Agonizing & need help! SVS, HSU, Rythmik, ED?

BrazenC5

BrazenC5

Enthusiast
Hi guys, I apologize in advance for this long post (I wanted to provide as much context and background as possible), and I appreciate any and all feedback.

I gave away an older 5.1 setup because I didn’t want my 2 yo knocking down satellite stands, but started to miss the home theatre experience. I recently purchased a Yamaha YSP 4100 (works for my current situation) and pulled out a Polk PSW505 (I know...more hiss/boo!!) to accompany the sound projector, but now looking to upgrade the sub.

I'm in a very odd configuration where the living room and dining room are open to each other, and have two options to set up the HT (neither are acoustically preferable I'm certain).

I'm also planning to go to dual subs (unless you all think its overkill given the room volume and layout. This will be set up for 98% home theatre, 2% music. I’m really looking to fill the air with even, LFE tactile experience. Eventually I’ll go to 5.2, and want subs that I’ll utilize for the next 7+ years.

WAF is not in the equation, because I've opted for the strategy of "asking for forgiveness later, rather than asking for permission first." :D

After HOURS of reading subwoofer posts and reviews on this and the avs forum, i've narrowed down to the following based on the attributes of each and my budget. My pros/cons are just additional thoughts.

1. 2 SVS PB12-NSDs ($1,194) - I found one used (in like new condition) for $475, and I can buy the other for $719 shipped.
  • PROs – Priced well given the other subs in comparison. Cons – one will be used, and anything can happen if out of warranty. I may be shelling out more in the next couple years if the electronics go out.
2. 2 HSU VTF2-MK4s ($1,183) – both new with tax only (since they are local, I’m hoping I can pick up without paying for shipping).
  • PROs – Being about an hour away...if something goes wrong, I can easily transport them to HSU.
3. 2 Rythmik FV12s ($1,134) – both new with shipping only.
  • PROs – I like the servo technology, and they look cool too. :)
4. 2 Elemental Designs A2 300s ($830) – shipped
  • PROs – least expensive option, and may give what I need with my space limitations and listening needs.
I also looked at the Outlaw LFM 1 Plus, but given parity in pricing to the HSU, I thought I would go local. I plan to go and listen to the used SVS tomorrow, but haven’t heard the others...may potentially stop by HSU if I get a chance, but other than that after all the research I think I would be happy with any of the options above, and that’s the problem with too many options, even though I’m sure I won’t make a bad decision, I’m agonizing over it!!

Is it overkill for 2 subs, and what would you do if you were in my shoes?? (btw-thanks for bearing with me if you made it this far).

My room(s) layout below with both options. Open area is 3,140 cFt, seating area 1 is 1,800 cFt, seating area 2 is 1,040 cFt:
 
timoteo

timoteo

Audioholic General
First of all, welcome!!

To be honest, the topic of these exact brands being compared & discussed has happened sooo many times i think youll get most if not all your questions answered if you use the search tool up on the top of the page. There may be some factors that need addressed that are specific to your situation but try the search. Youll come across a lot of information honest!!

Definately stop by HSU & have a go in their demo room. Thats what i did & Pete is a very nice & knowlegable guy. Id be looking into the VTF-15h along with the others specially with a large area.

Where abouts do you live? Im in Whittier & if your interested in listening to my VtF-15H & MBM-12 combo id be more than happy to give you a demo in a real world open floorplan livingroom setting. If your interested just shoot me a PM.

All those subs your considering a great in their own rite!!
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
From the choices you listed I would probably go with the PB12 subs. Having Hsu local is a nice advantage, but those subs are pretty reliable so you are unlikely to take them in to get serviced for a good long while. The PB12 will be the most powerful of that bunch though, but the VTF2 and FV12 are not that far behind. I don't know how the A2-300 stacks up against the others. You might give Hsu a visit anyway, just to see their stuff, however they do want you to call a day in advance for demos so they can more easily set aside some time for you.

By the way, two of these subs will not be overkill for your room. Also if you do decide to go with Hsu, you might inquire about a small discount for buying multiples, it doesn't hurt to ask anyway.
 
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NDyse10

Junior Audioholic
I don't have a ton of advice on the issue other than I just went through a similar situation on which subwoofer to choose. I ended up going with the PB12 NSD from SVS. When I get it in a week or so I can update on how I like it. Also, ask FirstReflection your question. He sheds a lot of light on issues such as these.
 
