Alright, I'm back and YOU were right...

[breaks911]

Ok, so several months ago we talked about setting up multi-room audio in my new house on the cheap. Well, my cheapness has once again proven to make my life harder than necessary. So in brief, I have a 3.1 HK setup in my great room (rear sats from original 5.1 damaged in move). Upstairs, I have 2 100W ceiling speakers(forget brand) installed and then 2 jamo 3A2's (100w i think) on the patio.

As is today, all this is powered (somewhat) by my cheap-o Sony HTIB. I have a Monster speaker selector the 2 Front channels in the GR Room, upstairs, and patio speakers connect to. This allows my wife to listen to audio upstairs and downstairs simultaneously. That is, until the Sony overheats and goes into PROTECT...which is about 10 mins. Even when just using the upstairs zone and using the overload protector on the selector.

Rarely are we trying to power all 3 zones simultaneously. 99% of the time, just powering 2 zones.

Ok, so I've decided to attempt to solve this. 95% of the time, this setup will be tuned to FM 97.9 in Columbus or listening to Wheels on the Bus. Rarely do we use the receiver when watching TV. My 5 yr old plays XBOX games occasionally. However, I do want good quality and the ability to crank up some Finding Nemo or Blue's Clues if I want.

So not only do I need a new receiver, I'm also considering replacing my front HK sats with free-standing towers, for better quality. B/c we're not hard core audiophiles, I'm hoping maybe some decent towers could eliminate the need for the HK sub that my wife despises (ugly thing with no good place to hide). So yes, this is all for my wife for the most part. I work all the time and can't enjoy this stuff.

Alright last piece here, which is probably a stretch...I'm hoping I can rig this up in 1 receiver. I really don't have room for an external amp in my current ent. center. If I must, I could attach the patios to an amp, I would just have to relocate the amp to a separate room. (Not a big problem, have 50' of slack in the speaker wires dangling in the basement).

So my friends, I need some help. Talked to the guy at Best Buy and he said, "Dude, BOSE is the only way to go man, for sure." Yeah, whatever. I think I'll buy other sound equipment. I've got no more than $1,000 to invest in this.

Hopefully, the doctor is in today. Thanks all in advance!!!!

Ryan

 

[jcPanny]

Whole house audio

First, good call on the Bose. It is very overpriced and will not power anything other than those little cube speakers.

What you need is a 7.1 channel receiver that has "Zone 2" capability and an assignable amplifier that can be used for the surround back channels or zone 2.

For about 600-$700. The Yamaha RX-V2500 and Denon 3805 are good mid-fi receivers that will do this and much more. If you want to spend less, then look for the RX-V1500 or RXV-657 which both have zone 2, but with less powerful amplifiers.

You cannon directly connect 3 pairs of speakers to a single pair of amp channels on the receiver. If you do this, it would cause the receiver to seen an impedence of 8 ohms / 3 speakers = 2-3 ohms. This will cause the receiver to draw too much current, get hot, and go into shutdown like you are describing with your current Sony. A common way to solve this is to use impedence matching volume controls in each room. It sounds like your speaker selector box may also have this feature built in. Keep in mind that the impedence matching circuit will divide the receivers available power amoung 2, 4, or 8 pairs of speakers. The speakers in each room will receive 100-120 Watts / 4 = 25-30 Watts which will be plenty for background music. If you want to send 100 Watts to each speaker then you will need a distribution amplifier with a seperate amp channel for each speaker.

For some inexpensive floorstanders, look at speakers from Athena or BIC. The Athena AS-F2 for example would be a major upgrade over your current speakers and the 2 8" woofers will probably play to lower frequencies than your current sub. You can find them for about $400.
For a hight price and performance level, check out Axiom Audio.

Good luck.

 

[j_garcia]

$1K should be able to get you exactly what you need in a receiver and 3 speakers. A $500 receiver and $500, or something in that range, possibly a bit more toward the receiver based on the work it is going to need to do. You will need a receiver that is 7.1 capable to be able to run zone 2, and you will need an impedance matching volume control or switch to allow you to drive multiple pairs of speakers off that zone.

Maybe look at something like the Onkyo TX-SR602 or 603 or one of the current Yamahas in your price range, possibly the 5890, which is going for about $500 right now.

For three speakers, the Polk Monitor line are on sale right now within your budget. JBL Northridge-E can also be had well within your range online from somewhere like www.ecost.com or www.jr.com .

