AHHH! freaking out about new set up

[gggooolllooo]

I just bought a denon 1712, boston acoustics a25 fronts and the VTF-2 MK4. I just got it set up and it really doesnt sound that good, especially in the subwoofer department. i have a hardwood floor so i know that it may affect the subwoofer but not this much. its sounds all boomy and i seriously think the logitech z2300 computer speakers are better for only $200 instead of the thousand or whatever this costed. Its driving me crazy and i want to return everything. Is there something I should know to change it. I listen to music mostly and i feel it mostly but i cant hear the bass. I'm really dissapointted and frustrated, please help!

 

[FirstReflection]

Whoo boy...

Okey doke. Take a deep breath

Don't return everything or freak out just yet. I can assure you, the products you described are much, much better than some small, $200 computer speakers! This is a setup, placement and calibration problem. And you're not the first to ever run into something like this, so you're not alone, and we will get this sorted out for you

In regards to the bass problems you are having, you are very likely sitting right in a room mode where you are getting a big old peak due to room resonance. The VTF-2 MK4 is capable of putting out very strong and deep bass, so it is going to interact with your room FAR more than your old computer speaker setup. You've literally never had bass like this in your room before, so there can be a lot to go over in terms of proper setup, placement and calibration.

Good audio is NOT "plug and play". I think a lot of people are expecting that it will or should be. I understand that feeling. But there is a lot going on with audio, and the gear itself is only half of the equation. The room is the other half, and people often don't give any thought to it because they've never needed to before!

So, to start, we need to know all about your room and how you have things placed right now. Pictures or a diagram would definitely be the most helpful. But a detailed description can suffice if you can't upload pictures for us.

I don't know how many options you have for where you can place the subwoofer. If you have several spots in the room where the subwoofer can go, you will want to start by doing a "subwoofer crawl". This involves placing the subwoofer where your seat would normally go (push your seat out of the way for the time being). With the subwoofer in that spot, play some strong bass on repeat. I like to use the THX Optimizer bass sweep set to repeat so that I get a full frequency sweep from 200Hz down to 20Hz.

With that bass playing, go and crouch in all the spots where you could potentially put the subwoofer (this is easier than physically moving the subwoofer to each spot. You're more mobile ). It's called the "subwoofer crawl" because if you have a lot of potential spots for the sub, you can literally just crawl around your room, listening to the bass playing.

What you want to find is the spot where the bass is the most linear. You are NOT looking for just the strongest, loudest spot. What you want is the spot where the entire sweep sounds the most even throughout. So that no portion of the bass is massively louder or quieter than the rest. Once you find that spot, put your subwoofer there and put your seat back into position.

With the subwoofer properly placed (and your front speakers properly placed as well), you can run the Audyssey MultEQ XT auto-setup/EQ in your Denon AVR-1712 receiver. I should note that you want to perform the "subwoofer crawl" with Audyssey turned OFF if you already ran it right away when you first set things up!

When you are running Audyssey, you'll want to make sure that you first set the master volume to 0 (zero) dB. This never gets mentioned in the manual or anywhere online, but I've had enough experience and had enough other people tell me that they've had incorrect readings if they don't set the master volume to 0 (zero) dB before they plug in the mic and start Audyssey.

Once Audyssey has run, check the settings. You should get a summary page of the setting that Audyssey has chosen automatically.

If you notice that Audyssey set the individual dB "trim" level for the subwoofer rather high or low, you will want to adjust the volume knob on the subwoofer itself accordingly. The dB trim level for the sub should be around + or - 3dB from neutral. So if it's above or below that, adjust the volume knob on the subwoofer itself accordingly and run Audyssey again.

Audyssey will also likely set your front towers to "Large" or to a low cross-over frequency like 40Hz or something. You should manually raise that to a 60 or 80Hz cross-over. Some of your bass problems might be due to the front tower speakers being set to "large" or to a very low cross-over frequency.

With proper placement, running Audyssey, and adjusting the final settings manually, you should be able to get this sorted out!

With hardwood floors (or any flooring for that matter), you should highly consider adding decoupling devices underneath your subwoofer especially, but also under your tower speakers. With them coupled to a hardwood floor, you are certain to get a lot of vibrations travelling to other rooms of the house, and also causing unwanted noise within your listening room. The VTF-2 MK4 fits perfectly on an Auralex GRAMMA riser. If the towers have a rubber foot option, that should be sufficient.