BrazenC5

BrazenC5

Enthusiast
Hi Timoteo - I have scoured both audioholics and avsforums for hours as mentioned earlier to narrow down to the 4 options, and I'm sure a lot of people can relate to "paralysis by analysis," this post is one last shot of insight before I pull the trigger this week.

As as I hoped, you brought up something I haven't considered. Would you (given my room layout) go for one VTF-15H ($947 price point w/Tax w/o shipping assuming local pickup), or two of any of the previous options? I can't justify buying two.

I live in Torrance, work in Culver City...I might take you up on the offer!! Anaheim is just as far for me, and I'll definitely call HSU tomorrow for a demo of the VTF-15H, and hopefully dual VTF2-MK4s.

ShadyJ - I read nothing but good things about the SVS, but don't have experience with used equipment, so thanks for the input (along with the two sub question)! I was ready to purchase tomorrow as long as the SVS sounded good (I can be impulsive), but you and Timoteo convinced me to make the time to demo the HSUs since they are about an hour away. I guess I can wait an extra day and drive a couple hours for piece of mind. :)

NDyse10 - Your thread was one I read through that got me narrowed down, and was also impressed with FirstReflection's reply (I thanked his reply)...but wasn't sure if the order of recommendations would be the same since I'm mostly HT (opposite of you), and have a really funky layout. I'm excited for you to get your hands on that PB12 NSD!:)
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Hi there! Welcome to the forum. I hope we'll be able to help you make a decision here :)

First up, you've got a "large" room with a bit over 3000 cubic feet. However, I also see that you have a hallway there as well. It's important to note that the entire open space - everywhere that the air can freely move - is what a subwoofer is going to try and pressurize. So especially when you are saying that you want that tactile, "hit you in the chest" type of bass for movies. That's going to be an important thing to consider and should partially inform your decision.

I want to talk a little bit about your layout options. Are those absolutely the only two options that are available to you? If so, it isn't "ideal", but the option of using the smaller 10 foot x 13 foot portion (the one you've marked as 1040 cubic feet) would make more sense for the simple reason that it would allow you to properly center a nice sized display for the sectional seating and allow you to place your Front Left and Right speakers on either side of the display. If you use the layout in the larger 1800 cubic foot space, with the layout you've shown, your Left Front speaker would basically be in front of your hallway and your Right Front speaker would be jammed into a corner - so that layout isn't what I would pick anyway :)

I don't know all your limitations in the layout of your furniture, but I'd like to offer one other potential way to arrange things:

if you look at that "top" wall that you've marked as 15 feet across. You could have your sectional facing that top wall. One side of your sectional would run up the "12 feet" wall. The back of the sectional would be along the "7 feet" portion and it would stick out a foot or so past that "7 feet" portion with what I assume is the chaise lounge portion of the sectional, but I don't think that would be too much of a problem. Now your display and front speakers would be on that "15 feet" wall, but you'd be offset to the right side of that room. I don't know if there are windows or something that would prevent this arrangement though. The reason I thought of this layout is because it would allow you to pull your sectional a short distance away from the walls on all sides. You could pull the side section of the sectional some 1-2 feet away from the "12 feet" wall. And pull the back of the sectional some 2-3 feet away from the "7 feet" portion to give you a 9-10 foot viewing distance. The left hand side of the sectional would jut out into the open space by a couple of feet, but you'd still have a very large opening to that "bottom" 1040 cubic foot room and you'd have a portion of the larger "upper" room on the left hand side where you could put additional seating, or bookcases or even an office desk or something. To me, it's just the better acoustical setup (getting the seating a bit away from the walls) and actually gives you a bit more space to work with - almost like having three areas in this open concept space, rather than just two.

Anywho, that out of the way, let's talk subwoofers! :D

Honestly, at this point, with the budget that you have, I would recommend that you go for one, very high output sub, rather than two, lower output subs. And the reason I'm saying that is because you said that you want that tactile bass - and that takes some good headroom for strong, uncompressed transients. I actually suspect that you have a fair bit more than 3140 cubic feet because of that hallway that likely opens up to even more space down the hall!

Now here's the thing - a pair of SVSound PB12-NSD subs, which are the most capable both in terms of output and extension out of the list that you gave - to me, that's going to be right on the edge of having the sort of output that I would personally want and feel comfortable recommending in this sort of space. So if you're sticking with really wanting two subs and sticking with that candidate list, then easy - go with the two SVSound PB12-NSD subs! The pair of FV12 Rythmiks (as much as I recommend that sub in the $500 price range) won't have as much output. The two Outlaw VTF-2 MK4 won't have the same depth of extension or the output. The pair of eD A2-300 don't have quite the same level of tight control and finesse as the others. So to me, out of that list, it's a pretty easy pick with the SVSound subs.