For just a pair, the Infinity Primus speakers or the Athenas mentioned should be fine. The AS-F2.2 (current model) can be had for $399 at www.audioadvisor.com

 

[Takeereasy]

Nice post JCpanny. I agree with you all the way really. I do think that there is a way around needing the extra amp, although it is less than elegant, lol. My receiver has both zone 2 and A/B speaker selection ability. Can't breaks911 assign the upstairs speakers or the patio speakers as B speakers and then set up his receiver to send only a stereo signal when sending info to the B speakers? He could even get an IR repeater and have sources in the bedroom or outdoors. I would prefer he went with the extra amp idea because it is easier. My receiver also allows for zone 3 but it is not powered for it. Just spitballing here.

I also agree that BIC and Athena represent high value/performance for the dollar. You need to be careful upgrading your towers though. Floorstanders will overpower a HTIB center, and the 3 speakers will not be timbre matched. I'd still go your route and upgrade to towers first, but you will need to upgrade that center in time. Make sure you can get a matching center for the towers you choose.

As for receivers I'd say a Yamaha 1500 or a Denon 2805 or a Marantz 7400 would all serve your purpose. Good luck with your purchases, hope it all works out for you.

 

[breaks911]

Wow, thanks for all the great advice. I ran over to the local high-end audio store and talked to those geniuses. They recommended the following configuration that I'd like your opinion on:

5.1 and upstairs speakers (using 6&7 channel) attached to Denon 1906. Totally detach everything from the Sony HTIB except the patio speakers. Then, from the CD-Player (which is primarily used for outdoor music), connect both digital and analog into the Denon, then use the VCR or CD OUT from the Denon to the Sony. The Sony could then use all power on the 2 patio speakers. OR, just connect CD-Player to both Denon AND Sony and not have to worry with cross-connecting the receivers.

They quoted $499 for the 1906. As for speakers, they've got a pair of Energy C-5's they'll sell for $400. So I'm right at $900 plus tax.

No one from the forum recommended the 1906, so that kind of worries me. What do you think of their suggestion?

Thanks again!!!!

 

[j_garcia]

1905 should do fine as well. Their plan sounds like a winner to me, and it's in your budget. I didn't even think of using the HTiB to power zone 2 or other speakers.

 

[jcPanny]

B&M Dealer

If you are more comfortable with a local dealer, then that sounds like a good option. If you are willing to buy online from authorized dealers then you can do better for the money.

The $500 reciever models listed above like the Yamaha RX-V1500 and Yamaha HTR-5890 are closer in features in performance to the Denon 2805(or 2806). This is a couple steps up the food chain from the 1906 model that the dealer has for $500.

The extra amp channels from a mid-fi receiver are going to privide more power your HTIB and it seams like a single set of sources (1 tuner, 1 CD, etc.) would be desirable for playing the same source to all zones.

 

[breaks911]

on the way to pull the trigger....

JcP, I'm a little confused. Will the Yamaha 1500 you referenced allow me to connect all 3 zones, or do I still need to use the speaker selector and/or HTiB. I know you attempted to explain this already, but I'm still a little confused.

I checked out the Yamaha review and I see there's a A/B speaker outputs as well as additional Zone2 outputs, but I'm unclear if I can have the towers on A, upstairs on B, and patio on Zone 2... Thanks for your help!!

Ryan

 

[jcPanny]

Speaker connections continued.

Sorry for the confusion. I was trying to indicate that the Zone 2 amp in a receiver like the Yamaha RX-V1500 will probably output more clean power than your HTIB.

In terms of inpedence matching circuits (in volume control or speaker selector) this will be necessary any time that more than one speaker is connected to a single amp channel. The Yamaha (and Denon) cannot run the A and B speakers at the same time because they share the same amplifier. However, it would be possible to run the B speakers (upstairs) at the same time as the center and surround speaker (downstairs) and the Zone 2 (patio).
The best method for running all speakers at the same time would be to connect to the zone 2 amp and impedence matching controls.

If you are using the HTIB for one pair of speakers than you wont have to worry about volume controlls or speaker selectors.

