see the middle class get further behind.

The rich never worry, they have the money and the poor never worry, because they have the government helping out.

Where is the help for the middle class.

Like the person above said. He has friends working their ***'s off for less pay then I am sorry to say pushing a pencil.

 

[Mort Corey]

.

If we were so great foreign companies would use the USA for manufacturering of their goods.

Like Honda, BMW & Nissan to name a few? Maybe not all their goods, but they do all have a sizeable presense in manufacturing in the US.

Though I tend to agree about the union rant to some degree, the US government tends to distort markets with its policies and regulations which in turn increase costs. Throw in debasement of the currency and a good part of what might be considered exhorborant wages are merely a reflection of inflationary factors created by government.

Mort

 

[braminator]

How many of you knew that Toyota and Honda are made in the good ole USA.

Thats right boys and girls. That Japanese car is not so Japenese. The parts might be, but the labor sure the hell is not.

Toyota was smart. Instead of paying taxes and high tarriffs to our one sided government when shipping the cars in, it was cheaper to build them here.

Hyundai was smart. Take a look at the new Hyundai plant in the USA. They spent millions building it to offset the tarriffs imposed by our government.

So when the USA has foreign country competition in the marketplace they tax these companies to death.

Why, because UNION emloyees WANT TOO MUCH for the same job elsewhere.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

braminator: Degree or not. Does having a degree give experience? So why should someone with experience get less then someone with a degree and no experience?

Does having a degree or an education help one learn quicker, or teach values, or open the mind? Who doesn't benefit from an education? An education paves the road for experience.

I guess it depends if you want a blue collar or white collar job. Those who make big money in a blue collar job usually have to do it with odd hours or overtime. Plus, there is the possibility of a layoff. Time is money, and only an education can be an insurance policy against such things as layoffs or closings.

4500 per car for employee benefites is insane. So think of how cheap some of the cars would be knowing that.

So buy foreign cars.

This boggles my mind how this country is run and to see the middle class get further behind. The rich never worry, they have the money and the poor never worry, because they have the government helping out. Where is the help for the middle class.

How should we run the country? Give the middle class free handouts? There is more opportunity in this country than anywhere else in the world. No one is holding a gun to peoples heads to live in BFE where the jobs are few and far between. Why do you think so many immigrate here, and for the type of wages they do. There is no reason one can't obtain student loans, and get some type of degree in either a two year type trade school, or a 4yr degree. Without an education, you'll have to rely on experience and hope to God that company doesn't sell out to someone else. With an education, job hopping is part of the game in todays society. The first thing your Econ professor will tell you is to expect to work several different jobs in the course of your career. They weren't kidding.

Takeereasy: I have friends that slug their guts out day in and day out for $11-$15hr. They will never be able to afford many of the things I take for granted. They work harder than me but in fields where the renumeration isn't as high. I might feel bad for my friends but they are the ones that put themselves in that position.

Ah, a conservative at heart.

I guess to sum up I believe in a free market economy but I do think that Corporate America/Canada can afford to have a bigger heart for many of its employees. Companies posting record sales and profit should not lay-off employees unless necessary. People shouldn't be decimal points in a ledger. Yes people are responsible for their own fate but corporatoins have a duty to act as "good citizens" IMO.

We all wish that were the case, but keep in mind, many in America are funding their retirement, investing in stocks and bonds based on those record sales and profits. Gone are the days of local companies that do give a hoot for their employees (at least at the top ranks). Multi-national corportations now battle each other, buying for pennies on the dollar from second and third world countries - industry and service.

There's no doubt money could be better spent here in the US as opposed to elsewhere. That's why we elect officials to direct that money towards our best interests. It's just a bit tougher when religion and guns have already sided with one party - no matter what other policies may bring.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

braminator: How many of you knew that Toyota and Honda are made in the good ole USA.

Um, you're kidding, right?

Thats right boys and girls. That Japanese car is not so Japenese. The parts might be, but the labor sure the hell is not.

It's Japanese, not Japenese. Remember, pave the road.

Toyota was smart. Instead of paying taxes and high tarriffs to our one sided government when shipping the cars in, it was cheaper to build them here.

Hyundai was smart. Take a look at the new Hyundai plant in the USA. They spent millions building it to offset the tarriffs imposed by our government.

So when the USA has foreign country competition in the marketplace they tax these companies to death.

It's tariff, not tarriff.

That didn't make any sense. Are you saying localities tax US/foreign companies on US ground to death, or that tariffs are the death of these companies?

Why, because UNION emloyees WANT TOO MUCH for the same job elsewhere.

