Advise on stereo system

[Ernst]

Hi,

I'm looking into buying a hifi stereo component system, and haven't got much of an idea what to buy.
The components I want to buy:
A cd player
An integrated amplifier or receiver
Speakers

My current main listening source is my computer hooked up to samson mediaone 4a monitor speakers playing flac files ripped from cds. I'm now looking for a good system for the living room. Something that can also be very clear in sound but into the room instead of close up.

I don't listen to radio, but my wife does, so a receiver would probably be better than an amplifier. On the other hand, isn't (in general) an amplifier better than a receiver at the same price point as far as amplification goes?

As for cd players, I thought first of buying a dvd player, but after looking around on the web got to the conclusion it was better not to, because of quality, but also since menu functions tend to need the screen (which we don't have nor plan on getting).

For speakers, I plan on hanging them on the wall for which I guess bookshelf speakers seem the most suitable, to protect them from kids and pets. Another thing I notice, most amplifiers tend to state power information for speaker impedance of 8 or 4 Ohm, but most bookshelf speakers seem to have a 6 Ohm impedance, what should I look for and how should I set things up if there is such a mismatch?

Since I'm getting at least part of the system as a present, I don't know what my budget is, but it's safe to keep the lower price range. Should I, as I saw advised on the B&W site, spent one third on cd player, one third on amplifier, and one third on speakers?

At the lowest price range (for cd player and amplifier), I see Sherwood components, are they any good and reliable?

The lowest priced cd players I see are:
sherwood cd5090

yamaha cdx397mk2

teac c-1d

onkyo dx7355

denon dcd500

How do these match up? Are there others I should look for?

The same for receivers/amplifiers:
sherwood rx4109

sherwood rx5700

onkyo a4211

denon pma495

yamaha rx-e410

onkyo tx8222

yamaha rx-e810

yamaha rx397

onkyo tx8255

onkyo tx8522


Which speakers should I get with them?

Thanks,

Ernst

 

[m_vanmeter]

a few questions...

Budget for speakers ?

What type of speakers do you prefer ? small/large; bookshelf or tower, speakers on stands or furniture ? Finish - wood veneer or black ? Will you use a powered subwoofer, or just a stereo pair of speakers ?

 

[markw]

I've been responsible for putting about half a dozen or so Sherwood 4105 receivers in friends systems over the last few years and there ar eno regrets anywhere.

What esoteric functions do you "need" on a CD player that don't exist in DVD players? I use DVD players for CD players all over the place and they work and sound fine. ...and hey are cheaper as well.

As for speakers, listen to anything and everything you can. As a general rule of thumb, the smaller the speaker, the smaller the sound. If you're going for wall mounted speakers, avoid rear ported speakers.

 

[sholling]

I think the usual rule of thumb is 2/3 on speakers and 1/4-1/3 on the receiver. Pick your speakers first. Speakers are highly subjective so figure out what sounds best to your ears. And because speakers tend to sound different once you get them home make sure whoever you buy from has a good return policy. Only after you make your speaker selection will you know what they need from the receiver/amplifier. Also keep in mind that if you're going for bookshelf speakers then you'll need to budget for a subwoofer.

As far and CD players go I don't use one. I play my flac collection though a dedicated media player ($75-150). Yes it requires a display but you can get away with a small computer LCD monitor if you like as long as it supports HDMI. The convenience of being able to queue up music from a central computer or server is just head and shoulders better then having looking for a CD the kids decided to use as a coaster or dig peanut butter out of the CD drawer and the sound is just as good.

 

[Ernst]

@m_vanmeter: budget I don't know yet. Let's assume the lower end (the misnomed budget hifi).
As to type, I want to hang on the wall, so my guess is bookshelf. Size is not so important, but I don't see myself hanging towers on the wall. I don't think finish matters a lot. I won't use a sub, just the two speakers.

@markw: I've had quite a few of issues with cds not playing in some cd and dvd players. I've seen quite a few comments about dvd players in general having more problems with cds than cd players. If I use the player for playing cds, doesn't it make sense to spend my money only on that circuitry dedicated to doing just that, and not on circuitry for playing and decoding dvds? I don't know of any esoteric functions I need.

@sholling: Even two-thirds, so why does a speaker manufacturer like B&W say just one third? Do I really need the sub with bookshelves? I just compare with my computer speakers, which have a four inch "woofer" and the bass is okay nonetheless (I did do some equalizing though). I like to just put a cd in, go over my collection and choose one. Scrolling through a list of folders, though easier, just feels different. But I also do sometimes put my computer on random through all my discs which is the advantage of the media player. So far I've kept my cds in good condition. When getting new ones it's nice to just play it instead of first going to the computer.

 

[markw]

You do realize that DVD players can be had cheaper than dedicated CD players, don't you? ...and I've not had problems with them playing CD's.

But, hey, whatever you're more comfortable with.

 

[Seth=L]

Tell me how you feel about this?

Teac AG-H500 stereo receiver (40 watts RMS x 2 @ 8 Ohms) and matching PD-H570 7 disc changer. Depending on your speaker choice and room size, this setup could be a viable option. Because of their compact size and good looks combined with excellent quality they've garnered some attention from a small handful of people. Each component is a mere 11 1/2" wide.

 

[yepimonfire]

me either, ive always used a dvd player for CD's many of them function like them as well without a TV, most have very good DAC's in them. CD players just seem overpriced, and with a DVD player, you can also play MP3's that is if lossy compression doesent bother you.

 

[sholling]

@m_vanmeter: budget I don't know yet. Let's assume the lower end (the misnomed budget hifi).
As to type, I want to hang on the wall, so my guess is bookshelf. Size is not so important, but I don't see myself hanging towers on the wall. I don't think finish matters a lot. I won't use a sub, just the two speakers.