 

[breaks911]

kaboooooom...

ok, I pulled the trigger. I went back to Genesis Audio (in Columbus, OH..GREAT GUYS) and they convinced me to purchase a Denon 1804 demo unit for $300. I TRIED MY HARDEST to get a 2105 or 2106 (i just hear too many good things about Denon not to give them a try), but they insisted on me not needing to spend the extra $300. Of course, they sold it to me risk-free with guaranteed refund if i do not like.

I understood him wanting to get rid of that floor unit, but I appreciated the fact he didn't want me to spend more money. I had the cash in hand ready to buy something bigger, but he convinced me to try the 1804 first.

Moving onto the speakers...I originally mentioned the Energy C-5's....well, they sold me the C-7's for $100 more. The pair for $499. Seems like a really good deal, considering he's a B&M dealer. He said both demo's come with full factory warranty as he's an authorized dealer.

I haven't hooked up with Denon yet (will take too much time and i'm flat beat.) But, I did go ahead and attach the c7's to the Sony HTIB and they sound great...And that's going thru the speaker-selector as well. Can't wait to hear them straight thru the Denon.

So, total with tax: $870 (needed a few video cables). Will report back how the 1804 is working. Hopefully it will be great!! Thanks for all the advice.

 

[mulester7]

ok, I pulled the trigger. I went back to Genesis Audio (in Columbus, OH..GREAT GUYS) and they convinced me to purchase a Denon 1804 demo unit for $300. I TRIED MY HARDEST to get a 2105 or 2106 (i just hear too many good things about Denon not to give them a try), but they insisted on me not needing to spend the extra $300. Of course, they sold it to me risk-free with guaranteed refund if i do not like.

I understood him wanting to get rid of that floor unit, but I appreciated the fact he didn't want me to spend more money. I had the cash in hand ready to buy something bigger, but he convinced me to try the 1804 first.

Moving onto the speakers...I originally mentioned the Energy C-5's....well, they sold me the C-7's for $100 more. The pair for $499. Seems like a really good deal, considering he's a B&M dealer. He said both demo's come with full factory warranty as he's an authorized dealer.

I haven't hooked up with Denon yet (will take too much time and i'm flat beat.) But, I did go ahead and attach the c7's to the Sony HTIB and they sound great...And that's going thru the speaker-selector as well. Can't wait to hear them straight thru the Denon.

So, total with tax: $870 (needed a few video cables). Will report back how the 1804 is working. Hopefully it will be great!! Thanks for all the advice.

.....great report....let us know......

 

[breaks911]

So far, so good

Got the Denon hooked up after all (couldn't go to bed without making more progress). Have most of the components hooked up. Tomorrow I've got to wire up my surround speakers...I haven't tested the rough-in wiring yet and the wonderful installers didn't label the walljacks...I just don't have it in me tonight. At very low volumes currently (sleeping family) everything sounds really good. I'm aching to crank it tomorrow.

However, I feel really stupid asking this question, but I'll ask anyway and blame fatigue.

On my Sony, the coax FM antenna connection was threaded so I could just screw down my powered antenna...However, no threads on the Denon coax FM connector and I can't figure out how to attach the stupid antenna. The receiver came with some internal FM antenna, but I can't even figure out how that attaches...and I looked at the manual.

Pretty lame, yes I know, but I'll take my newbie lumps. What am I doing wrong here? Thanks!

 

[jaxvon]

Sounds like an excellent dealer. He saved you on the receiver, then told you to put more money into the thing that really counts at this level...the speakers.

 

[MDS]

On my Sony, the coax FM antenna connection was threaded so I could just screw down my powered antenna...However, no threads on the Denon coax FM connector and I can't figure out how to attach the stupid antenna. The receiver came with some internal FM antenna, but I can't even figure out how that attaches...and I looked at the manual.

What brand of antenna? Most powered antennas have the proper 75 Ohm connector that looks like the F connector at the end of a coaxial cable. It should just push on to the antenna jack on the receiver. If you have a 300 Ohm antenna you need a 300 Ohm to 75 Ohm matching transformer.

 

[breaks911]

Omg

yeah, I'll check it out again in a bit when I hook up the surrounds...Probably something stupid I was doing from being so tired. Well, here's the update thus far:

Those speakers really have some a$$! At low listening levels, the audio is clear, but nothing to get excited about. However, when I drive it up to about -30db on the Denon, holy crap!!!!!!! They're move the friggin house and are CRYSTAL clear. Not bad for 90watt receiver.