What job are you talking about? The one Honda in Marysville, OH is paying $25 an hour for?

 

[braminator]

Does having a degree or an education help one learn quicker, or teach values, or open the mind? Who doesn't benefit from an education? An education paves the road for experience.

I guess it depends if you want a blue collar or white collar job. Those who make big money in a blue collar job usually have to do it with odd hours or overtime. Plus, there is the possibility of a layoff. Time is money, and only an education can be an insurance policy against such things as layoffs or closings.

That is not always the case. Experience comes with an education also.

So buy foreign cars.

I do. Because any and all Domestic cars lose money faster then other Jap brands. IMO because people know that our cars are garbage. I bet every single person on this forum as had 1 bad domestic car. Cant say the same for Jap cars.

How should we run the country? Give the middle class free handouts? There is more opportunity in this country than anywhere else in the world. No one is holding a gun to peoples heads to live in BFE where the jobs are few and far between. Why do you think so many immigrate here, and for the type of wages they do. There is no reason one can't obtain student loans, and get some type of degree in either a two year type trade school, or a 4yr degree. Without an education, you'll have to rely on experience and hope to God that company doesn't sell out to someone else. With an education, job hopping is part of the game in todays society. The first thing your Econ professor will tell you is to expect to work several different jobs in the course of your career. They weren't kidding.

Well now look how your reaction was. I bet you are not in the middle class.

We are not looking for handout like the Lower and Higher class. Less taxes for the rich who can afford it. Less taxes for the poor who don't pay them or are welfare.

MORE TAXES for the middle class. Yes the upper class is in a different tax bracket. Hell they pay in taxes what my yearly salary is. THEY CAN AFFORD IT.

 

[braminator]

It's tariff, not tarriff.

Tomatoe toma toe. You knew what I meant.

What job are you talking about? The one Honda in Marysville, OH is paying $25 an hour for?

thanks for proving my point. They have to pay ridiculious wages to a USA worker vs a foreign worker.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

braminator: Because any and all Domestic cars lose money faster then other Jap brands. IMO because people know that our cars are garbage. I bet every single person on this forum as had 1 bad domestic car. Cant say the same for Jap cars.

My F150 pickup has 131,000 miles on it. I paid $10,500 for it 5 years ago with 51,000 miles. It's still worth close to $6,000 today. I still have the original engine, transmission, water pump, and alternator (knock on wood). Not all US cars lose their value as quickly if you know when to buy. Some domestic cars are flat out bargains just a few years off the lot (Cadillac, Lincoln, Chrysler). Finding these same bargains with foreign cars is much harder. I tried finding a full size Toyota pickup slightly used, and they were still going for over $20,000 compared to what I paid for an F150. That $10,000 I saved went into the bank for future repairs I thought I would have.

Now, our Honda Pilot only has 41,000 miles, and the A/C stuggles to cool the cabin. There's been a recall, the rear brakes make a "clanking" noise when we back up, and the second row seat doesn't move (my fat @$$ is the problem). This has been our 5th Honda, and the one with the most issues to date. It could be due to a new model, but in my mind, it's because of those damn Cannucks putting it together. JK friends up north. We do like our Pilot - wife already wants another one.

Well now look how your reaction was. I bet you are not in the middle class.

Sure I am. I'm wondering how the hell I'm going to pay for my third kids education. They quit doing education credits, and I don't think our Roths will grow quick enough to pay these exhorbatant tuition costs. Damn if he won't get a scholarship playing golf. Hey, there's always student loans.

We are not looking for handout like the Lower and Higher class. Less taxes for the rich who can afford it. Less taxes for the poor who don't pay them or are welfare.

How about a flat 14% tax? I'm all for that.

MORE TAXES for the middle class. Yes the upper class is in a different tax bracket. Hell they pay in taxes what my yearly salary is. THEY CAN AFFORD IT.

So after breaking my back going to college, paying off huge student loans, and struggling in the corporate world in my third job, why should I have to foot the bill and pay more taxes? Isn't 28-33% of my income enough? After my parents struggled to put us kids through college, making sacrifices to get us to the next level, we should foot the bill? I think parents who made those sacrifices would disagree, as would those who worked so hard to get where they are. It's the same with the 35 year GM employee who makes $95,000 a year. Although he may be middle class (yes, that's still middle class), he doesn't want to pay the taxes for his neighbor working at McDonalds as a manager at $43,000 a year in a lower tax bracket. His argument is that he's worked his way up, and deserves a break. At what income level do we say - you pay 40%, you pay 25%, and you pay nothing?