Hope that is of some help! And try to get those pics or a diagram to us if you can. I can promise you, returns are unnecessary

 

[gggooolllooo]

Thanks for all that, it should really help.







Here are some pictures. As you can see the sub placement is really its only spot it can be. I have the GRAMMA shipping to me now but i dont see how it will help that much.

haha whew im taking a few deep breaths but here are some more concerns.

I have the sub turned to two thirds or 3/4ths volume and its barely loud, i have no idea how it can't even overwhelm my room with ease. The sub also seems to only hit the bumps of the music and not the more important bass notes inbetween. I just don't see how justification of paying $400 more to get the VTF2 MK4 when i could have gotten the PSW505. I really like my boston A25's but the expensive subwoofer is a enormous let down as of now. Even with it cranked it just sounds boomy and like it has no range. I honestly would rather have the horrible logitech z623 subwoofer connected than this right now, that's how disappointed i am.

Also, when i play music, the middle speaker and the two in my closet don't play at all and sometimes the middle one is the only one that doesnt play.

I realize I have a small room to work with and a college budget but i really stretched my budget and expected amazing.

 

[gggooolllooo]

and this one!
actually im having a hard time uploading a picture with my two back speakers placed in the closet.

 

[gggooolllooo]

I dont want a subwoofer to be subtle. Even with the Gramma I dont think I enjoy the sound of this subwoofer. It may be audiophile great but maybe i like the sound of a cheaper not as tight sub like a logitech or something. I understand they suck but everything i try to do to this sub the overall sound is so small and dull. its not rich or vibrant at all. 1000W max gone to waste if you ask me. turned up to the max it rumbles and grumbles okay but the musical sound is nonexistant even though i bet an explosion would sound cool. Im debating returning this, buying a PSW505, and pocketing $400 unless im really missing something here with what this sub has to offer.

 

[gggooolllooo]

sorry for all these posts in a row but i also wanted to add that without anything playing the subwoofer sounds like a fridge...
thought i should add that

 

[jonnythan]

Your setup is highly compromised. By compromised I mean a complete disaster. And the fact is that you're used to highly colored and EQed sound. There's no magic bullet for you.

 

[gggooolllooo]

so im screwed is the jist of what your saying

return everything then is your feedback?

 

[gggooolllooo]

so maybe im a complete idiot but any advice would be appreciated. I did jump into this without much thought I guess

 

[Matt34]

Read and re-read what FirstReflection posted. Then read these articles:

Speaker Setup Guidelines — Reviews and News from Audioholics

You also need to invest in an SPL meter and try the different tuning options you're subwoofer is capable of.

In the end, your equipment is not the problem.

 

[gggooolllooo]

okay i'll do that as soon as i have time. How do you get all the speakers to play though? I think the gramma will help bass quite a bit. I dont have the funds to set up everything as i would like to so im working with it the best i can. What you guys see in the pictures above is a very rough draft in a room that is currently too cluttered and what not to do much

 

[FirstReflection]

Whoa...hold on there.

Okay, you definitely have some problems based on what you described with the HSU VTF-2 MK4 subwoofer. It should NOT be humming and "sounding like a fridge" when nothing is playing! It should be silent unless you have your ear litearlly pressed right up against the cabinet (in which case, you will hear a soft hum coming from the amp. But it should be totally silent as soon as you are any sort of distance away from the subwoofer).

It sounds as though you might simply have a loose connection - either at the subwoofer plug or at the Denon receiver's plug. Or you might have your subwoofer cable plugged into the wrong output of the Denon AVR-1712.

It sounds as though you haven't read the Denon manual and followed the basic setup guide. It also sounds as though you have not run Audyssey.

I totally understand that you want to just plug everything in and enjoy some music right away. So I'll put it this way:

Are you willing to be patient, go through the setup process step-by-step and follow the instructions?

If you are not willing to do that, and you just want everything to be quick and easy...that's ok! You're perfectly entitled to want what you want. You just have to realize that the products you bought are not plug-and-play, and they require some careful setup, some patience, and following the instructions in order to get them working properly and performing up to their potential.

In your room size, there is NO WAY you should have the volume knob on the VTF-2 MK4 turned up that high! There is a serious connection and/or setup problem based on the sort of disappointing sound that you described.

If you're willing to have a little patience and go through your setup step by step, here is what you should do:

1) Disconnect everything. Unplug everything from the Denon receiver. You need to start from scratch.

