AHHH! freaking out about new set up

[gggooolllooo]

its too late to try things right now so ill have to wait until tmmro to mess with things more. I listen to dubstep and stuff though and kind of like when bass takes over a bit but not too much. also, i have had the crossover set to in instead of out. I have my speakers crossing over at around 80 hz and my sub crossing at 90. I tried getting a picture through the receiver but to no avail. I promise i have read both the receiver and the subs manuals but each of them seem short and lacking detail. I am running all the speakers through 16 gauge wire and yes there are a lot of wires on top of each other behind my dresser including the subwoofer cable. I did get the sub to hit some middle notes earlier but they are entirely overwhelmed by vibration and low end thumps. If push comes to shove and i just don't like the sound of this sub is the psw505 or bic-f12 going to give me a sub sound im more used to? I want to believe this sub can magically become into greatness but im having a hard time doing it. or perhaps my sub is defective...

I have run the multiEQ and it has helped, im understanding it more and more (right now my rears are louder than they should be). Come to think of it, I think that humming out of the left A25 stopped after running multiEQ. I managed to figure out how to fashion my rear speaker cables along the edges of my ceiling so they are no longer a part of the mess of cables behind my dresser, the rears sound great! and i got them for $5 at a rummage sale so im quite happy with those. They do not hiss in the least. The only hissers are my A25's which i want to be the loudest of my speakers. My center speaker is some unlabeled bookshelf speaker that i got for $2.50 at the same rummage sale and that is doing okay. its not the best but hey... $2.50 c'mon. I am also in the possession of two old jvc speakers i eventually want to hang from the ceiling in the middle of my room. those were $5 for the pair too. I'm not expecting as much out of those as the A25's and especially the MK4. I did my research for months and thought i was up for the challenge and capable but it seems i am a newb to newbs. I know my equipment has been used to sound amazing in rooms three times my size which is something i can't get over. How im having such a difficult time powering this 15x15 room with unrelenting and consuming above average audio. I'm doing my best to be patient haha trust me. Don't know exactly how much more of this i can take even though returning would be a fat net loss due to shipping.

First Reflection, I just want to thank you some more for helping me so much and calming me down a bit. I cant tell you how very very very much i do appreciate it thank you sir

 

[gggooolllooo]

and so even if the subs crossover limit is 90hz i can put the speakers crossover to like 120hz and have the bass come up to that by setting it through the receiver? or even push it to 150hz? I flipped my sub upside down to see the woofer reactions and the thing has barely flinched no matter what i played, like it did not move or vibrate much at all. I just really dont like the flow between sub and speakers at the moment. I vastly enjoy comp speakers integration between sub and speakers. Like how the sub is apparent in almost every note of the music. its more immersive in my opinion. If the sub only comes in at the lows and mid lows than i dont feel as consumed or taken over by it. I want to ride the music through the bass and this bass is currently just thumping at the constant beat and making a slight noise for whats in between. if i turn it up more everything sounds the same, THUMP THUMP THUMP THUUUUUUUMP THUMPTHUMPTHUMP THUUUUUUUUMP THUMP THUMP instead of BUM BE THUMP BA BO BUUUUUUM BAH BAH BAH BUM THUMP DE BUM BUM BOH BOH THUMP BEEEEEEEP BAH BAH. haha was kind of just having fun with that last part but also haha

 

[gggooolllooo]

AH! MORE PROGRESS!!! I re-did the auto eq with bass precisely as it mentions in its manual (thought i did this before) and now have the sub sealed and set on EQ2 for Sealed Max Headroom. I also made the crossover on the receiver be at 150hz for the sub and the rest of my speakers as well. THe bass still has to be turned up just past half volume to get the effect i want but it sounds oh so much better with my rock, indie, and alternative bass! like a lot better! still wish volume was louder but im actually starting to feel happy about my set up

I think having the GRAMMA will help tremendously, it can't come any faster!! ahhhhhhhh! i feel so effin right now. its paying off a bit RIGHT NOW! still could use some tweaking but hey! MO FREAKIN PROGRESS!!!
You helped so much First Reflection!

 

[caper26]

Glad to see it is coming along. You could also (after auto EQ) bump up the trim on the subwoofer volume in Set-up. Also, are your mains set to Small or Large in setup? The crossover on the back of the sub should be turned ALL the way up to allow the receiver to handle the crossover bass management.