 

[Mort Corey]

.
Isn't 28-33% of my income enough?

If it could only be that low!! That may be the "income tax" part but then you throw in 15% FICA taxes, state taxes, excise taxes and the myriad of other taxes incorporated into every day prices and pretty soon you're talking about real money. For my wife and I, I figure pretty darn close to 60%.....and I ain't "the rich who can afford it" either.

FWIW, the 14% flat tax ain't never gonna fly....the people in power won't give up that much power. Besides, it wouldn't include FICA, state or excise taxes (or user fees) either and you can bet money that it wouldn't stay at 14% for very long anyway....14.2, 14.4, 15......it'd just creep up like the income tax did when it started as only 1% on the evil rich to make them pay "their fair share".

Mort

 

[JAD2]

Does having a degree or an education help one learn quicker, or teach values, or open the mind? Who doesn't benefit from an education? An education paves the road for experience.

I guess it depends if you want a blue collar or white collar job. Those who make big money in a blue collar job usually have to do it with odd hours or overtime. Plus, there is the possibility of a layoff. Time is money, and only an education can be an insurance policy against such things as layoffs or closings.

Quickness in learning has nothing to do with education, it may aid some, but as a blanket statement NO.
What values does it teach???? Most of your values are set well before higher education, even middle school.
Opens the mind??? Again doesnt work as as a blanket statement. I know plenty of people whom have more open of a mind for coming up with new things, solutions etc that never made it to graduation.
Education paving the road for experience is another wild one as a blanket statement.

Yes Blue Collar workers that want to make good money have to WORK for it, not have it handed to them for doing close to nothing at times.

Why should layoffs always fall onto the Blue Collar first????
You take a person, train him, hes got that job nailed, maybe has moved up the ranks so he could cover more areas and so on. If you lay him off, you've lost that expertise forever if he goes elsewhere. He is really not overhead as much as the pencil pusher. The pencil pusher, if he was better at his job, as good as this blue collar worker was at his and lets say sold more product this company provided, would he still need to get laid off???
Believe me you could shed all kinds of white collar workers from any company, make the others pick up slack, since I've have never seen a real full time white collar person EVER. Payroll would be down tremendously over one Blue Collar one!!
Depends on the education for being a insurance policy.

I find this White Collar stuff absolutely funny!! Small companies start of with no White Collar, grow larger and larger and larger, but a Blue Collar mind with ambitions to be more, started the whole thing.Without Blue Collar, do you really think White Collar people could produce product????

Unions suck, plain and simple and because of them White Collar pay got to where its at, they had to be ahead of Blue Collar in monies. Who determined that, White Collar people!!!! I know dam well that guy that busts his *** all day as his boss went golfing, sure the hell didnt!!!!


OK, here is a little story, 100% true, went through it.

I'm in the machine trades industry, YUP, BLUE COLLAR.
We here locally also are for the most part a Union City.
Got Xerox, Delphi, Delco-now Valeo, Kodak-Non Union, but might as well be and many others.

I used to run Davenport screw machines and now run a shop, but will stay at machine operator.
In small shops you can pick how far you'd like to go and climb the ladder if you'd like.
Long story made short , I had a friend after I got up in ranks offer me to get me into Dephi, so I took him up on it knowing very little other than the pay scale.
I could operate a Davenport
I could troubleshoot one.
I could set one up.
I could rebuild one.
Make my own oil lines
Sharpen my own tooling
Could make emergency ones of certain types if needed.
If I tripped a circuit, I could reset it
And more, that made me in the small shop setting a Foreman.

Guess what I was at Delphi, a what we call stock jockey. Just put stock in machine and check parts, thats it. Now operators in job shops, sharpen their own tooling, that a basic requirement of one. Oil lines and other minor things were also part of the job.

See that list up over this??
Delphi had each of these jobs assigned to SHITLOADS of people.

I went in there and before I could join the union, had to prove myself worthy. I did just what I always had done and had my toolbox welded shut. Lunch disappear and was warned its OK now, but after you get accepted you no longer can do this, this is a warning. Your production also cannot be allowed to surpass 40% of the total it is rate for.
OK, so when can I move up to something just a little bit more challenging, other than stand here with my finger up my backside??? Well sir, seniority rules and if a job opens and someone with seniority on you has first opportunity!!!
I looked around at the morons there that had no idea how to do most everything I could allready do and knowing I was last in, LEFT, TAKE THIS JOB AND SHOVE IT. The White Collar dude I just said that too says, you'd really go back to making less??? Yes, I'll die of boredom here!!!!