2) Go into the Denon receiver's menu and do a factory reset. You can read how to do this in the Denon manual if you're having trouble finding it in the menus just by browsing. You want to go right back to it being like a brand new unit so that you can be sure you are doing everything properly.

3) Now follow the connection guide in the Denon manual. Take your time and really make sure that all of your speakers, the subwoofer, and all of your sources are connected properly to the Denon receiver. Make sure all of the connections are secure. Make sure there are no stray strands of speaker wire that might accidentally create a short circuit. And make sure every wire and cable is going to the correct plug - speaker wires should be running (+) positive to (+) positive and (-) negative to (-) negative.

4) The HSU VTF-2 MK4 has a lot of options. Read through the manual and make sure you understand all of the options for the port plugs, the switches and various settings on the VTF-2 MK4's amp. In a room like yours, I would suggest using one port plug and using "EQ1" for "Ported Max Extension Mode". You should be getting a lot of room gain in such a small room, so use the lowest "0.3" Q setting. Set the phase to zero, the cross-over to "out" and the power to "on" (not auto). Finally, start with the volume knob turned up about 1/3 from its minimum. Even that is probably going to be too loud, but it's a good starting position and should allow Audyssey to work well in your room size.

5) With everything now carefully connected properly and the subwoofer's settings made to suit your room, set the master volume on the Denon to zero dB and plug in the Audyssey microphone. Go through a full Audyssey setup and follow my suggestions from the first reply that I made.

6) finally, once all of the setup is done, you'll want to make sure you are using the correct listening modes for whatever content you are watching or listening to. For stereo music, you might want to try the Dolby Pro Logic II Music mode so that you will have all 5 speakers and the subwoofer playing. Otherwise, you can just use "stereo", which will play 2-channel music using the Front L/R speakers and the subwoofer only (no sound will come out of the center or surround speakers). There are A LOT of listening modes available in the Denon 1712, so read the manual and go through the many options until you find the listening mode that you prefer for each source that you have connected to the Denon.

If all of this is too much of a hassle for you, that's ok! Not everyone wants to spend the better part of a full day carefully making sure that every connection is and setting is correct, running Audyssey (which takes a while), and going through the many, many options of a receiver like the Denon 1712 by trial and error, and reading manuals the whole way through. There's nothing wrong with wanting something faster and easier. These products might simply not be what you want in terms of ease of use and user friendliness. You might be happier with a decent Home-Theater-in-a-Box or all-in-one package that is designed to be easy to connect and work right out of the box.

The VTF-2 MK4 is capable of tremendous output that is accurate, deep and very powerful. There is clearly something very wrong with your current connections and/or setup. And I think it is more than just sitting in a room mode (although that is also a likely problem that you might not be able to fix since you don't really have anywhere else that you can put the subwoofer). But when you say it sounds like a fridge when nothing is playing, that's a clear indication that something is very wrong! You might simply have a ground loop from the power cord plugged into the wall. I actually think you have a bad connection between the subwoofer and the receiver though.

Try plugging the subwoofer into the wall with NO OTHER connections of any kind. Turn the subwoofer on. Does it still hum? If so, you have a ground loop, or possibly even just a defective amplifier. You shouldn't have a ground loop though since the VTF-2 MK4 uses a two-prong plug that doesn't even connect to the 3rd ground prong. So if you just plug the subwoofer into the wall - no other connections of any kind - and it is humming or making noise of some kind, you should call HSU and talk to them. If it is making noise without any other connection - just power - you might have a defective amplifier, which would explain a lot! And you'll certainly be entitled to a repair or replacement under warranty.

Honestly though, I think you just have a bad connection between the sub and receiver. But double check just to make sure. That sub should be silent when nothing is playing

Hope that helps!

 

[gggooolllooo]

First Reflection, you have been tremendously helpful. Thank you thank you thank you. I am currently unplugging things and cleaning my room and setting up speakers better. Making sure upon stripping the wire i am not taking off wiring and that the wiring is entirely where it needs to be.

My house is pretty old and i am scared of plugging the sub directly into the wall because i feel it could be faulty but i will to see if the sub works better plus the sub has its own surge protector. I dont see how the subs connection to the receiver could be bad as the single low frequency cord was definitely in all the way on both ends.