 

[FirstReflection]

Hey, I'm really glad to hear you're making progress!

Yup, it's definitely trial and error, a lot of back and forth, and it can be a pretty big hassle. I don't blame you at all for being frustrated! Not everyone would have put in the time and been this patient, so I really commend you for that.

So...yes, having the cross-over on the subwoofer set to "in" instead of "out" would have been part of the problem. Basically, the cross-over is not a "brick wall". It is a filter that makes the sound get quieter and quieter above the frequency that is selected as the cross-over for the subwoofer. When you have the cross-over on the subwoofer set to "in", then it is applying its own filter ON TOP of the filter that the receiver is applying. So you get a super fast drop off when you have BOTH filters being applied. With the cross-over switch on the subwoofer set to "out", you only get one filter being applied - the one inside the Denon receiver. And that's the way it should be. Only one filter

Having a big mess of cables is also very common, and it can cause problems because you get different signals interfering with each other. Good cables have a nice, thick shield around them so that they block out any stray signals from other cables, wires or signal travelling through the air (radio, WiFi, etc.). Speaker wire typically does not use a shield because the signal going through a speaker wire is quite high in power. It is more likely to CAUSE a problem in other cables than to pick up noise FROM other cables itself. That said, actual electrical power cables are carrying the highest power of all, so if you have a speaker wire right on top of a power cord, you can often get a loud hum in the speaker, since the speaker wire is picking up the 60Hz hum from the power cord.

16 AWG speaker wire should be fine. You're in a small room, so you don't have any super lengthy runs of speaker wire. You might want to consider getting some new cables and taking a bit of time to better manage where all of your cables are placed though. If you go to monoprice.com you can get really good, nicely shielded cables of every type for very low prices. I don't know for sure, but I'm thinking you might have a few very cheap, poorly shielded cables in your setup. I honestly still wonder about the subwoofer cable you are using because some of the problems you described before really, really sound like a cable defect problem. So maybe just a new subwoofer cable will help you - although I can't be sure. They're very inexpensive from monoprice though, so it can't hurt

If your room is actually 15' x 15', that is definitely part of the problem! If you are familiar with any type of resonance, you will understand about standing waves. At certain frequencies, the sound waves will come out of the subwoofer and be at just the perfect wavelength where they propagate out from the subwoofer, reach a wall, bounce back off of that wall, and perfectly "double up" right back on top of the original wave. When you have two dimensions of your room being exactly the same - like 15' x 15', you end up with the exact same standing wave in two directions, which makes it even worse! That would explain why you hear such a loud thumping at certain frequencies and then everything else is much, much quieter. Unfortunately, there isn't really anything you can do to correct that, other than get a second subwoofer. And even that won't really help very much if your room is truly a square. About the best thing you could do would be to position the subwoofer as close to your seat as possible.

Putting the subwoofer into sealed mode - like you did - will help because it's in the lower frequencies where you get the most standing waves and build up of resonance in a small room. So limiting the very low bass output will help, and using the sealed mode does that.

If there is any chance of rearranging your room in the future, that's something you'll want to try. For now, I don't really know where else in the room you could possibly put the subwoofer. But you are for sure getting some standing wave problems. Like I say, if at all possible, just get the sub as close to your seat as you can.

I'm thinking you maybe didn't get the full user manual for the Denon AVR-1712. They often only pack in a "quick start guide" in the box these days. So click that link I just made. That's the full user manual from Denon's website, and it's anything but short! You might find some additional help in there.

Here's also the full user manual for the HSU VTF-2 MK4. It's not nearly as long, but you might have just got a "quick start guide" in the box with the subwoofer as well. Most manufacturers seem to only be putting the full user manuals on their websites these days

Finally, it definitely sounds as though you got used to a WAY higher cross-over frequency with your old computer speakers, as expected I would encourage you to run that THX Optimizer bass sweep and get as smooth and even a sound, all the way from 200Hz down to 20Hz as you can. And then just let yourself get used to the far more accurate sound of the bass.

It can be tough. Once you're used to a certain sound, naturally, you just come to expect it and it just sounds "right" to you. Folks who are really into car audio are often this way. They hear a genuinely accurate sound system and they think the bass is just way too quiet and nothing has the slam or impact that they are expecting.