However, you should double check if that used PB12-NSD you're looking at is the same PB12-NSD as the current model that uses SVSound's new "Sledge" amp, or if it's the "old" PB12-NSD. They're not the same sub. Similar - sure. But the new "Sledge" amp'd version is a different sized box, new driver and new amp. And it honestly is better than the old one - tighter transient response. No more slight hint of overhang that the old one had!

So yeah, just double check that the used PB12-NSD is the current "Sledge" model, cause if not, you wouldn't actually be getting a pair of the same subs.

But if I'm being REALLY honest - with this sort of open space, and for what you described as wanting in your bass experience - I'd feel most comfortable stepping up to a pair of higher output subs. Now, your budget won't really allow for that right now. But you could certainly get one and then add another in the future at some point. To me, it's that word "tactile" that you used. It's trickier than it seems because where that sensation comes from isn't the super deep 20Hz stuff. The super deep stuff gives you the "tingling" sensation, which is also cool. But the "hit you in the chest" stuff is about an octave higher, in the 40Hz range. And what makes it tactile are the transients, which can call for MASSIVE peaks in power and output. It's for a super short burst. It's a super short amount of time. But if you don't have the headroom in the sub for those super short bursts, you miss out on the tactile sensation, so that's where I'm coming at this from.

Adding a second sub doesn't boost your output as much as one might think - unless you co-locate your subs, ie. stack them one on top of the other or put them directly side-by-side. But if you're using two subs in two different locations, you only get about a 3dB increase in output. The bigger reason to do it is to get more even bass response throughout your room, which you say you also want, which is why the ideal would be a pair of higher output subs ;)

But for now, I'd favor using your available funds for one, very high output sub. The VTF-15H is certainly a contender. So too would be the Rythmik FV15HP or the SVSound PB12-Plus or PC12-Plus cylinder version.

In terms of price - and especially if you can pick up the sub from HSU directly and avoid the shipping cost, there's no question that the VTF-15H is your least expensive out of those options. And in terms of tactile output, that baby's got it in spades! I have to be completely honest and say that in MY listening - where I heard the VTF-15H in a professional dubbing stage - the VTF-15H wasn't my absolute favorite out of all the subs that HSU has ever made. I actually wish that they had maybe up'd the price a little bit, used an even higher powered amp and really tuned that box a little lower so that it would be a bit more linear overall and really dig down to 20Hz at the same high output levels as the rest of the frequency response. But I also have to say, I'm picky as hell, play things back at reference levels, and in my own home, almost always wind up EQ'ing down the response of subs below 30Hz because the room gain is enough to boost the super low frequencies!

So I've gotta say - for your particular situation - with the room that you've got, with the budget that you have, and for the kind of experience that you're describing that you want to achieve, the VTF-15H does manage to fit all of those criteria the best, IMO. If you don't have to pay the shipping, you won't have to save up for too long before you can afford a second one! And I can DEFINITELY say that a pair of VTF-15H in that room will absolutely deliver the experience that you're looking for. You most certainly won't be hurting for output or tactile bass :D

Hope that helps! And please let us know how things go! I think your visit to HSU will be really helpful to you and I don't think you'll be worrying about this recommendation very much after that ;)
 
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billy p

billy p

Audioholic Ninja
I swear sometimes I login and I think I'm visiting the Hsu forum....:rolleyes:.

Of those on your list the Svs all day long.
 
timoteo

timoteo

Audioholic General
Oh Billy your silly!.....Cant believe i just put that :)

But from reviews, measurements & my own experience of the 15H hes right. Thats what the 15H is known for is its tactile mid-bass slam. It digs deep believe me, not as deep as some of the others but for movies thats gives you that sensation that some of us crave. I have mine in a an open floor plan is is approx 7,000cuft & ive tried both max extention & max output. In max extension yes i get more deep bass but that tactile feel is what i love so max output gives me that extra umph & piece of mind because in mas output this thing can seriously take a hit without blinking. Im considering adding a second to replace the MBM-12 possibly.