Again thank you though and i will let you know when i complete all of this

 

[FirstReflection]

You're most welcome

I understand your frustration! Who wouldn't be upset to spend so much money, have such high hopes and then be met with something so disappointing right away?

But I know the VTF-2 MK4 first hand (well, ok, the last one I heard in person was the VTF-2 MK3, but the only thing that changed were some additional options added to the amp ), and I know what it is capable of...and you ain't gettin' it with the way things were set up!

So I'm really happy to see that you're willing to be patient, take it step-by-step, and just put in the time so that your new gear can perform the way I know it's capable of performing! It's a hassle, which sucks. But I can promise you that spending one day now so that you can enjoy this system for years to come is very, very much worth it!

Subwoofer amps like the BASH amp in your HSU subwoofer have their own power protection built in (they have a fuse and will correct for minor variations in the wall outlet's power supply), so they're actually designed and meant to be plugged straight into the wall - no "power strip" or "power conditioner" of any kind in between. If you ever get a surge, the fuse will blow, and you'll have to replace that, but that's no biggie So yeah, just try plugging the subwoofer straight into the wall - absolutely nothing else - and see if you're getting any noise or hum. It should be dead silent unless, like I said, you literally press your ear right up against the cabinet (in which case you should hear a soft hum coming from the amp).

Once you've confirmed that everthing is ok that way, go ahead and make your connections, following the instructions in the Denon and HSU manuals. It's possible the subwoofer cable you were using has a defect. I've certainly run across that before, so it is by no means out of the realm of possibility!

Whatever the problem is though, by taking it step-by-step, you'll quickly figure out when the "fridge"-like sound starts to happen, and then you'll know where that problem is coming from and you can correct it!

But yeah, the Boston speakers are good. The Denon 1712 is a fantastic entry-to-mid-level receiver, and the HSU VTF-2 MK4 is a beast, so there's no way, just from the point of view of the quality of gear that you purchased, that you should be getting such crummy sound and be so disappointed.

Don't hesitate to call HSU's customer service on the phone for help as well. I've always found them very pleasant and helpful and they for sure want you to be happy with your subwoofer, and to get it working properly!

I'm happy to see that you ordered an Auralex GRAMMA riser. It would not have fixed the bass problems that you described. But it WILL help in other ways - especially in OTHER rooms of the house. Whenever the subwoofer plays, it also physically vibrates and shakes. With the subwoofer directly on the floor, it will easily start to shake the floor too, which will, in turn, shake the walls and ceiling! Now the sound is travelling through the physical structure of your house - not just through the air. And this structure-borne sound is the reason why it is so easy to hear bass thumping away in other rooms, even when the high frequencies are blocked. Bass travels really well through physical structures, so decoupling is VERY important, and really ought to be mandatory and just come with every subwoofer out there, IMO! Inside your listening room, you should have a bit less resonance, which can help to create a "tighter" sound to the bass as well. But yeah, the problems you were describing were something else. The GRAMMA would not have solved those issues!

Anywho, I really hope this all works the way it should! And again, don't be afraid at all to call HSU and get their help over the phone if things are still not sounding right. You're definitely taking the right approach though and I really commend you for that. This hobby can definitely be a hassle and frustrating sometimes. So just think of this as a "rite of passage" You're part of the audio enthusiast world for real now And in no time, you'll be the one sharing your experiences and helping someone else

Best of luck! I hope we'll get to read your impressions when it's all working properly. And don't hesitate to ask if you have any more questions!

 

[gggooolllooo]

Okay. so i have completely re-set up everything. The sub doesnt make that humming any more but when my master volume is at 0 db the two boston speakers kinda crackle or make that fuzzy noise. Also, im not sure if i just thought it was the sub before, but the A25 on the left is now making a fridge like noise. only when really loud though or at zero db.

And sadly so it seems my sub is still having volume issues. Its rumbling loud but doing nothing else at all in between.

Also, I was running my volume for my xbox through the receiver and running an extension cord for my picture. i found the picture was slightly worsened and i also found component slots on the back of the receiver. so my question is why wont any picture show up through this? I've read that component does not work on this receiver but i dont understand why it has component In then.

Dolby pro 2 is very nice though! PROGRESS!!