Now onto the original reason for all this. I've got the Energy's set @ Speaker A, the upstairs @ Speaker B, and the patios on Zone 2. All work simultaneously, so long as I don't try to crank it...Denon shuts down around -40db with all speakers firing. A&B are same source, Zone2 can be different source. So far, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!

However one strange thing. When I select just the upstairs speakers, I can't drive it much past -46db or so without the Denon shutting down. Just that pair is active and they don't get very loud. I know the speakers are rated at least 100 watts, so I'm a little puzzled. Any ideas as to why I can't go louder?

I'm just now realizing I should've created a blog to chronicle this. I know it's everyday stuff for y'all, but this is a major milestone for me. Thanks for sticking with me and helping out...


Ryan

 

[AVRat]

For starters, the 1804 is only a 6.1 channel unit. A 7.1 receiver is needed to get true stereo output for zone 2 (unless a separate stereo amp is used). More than likely the reason it shuts down driving all speakers is because speakers A & B run off the same amps and are being overloaded from an impedance standpoint (pg 16/18). Can’t tell from the manual why the output is limited when only speaker B is used. You might try hooking the Energies to the B outputs and see if you get similar results.

 

[Eric Apple]

On shutdown issue

Double check you don't have a short somewhere. I had the same type of shutdown issue and it was a short. The speakers would still play fine, but a single wire stand was shorting in a room where no speakers were yet installed. I assumed a short would result in no speaker output at all, and I was wrong.

 

[breaks911]

The amp the amp the amp is on fire.

After a little over two weeks of listening, the 1804 starting smoking last night. I was listening to music at about -35db while having speakers a+b engaged when the receiver went into protect. It has been doing this frequently when driving the B speakers beyond -25db. However, we have spent many hours already listening to both a+b with no issue. When I turned the recv back on, a poof of smoke shot out of the chassis and the unit shutdown again.

At this point, it will no longer power up and stay on. I don't understand why this happened as it's been working fine. I'm going to take it back to the dealer and try to get a refund -- i was using it exactly as they had advised me. Unfortunately, they don't have anything comparable for less than $550 or so, which would be a 1906 (less powerful than the 1804) so I think I'm going to try to find a Yamaha 1500.

One last question for you all...I'm worried about the correlation of the B speakers having shut down the amp before at relatively low listening levels (-25 - 30db). These B speakers are in the upstairs ceiling. Another reader had advised connecting the floors to the B connectors on the amp, which I had not tried yet, in an effort to isolate a short. Is there any other way to identify a short? Using a multimeter maybe?

Thanks for all your help!

 

[HowY]

Just a personal thing...

The mistake 'ya made was using a speaker selector switch...
(monster... umm ok) as opposed to an impedance matching
setup

The protect issue is IMPEDANCE overload since there
seems to be no matching L-pads (transformers)

Why not volume controls..?

Got several cheap volume controls running 6ohm... 4ohm
and 8ohm pairs all powered by a old pro-logic reciever
I had lyin' about... it screams and never protected yet
even with the whole system cranked... (gets hot aplenty)

Perhaps a rethink of your distribution...
-- or really high impedance drivers (use 8ohm as min)

From one capital city buckeye to another...

 

[Eric Apple]

Yes - you can use a multimeter

Well at least you still have a sense of humor. You can check for a short using a multimeter. Disconnect the speaker wires from the receiver. Then use a low ohm range on 1 pair of wires, and read the ohms.

You should read 8+ ohms for an 8 ohm speaker, or 4+ ohms for a 4 ohm speaker since you don't have volume controls.

If you have two 8 ohm speakers on one wire, then you should read 4+ ohms.

Also note, that some in ceiling speakers have variable impedence. Those that have a switch for +3 db switch for the low end, often have dual voice coils that offer 4 ohms for +3 db, 8 ohms for flat.

Anything less then about 7 ohms for an 8 ohm speaker is suspect.

If your reading is low, then go take a speaker out of the ceiling and disconnect the wires going to it. Measure the speaker's ohms where you plug in the wires, they should be slighly less then you read at the other end of the wire with the speaker connected.

If the speaker reads higher, you can measure the ohms of the wires hanging from the ceiling now with the speaker and the receiver disconnected. If it reads other then full open, ou have a short.

If using volume controls, you have to start disconnecting wires from it first. PS.. Same goes for a speaker switch.