Getting used to accurate sound reproduction is a lot like getting used to an accurate picture on a TV. The accurate picture often looks dull and too dim to a lot of people because they've been used to a much brighter, overblown image that so often comes right out of the box without any adjustment. But just like the more accurate picture, once you live with it for a while, you start to notice all the details that you could never see or hear before. All the stuff that was masked by the overblown image or sound.

I checked up on the Boston A25 speakers a little bit more (haven't heard them myself), and they do seem to be described as being a bit bass shy and not having a lot of impact or output in the bass. So a higher cross-over frequency of around 100 or 120Hz does actually seem about right. I think what you're finding with the 150Hz cross-over is probably closer to what you were used to with the computer speakers, but I highly doubt it's more accurate, or what the bass should actually sound like, to be honest

Again, use that THX Optimizer bass sweep. It's the easiest and best tool to quickly hear what's going on with your bass and what's going on in the transition between your speakers and your subwoofer. Try a bunch of different cross-over frequencies and run the THX bass sweep each time to hear the difference. Again, you're aiming for the smoothest, most even-sounding sweep from top to bottom. It should all sound exactly the same loudness throughout and be seamless from top to bottom.



I think you're on your way though! So maybe try some new cables from monoprice. Definitely try to clean up your cable mess. Don't have any cables or wires running right on top of or parallel with power cords. If a cable or wire needs to go over a power cord, run them at right angles to one another. Or just get as much space between them as possible.

You can read the full user manuals now. There might be some helpful info in them for you.

See if there's any way to try some different subwoofer positions, especially anything that puts the sub close to your listening position.

I think the sealed option is probably a good choice for your room. Make sure to keep the cross-over switch set to "out", not "in".

And get a THX labelled DVD or Blu-ray and use that THX Optimizer bass sweep! It'll be really easy to hear what the bass is doing in your room that way. Once you've got it as smooth and even and seamless as possible, just give yourself some time to get used to the more accurate bass. You might not notice the subwoofer as much as you used to with your old computer speakers. But that's as it should be! It should all sound seamless - as if those little A25 speakers were huge tower that can play right down to 20Hz all on their own! That's the illusion you should be after. And once you let yourself get used to it, you'll start to notice all the detail that was missing and just how overblown most other systems - and your old system - really are/were!

 

[ParadigmDawg]

I haven't really read this entire thread but it sounds like his AVR is still set on "large". Make sure they are set to small.

 

[zieglj01]

HT Labs,
The Boston A25 speakers are –3dB at 73 Hz, and –6dB at 58 Hz.

 

[gggooolllooo]

I am at the point where im about to give up on this. I absolutely hate and can't understand how "such a great sub" can sound so bad. Its better, hitting more notes and what not but whew, im tired of talking about it almost. I really like want to return it and buy a subwoofer that is better for music. I dont care all that much that it can go crazy low. The subwoofer cable is now away from all other cords and i still get heavily over saturated deep low bass. Also sometimes the music on my speakers drops down for what seems like no reason. Oh! and yes all my speakers are set to small. the thing that angers me about this sub is that it does not hit any notes evenly so when a dubstep song is played all the sounds of the bass sound pretty much the same. This sub sounds the same-ish from its lowest to its highest. So much of the sub notes that sounded so cool on logitech crap only play through the fronts. I know for a fact the logitech could easily fill my room and its odd that this cant fill it as much rattle it. it doesnt seem to have any "~" effect to my room just more "-_-_". Maybe the floorboards are absorbing all those notes. Maybe its the subs cable but I don't see how exactly it could be. My room is not exactly a square as the ceiling angles pretty dramatically...

okay last way to describe dissapointment in sub: I feel like most of the notes my sub hits can be hit at the same volume and effect by my fronts. honestly that a bunch of bullS$%T even though i realize its more strain on them.

I'm going to talk to HSU tmmro but I might try to get a full refund including shipping on a defective product if I can and just buy a sub more familular to my tastes. this has been an eye opening endevor.

ARG! but i the same time i want to believe!!!

I havent been able to run a THX test yet but I did some bass tests on youtube that showcase how low these can go, its impressive but if music isn't working out than neither is this sub for me.

 

[FirstReflection]

Okey doke. Well you're blaming the wrong thing for your problems. But if that's the way you feel, I won't stand in your way. The most important thing is for you to be happy. I think there is a combination of a lot of problems going on here. I really wish I could just set up the system myself so that I could better understand how it sounds and what all exactly is going on!