 

[gggooolllooo]

Yeah so more bass is still coming out of the front speakers than the bass. Still have to turn it up anywhere past the half way volume to feel anything and i can hear it much to subtle like

 

[gggooolllooo]

I bought this bass to piss my roommates off if i wanted with ease and to fill my small room with chest thumping bass. If i turn it up all the way i get the chest rock but thats it. I ran a bass test that ranged through all the hz on youtube and this bass really only came in on the lows but didnt even seem to try at the highs. I was impressed once it hit crazy lows like in the one movie ive watched so far but it really has absolutely no musical value to me at all unless turned up past half volume, not even really audible and definitely not real noticeable before that.

 

[gggooolllooo]

The bass sounds like your outside of a party and you can hear that muffled bass, if that helps diagnosis or anything. Like i said before i am used to logitech comp subs but i didnt think audiophile subs would sound literally like im outside a party bumping music instead of five feet away. I think its starting to sound better. i have it in max output mode and definitely feel it as long as its past half volume, more like two thirds, but when i go into the neighboring rooms its hardly evident i paid $600 for a sub.

 

[FirstReflection]

Ok, several things to check:

1) a fair amount of hum or hiss coming through the speakers when the master volume is set to zero dB is normal. But it shouldn't sound like a fridge. And after setting the individual speaker trim levels in the receiver's setup menu or via Audyssey, most of that hum or hiss should go away. If one speaker is producing a lot more noise than the other, then that indicates that you are picking up extra noise somewhere in the signal path. Likely in the speaker cable itself.

What thickness of speaker cable are you using?

Do you have the speaker cable running close to any other cables? Or near any electrical power cables perhaps?

2) What cross-over settings did you get from Audyssey? It sounds as though it might have set the crossover between the speakers and the subwoofer too low, which is very common with the auto-setup programs. That is why is suggested that you check the settings after Audyssey has run and then manually set the cross-over to 80Hz yourself. With smaller speakers like the A25, you might want to try 100Hz as the cross-over frequency so that a bit more of the bass is sent to the subwoofer and some of task of producing deep bass is alleviated from your A25 bookshelf speakers.

3) One other issue is that if you were used to a computer speaker setup, you were used to way higher frequencies coming out of the subwoofer in that system. Computer sparklers are tiny and can't play much of anything below about 200Hz. So the cross-over from speakers to subwoofer is set much higher in those systems.

In a high quality system, the goal is to simply have a very even and seamless blend between the speakers and subwoofer. Ideally, you won't even notice that there is a transition. It will just sound as though your front speakers effortlessly play right down to 20Hz. The subwoofer should not draw obvious attention to itself unless it's a big explosion or a really hard bass riff in music or something.

That said, the sound you are describing is not right at all. You should check your bass response using the THX Optimizer bass sweep found on any THX Certified DVD or Blu-ray, such as Star Wars or any Pixar Movie. The bass sweep is the last test in the Audio portion of the THX Optimizer, which is found in the DVD's main menu. It will play a sweep from 200Hz down to 20Hz. When everything is set up correctly, the sweep should start in the Front speakers, seamlessly transition into the subwoofer, and sound smooth and even - never getting any louder or softer - throughout the entire sweep. If there is an obvious "hole" between the subwoofer and speakers, you need to raise the cross-over frequency in the Denon's menu. If there is a big, bloated sound in the middle of r sweep, then you need to lower the cross-over frequency.

4) I take it you have one of the older Xbox360 models that does not have an HDMI output? That's ok. You should run an optical digital audio cable from the Xbox to the Denon so that you can enjoy Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound. You can also run the component video cable from the Xbox either directly into the TV, or from the Xbox to the Denon. If you run the component video from the Xbox to the Denon, the Denon will convert the component video into HDMI. The 1712 has no component video output. But it will convert component video to HDMI so that you only need a single HDMI cable running from the Denon to the TV. That way, the Denon can handle all of the switching between your various sources and you can leave your TV to just one HDMI input and never have to change the input on the TV

Most all of this is covered in the user manuals. So once again, just take your time and read the manuals. I still can't tell if you've run Audyssey or what settings you are using for the speakers and subwoofer. It sounds like you might be rushing and not reading the manuals. Don't rush. Take your time. Do things one step at a time. It takes longer if you rush and skip steps or don't fully understand all of the settings. So take your time, follow the manual, and follow all of the steps I've outlined here. Rushing will only make this take longer

 

[FirstReflection]

Forgot to mention,

Double check the settings on the back of the HSU subwoofer. Make sure the cross-over switch is set to "out" not "in". And turn the cross-over knob up as high as it will go, just to be safe