At least the OP will be able to demo the VTF3/4 & VTF-15h side by side. He can even come listen to mine if he likes. SVS subs are incredible dont get me wrong, but you get more things like fancy drivers & beautiful finishes which cost more. For raw performance at a killer price HSU imo still takes the cake.
 
timoteo

timoteo

Audioholic General
I think people need to realize that there are different companies out there like SVS & HSU for a reason. SVS has really stepped up their game with the incredible driver quality & outstanding enclosure finish options. But these come at a cost to the consumer. For those of us that have more of a limited budget but still want the top notch performance, that where HSU steps in & gives us pure performance at a great price. Do their subs look like a piece of art, well beauty is in the eye ofthe beholder.

I like the looks of mine. But of course id prefer the look to be more like SVS. But i didnt have the $ for that perk. So when someone comes around here with a budget that fits HSU then of course we are going to recommend them. Come on, the VTF-15h is KNOWN for being a bang for buck sub in more than one place. No its not the "Ultra Killer" some were hoping for but at half the price it gets pretty dang close. Specially when you double up on them!!
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Situations like this are the reason I've gone to the trouble and expense of listening to a bunch of subwoofers myself. I think people want to know the comparisons. I think they want to know about the SMALL differences. I think they want to read about it from someone who had actually heard the subs play and isn't just repeating reviews or "the party line" at a forum. And the fact is that every situation is unique. There's no "one size fits all" advice.

I get both thanks and criticism for the things I write here and elsewhere. Some people don't like that I base my recommendations on what I've heard rather than on measurements. Some people hate it when I say that a popular sub isn't "my favorite". And yet I will absolutely recommend a sub that might not be my personal favorite if I think it is the best fit for what someone else is looking for!

The VTF-15H isn't my personal fave. If the OP had the budget, I actually think the Rythmik FV15HP would be the best choice here. But he DOES have a budget, and I don't ignore that type of thing because it's important! I try to take a "real world" approach. I'd love to just recommend that everyone buy four JL Audio Gotham 213 subs and build an ideal acoustic space to put them in, but c'mon, right?

In this case, I think the VTF-15H really fits the bill. So I'll recommend it, even though it isn't my personal favorite sub ever in the galaxy. Still a great sub! That I have small criticisms of it doesn't take away from what it can do or it's very high value!

I also recommended the dual PB12-NSD choice. The OP plans to visit both SVS and HSU. He'll be able to see first hand what I've talked about here and be able to make up his own mind, which of course is best! But at least it's narrowed down now. He says he's been agonizing. I think the advice given here should ease that and make it a simpler decision. Isn't that the point?
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
3000cuft isn't huge. In fact I'd double check those figures because the master bedroom/bath in my little house is almost 3000cuft.

Of those you listed I'd scratch the eD off the list. I've heard it and while good bang for the buck it's not in the same league as the others. I've been to Hsu and every audio nut should experience their demo room but the VTF-2 would not be my first choice for a video centric system. It's really good for music but I stubbornly insist on a bit lower tuning for action movies. A VTF-2 can be tuned lower but I keep reading reports about port chuffing from that sub when tuned lower. On the other hand a properly placed single VTF-3 (maybe behind the sofa?) should rattle your teeth in 3000cuft, but it's huge. Where are you looking at as possible sub locations?
 
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BrazenC5

BrazenC5

Enthusiast
FirstReflection

FirstReflection - 1 word....WOW. First thanks for your thoughtful post and feedback. If you’re ever find yourself in the LA/Westside area, let me know.

You're concern is correct, the used PB12-NSD is the previous model with the BASH amp. If this is the only set up that I'm mix/matching new/used...might be a slight concern. I had a similar concern this morning when I realized the difference myself, before I had a chance to read your post.

Funny you suggested my current room layout. :) In the pics below, you'll notice the challenge of the fireplace, and I didn't proportionally scale the sectional (much larger than I pictured). The pic below has my current sectional (2 piece), and the new one will be larger (3 piece). I can't see how i'll fit two subs in the current layout, with a larger sectional.


Because of the challenges above I thought I would go with the smaller 1040 cFt space, simliarly thinking that I needed a longer A/V wall...although not sure if I would place the subs there or behind the sectional, hopefully this works out.


Regarding the subs:

  • Will check out HSU first this week, and listen to the dual VTF2-MK4s, a single VTF-15H, and dual VTF-15H, and see if I can get a further price break on any dual package...based on this visit I should know if I feel the desire to step up to a 15" single or dual setup
If not:
  • I'll call SVS to find out their thoughts on mixing a previous model with new model PB12-NSD
  • Call the seller to listen to the used PB12-NSD, just to compare with the VTF2-MK4
If so:
  • See if HSU will provide an additional discount for a dual VTF-15H package
  • Call Rythmik to see if there is any additional price break for their already discounted dual sub FV15s
Current Pricing using their online carts:


Dual 12”s will be about $1,100 to $1,200, with a pair of 15”s in the $1,900 - $2,400 range between the HSU VTF-15H and Rythmik FV15HP ($500 difference)...but the gap narrows to $200 with the FV15s.