I think you've got big time room acoustics problems. I think you likely still have some setup problems. But I think the biggest problem is that you were used to really distorted, really inaccurate sound from your old computer speaker setup.

I'm at a bit of a loss as to what else I can suggest at this point, I'm afraid. I can't tell what your frequency response is like. I'm guessing it looks like a roller coaster rather than a straight, flat line. I can't tell what listening modes you're using or if you have things like Audyssey Dynamic EQ or Dynamic Volume turned on. I can't tell if your sources are even set to output the correct signal types or what connections you are using.

If you'd like, I'd be willing to go through you entire setup with you. One piece at a time. One source at a time. Making sure all connections and settings are correct. Then setting everything correctly in the Denon receiver. And finally, adjusting the speakers and subwoofer at the end of it all.

That's the only way I think I'll feel sure that everything is as it should be. And if the subwoofer still doesn't make you happy after all that, I'll at least know it isn't because of some other error in the setup!

It will be painstaking and take a long time since we'll be going back and forth via text. But I think it's the only way for me to feel really sure that everything is as it should be. I'll send you a PM with my email. It'll be easier to communicate and keep track if you're willing to go through your whole setup like this

 

[gggooolllooo]

I'll take you up on that! Just figured out another way to improve bass in my room...progress, small baby step progress

Maybe break in has a lot to do with it? HSU's need a lot of break in ive heard...

 

[dkane360]

Maybe break in has a lot to do with it? HSU's need a lot of break in ive heard...

There is no way break in will make a sub go from sounding bad to sounding amazing.

Speaking very bluntly, there are 1 of 2 things going on here. The first is that your set up is incorrect and some error was made along the way. More likely though is #2, that you have grown so accustomed to the logitech sound, that your perception of the sound of music has been skewed. Now this is not your fault and is not meant to be an insult, so please don't take it that way. One thing leads to another and suddenly Amar Bose and Dr. Dre are the authorities on sound quality... but I digress.

A subwoofer is supposed to play only low notes. It is not designed to play anything higher. What you seem to be looking for is boosted and artificial bass, which the HSU may not do without some EQ. Songs (including dubstep and the like) do not have nearly as much bass as people think they do. The levels in the song can't be too high, because the artists (or producers?) know that people boost the bass. If the bass is too high on the track, combined with the boosted systems, the result is clipping, distortion, and nothing good. What you may be hearing on your system is closer to what the actual recording is supposed to sound like. But on the other hand, if you turn up the sub and it doesn't completely destroy your logitechs in terms of sound quality and power, then there is something definitely wrong.

FirstReflection: You have continually been a tremendous help to people on Audioholics. Your posts are definitely appreciated!

 

[shadyJ]

Hsu subs are not going to need a break in. A lot of newer dubstep has pretty high bass I have noticed, 90 hz, 100 hz, not frequencies a sub should be doing unless you have multiples. I think this guy might be a good candidate for that Cadence 15" sub, it has no deep bass but boy does it sure have upper bass.

 

[FirstReflection]

Thanks, guys

Yeah, I think there could be a number of issues at play here, which is why I'm going to go through each source one by one with the OP here.

It sounds like he's using a computer as one of his sources. There's a definite possibility that the connections aren't quite right (especially if they're analogue and not optical or HDMI or S/PDIF). It's also entirely possible that the sound card is set to output something that isn't quite right - like maybe using an analogue line out, but then the sound card is set to output 5.1 or is in the "headphone" preset or some such. Gonna have to go through those settings to make sure the complete signal is being sent in the first place!

Then there's the listening mode. If Dolby Pro Logic II is being used, a lot of info is getting sent to the center speaker. And it sounds like the center being used here is a very cheap speaker. A lot of sound info might be getting lost in the center speaker.

There seemed to have been some connection confusion with the Xbox360, so again, need to check what the connections are and what settings are being used.

And yeah, a lot of what people like in dubstep isn't really bass at all! It's lower midrange, and should be coming out of the front speakers, not the subwoofer. A lot of that 100Hz-400Hz stuff likely was coming out of the Logitech sub, but virtually none of it will be coming out of the HSU with a proper 80 or 90Hz cross-over. So I'm thinking that might be the biggest issue of all!

Anywho, we'll go through it one piece and one step at a time and get it sorted. Getting a good sample of a bass sweep is going to be the most telling thing. But even that won't be any help if there are connection errors or setup errors! So I look forward to figuring out what all is going on here and getting it fixed!

 

[ACsGreens]

I vote yes..

FirstReflection- AH poster of the year? Is there such an award. It's not easy to remain patient for some people but you do an incredible job of helping and seem to do so without personal gain. Everyone appreciates your help.

 

[Davemcc]

You don't have to tell me about the frustration of setting up a new component in an audio system...especially subs. I get super bent out of shape when things that are supposed to work don't work. A little patience working through the details can really pay off. I have the Hsu VTF-3 and I find it to be one of the best subs for music. Something is off, whether it's the room dimensions, setup or defective sub. The selection of the Hsu sub was an excellent choice for your intended use.

I hope FR can help you get it all squared away.

 

[KEW]

You don't have to tell me about the frustration of setting up a new component in an audio system...especially subs. I get super bent out of shape when things that are supposed to work don't work. A little patience working through the details can really pay off. I have the Hsu VTF-3 and I find it to be one of the best subs for music. Something is off, whether it's the room dimensions, setup or defective sub. The selection of the Hsu sub was an excellent choice for your intended use.

I hope FR can help you get it all squared away.

I, also, went through the same frustration and learning curve with my first real subwoofer. They really should include a DVD video talking through and demonstrating the basic process of tuning a subwoofer. I bet Hsu and SVS are constantly presenting the process to disgruntled customers over the phone. A 10 cent disk would pay for itself quick enough.

 

[FirstReflection]

I, also, went through the same frustration and learning curve with my first real subwoofer. They really should include a DVD video talking through and demonstrating the basic process of tuning a subwoofer. I bet Hsu and SVS are constantly presenting the process to disgruntled customers over the phone. A 10 cent disk would pay for itself quick enough.

I love that idea! And you're right, it would totally pay for itself in no time with the reduction in customer service calls, returns and additional happy customers who go out and spread the word!

That said, I think one of the most likely problems is that not every receiver uses the exact same labels or methods of adjusting the cross-over and subwoofer setup within its menus. And you know how it can go sometimes: create a guide that's too general and not specific enough, and you'll still end up with a lot of confused folks who can't get it all to work quite right.

And no amount of videos or online chat is going to prepare people's ears for the new lack of distortion and seemingly "missing" bass that used to belt out of their "bass modules" and draw attention to itself.

Honestly, on that front, I think the easiest thing we can do is to get folks to drop about $100 on a good pair of earphones! Even with their tipped up bass end, something like the Shure SE215 could demonstrate to people what their music and movies are supposed to sound like! As I said, they do have a tipped up bass end, but that can be easily mimicked by a small boost to the "bass" control in any receiver if people just get used to that sound

 

[caper26]

talk about frustration. When I got my first sub and 'proper' avr, etc...I was having the same issues. I was sure I was doing everything right, but only a faint sound from the woofer with my ear up to it ! WTF!!??? Anyway, I hooked my audio out (RCA) to the sub instead of pre-out (LFE) of AVR and I almost knocked the walls over... long story short, i re-wrote the firmware of the receiver and re-ran auto setup , and it worked... took me weeks to figure it out.

 

[KEW]

I think one of the most likely problems is that not every receiver uses the exact same labels or methods of adjusting the cross-over and subwoofer setup within its menus.

Yeah, I had considered that.
Even if it was a 5 minute demonstration of the "sub crawl", it would be a good start. As a noob, and wanting to feel the confidence that you are doing it right and not misinterpreting, there is nothing like watching someone do and explain.

But for the AVR's they could either have 5 or 6 separate clips specific to major AVR manufacturers; or just pick one model AVR for the video.
With either of these options you could explain that AVR EQ systems vary, but all of them go through the same basic process of measuring sound then compensating for unwanted effects. Then demonstrate using a specific receiver with the consumer's understanding that they will have different menus and sequences, but the overall process is the same. The EQ systems are not that difficult to implement, but the uncertainty of the unknown is a barrier.

In reality, it is the AVR manufacturers who should do this for their own Auto EQ process. If one of the major manufacturers made a video for their entry level models, did a good job of it, it would be a competitive feature to set that brand apart from so many other similar offerings.