The pair of PC12-NSD Pluses would be an interesting option, but currently $700 more than the VTF-15Hs and $500 more than the FV15HPs.

Sholling - thanks for your input...while at HSU I'll check out the VTF-3...I'm sure I'll be enlightened by the demo. Just double checked the room measurements, and it looks correct. I'm in a 1,700 sqft tri-level...staircase in the middle and large laundryroom takes up a bit of square footage.

If the 15s are the route I choose, then I can wait till after we put in new flooring this month, and like suggested buy one, and wait for any future sale for another. I’ll let you guys know the progress after I come back from HSU Research.
 
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timoteo

timoteo

Audioholic General
If you get duals of any of these you have to remember that you wont be pushing them near their max output, specially in your size place. So for instance if you went with the Rythmiks i think youd be wasting your money by going with the FV15HPs. Instead youd be better off with dual FV15s because you wont even be pushing them very hard to get past reference.
If you go HSU & go duals, i am not inclined to say get dual VTf-3/4s instead of dual 15Hs. I say that because of the size of your place. You will be able to get pretty insane output when running either of those subs in a dual setup.
Yes having the headroom & low distortion levels is the ultimate goal so your not going to hurt performance by getting the larger models. I just wonder if youd be benefiting much from the larger subs.
Well im glad your going to have an actual listen to the HSUs & SVS subs thats the best thing for you to do. Try & have a listen with HSUs MBM-12 thrown in the mix. Its really a great addition to any of the true subs. Its a little harder for the 15" subs to have the tight punch that a good 12" can have. Sorry im not trying to make your final decision any harder than it already seems to be for ya. But knowing ALL your options is good!!
All the subs your considering are great performers so your going to end up with great bass. Keep us informed of your thoughts on the demos & any choice you make!!
 
BrazenC5

BrazenC5

Enthusiast
Thanks Timoteo. Yeah, if I go the 15s, will be between the FV15s or VTF-15H...I already potentially doubled the budget during this thread. :)

Looking forward to getting some listening in this week. I can't believe it's so late, what are you still doing up?! I need to hit the sack.

I really appreciate all you guy's feedback. :)
 
timoteo

timoteo

Audioholic General
Thats funny you ask about what im doing up!

I normally have my VTF-15h up in the front right corner of my theater & the MBM-12 is normally behind my couch in the right rear corner. They have been there since i got them. I have put a lot of effort to measure & EQ the system to get a flat response.
Well i got a hair up my butt to move the 15h to the right rear corner & move the MBM to the left rear. So ive had been up measuring those locations & i even swapped the 2 subs, putting each in the opposing corner.
Needeless to say, the 15h is not a small sub & moving it around then lifting it onto the isolation platform takes some time & energy :)
Well the measurements show that while i go a big boost in the mid-bass slam, i got a large suckout with the <30hz frequency tones. I tried all operationsl modes (sealed/ported, max.ex/max.out) but to no avail.
Ended up putting the subs back into their original locations haha! The original spot gives me a nice boost in the low bass which gets my flat down to 16hz. Very nice!!!
I like to experiment with placement options so i KNOW FOR SURE that i have my subs in the best spot. Problem is, i normally have to wait until the wife goes to bed, then im up late & super tired in the morning like i am right now haha....arg!! :)
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
I like the layout of the smaller room better myself but both are challenging. To save on floor space I'd give serious thought to one of SVS' cylinder subs. Call them and see what they suggest. I strongly considered one for my 3000cuft (high ceiling) bedroom and would discuss the idea of a single PC12-PLus with SVS.

BTW looking at the playground toys made me think of one more possible issue - little hands. Two things you may want to think about is the possibility of someone sticking a pencil through a front firing driver so that they can see what's inside. Also keep on mind that front or rear firing ports make wonderful places to hide things like dad's keys or unfinished PB&J sandwiches. :p
 
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lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Get the local used sub and add the other one later. One sub often fills the bill. ;)
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
Get the local used sub and add the other one later. One sub often fills the bill. ;)
I agree with this premise. Those rooms don't really have the floor space for two subs or even a single great big 15" sub.
 
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