@sholling: Even two-thirds, so why does a speaker manufacturer like B&W say just one third?

You'll have to ask B&W. But if you keep asking here and at other sites and those members that have been around a while will tell you the same thing that I told you. Not everyone can do it but that's the usual recommended ratio.

Do I really need the sub with bookshelves?

Only if you want deep base. The human ear can hear 20-20khz. If your speaker play flat down to 40hz you'll have most music covered. The exception is some of the techno stuff and some organ music actually drops down to frequencies you can't hear just feel. So the answer is it depends on what you listen to.

You'll also need to figure out how you're going to mount the speakers because the only ones that I know of that go that low have ports and usually on the back side. That means you need to leave clearance behind it and clearance to each side. I haven't heard Ascend's Sierra-1 ($700-900/pr) but handling bass down to 40hz is supposed to be their thing so it might be worth gathering more information. There is a review on the main Audioholics site. Or for about twice that price you can probably get something made for you by Salk Sound.

I just compare with my computer speakers, which have a four inch "woofer" and the bass is okay nonetheless (I did do some equalizing though).

When you remove a lifelong blindfold you soon discover color. In all seriousness the thing to do is get out and listen for yourself.

 

[BMXTRIX]

You could definitely go with a mini-shelf system...

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_033DM38SBK/Denon-D-M38.html?tp=209

I think if I were serious, I might go to something like Emotiva...
http://emotiva.com/usp1.shtm
http://emotiva.com/erc1.shtm
http://emotiva.com/upa2.shtm

Then some nice speakers.

The speakers 'wall mounted' seems to be a bit of an issue in my mind as most speakers tend to do a bit better when they have some separation from the wall either on stands or freestanding - maybe on an open back shelf.

Budget is king though. If you have $500 to spend, then that's different than $2,000 - by a long long way. The Emotiva with nice speakers will be $2,000. The mini-shelf system will be under $500 for sure. Then there is a ton of stuff between the two.

I won't say that CD players sound better than DVD players for audio, but I will say that I've never heard complaints from people who have used their DVD players to playback CDs. The cost savings may be important to you.

 

[3db]

You do realize that DVD players can be had cheaper than dedicated CD players, don't you? ...and I've not had problems with them playing CD's.

But, hey, whatever you're more comfortable with.

Aside from the quality statement, the OP also stated that he wasn't going to hook up a display to his 2 channel system and that DVD players usuall require a display to have them set-up.

 

[Seth=L]

BTW, in case it wasn't clear, I am potentially selling some Teac components. I'll make a thread.

 

[KEW]

Among standard stereo components, speakers have the biggest influence on the sound you will hear.
The differences in sound quality between a decent budget receiver/amp and a higher dollar amp are subtle even with very good speakers.
Thus, it makes sense to use your budget to get the best speakers you can.

If you are pretty happy with the bass from your 4" computer speakers, I think it is safe to say you will be delighted with the bass from a good set of bookshelf speakers. So I wouldn't worry too much about the sub - this time around - save some of the "goody" for later!

 

[Ernst]

I think I'm decided on the receiver, Yamaha rx397. Mostly due to reviews in combination with budgetary constraints.

Now, what speakers go well with them, bookshelves which will be hanging on the wall?

Some options (budget wise):
Wharfedale Diamond 8.0,8.1,8.2,9.0,9.1,9.2,9.3,10.0,10.1,10.2
Mordaunt Short 902
Tannoy Fusion 1 or 2
Jamo c401,c403,e610,e530
Polk monitor 30,tsi100
kef q1,iq10,iq3
elac bs52
quad l-ite
psb image b15
klipsch b2
cerwin vega cls6
dali concept 1
monitor audio br1

Are there others I should look out for? Some that with a discount might fall into my budget?

 

[m_vanmeter]

serious budget limits = Jamo
tight budget = Polk Monitors
everything else depends on available sales and how "elastic" your budget is. Try to audition some of the units listed....there are differences in each.

 

[Pyrrho]

I think I'm decided on the receiver, Yamaha rx397. Mostly due to reviews in combination with budgetary constraints.

Now, what speakers go well with them, bookshelves which will be hanging on the wall?

Some options (budget wise):
Wharfedale Diamond 8.0,8.1,8.2,9.0,9.1,9.2,9.3,10.0,10.1,10.2
Mordaunt Short 902
Tannoy Fusion 1 or 2
Jamo c401,c403,e610,e530
Polk monitor 30,tsi100
kef q1,iq10,iq3
elac bs52
quad l-ite
psb image b15
klipsch b2
cerwin vega cls6
dali concept 1
monitor audio br1

Are there others I should look out for? Some that with a discount might fall into my budget?

While you are looking at different brands, make sure you also look at different types of speakers. You already have at least one horn and some domes, but you might want to try to find some ribbons as well (though they usually cannot be had on a tight budget). If your budget can stretch to $600 for speakers, you might want to try to audition some Magnepan speakers. Unfortunately, their $600 model is only available factory direct, so the only way to audition them is to either know someone who has them, visit the factory (if you live near them, I understand you can do that and hear them in their reception room), or buy them (they have a money back guarantee). If you decide to try them, read some online reviews of them first to see if the description of them is the sort of thing that interests you, and then decide whether or not to buy. If there is a Magnepan dealer in your area, you can listen to one model up from that. Anyway, here is the link to the $600 deal:

http://www.magnepan.com/model_MMG

If it were me, and if I had the space for them, and an amplifier adequate to drive them (they are an honest 4 ohm speaker, without nasty low impedance dips, but they are 4 ohms and not terribly efficient; a good receiver can drive them adequately [my brother uses a receiver to drive his]), and if my budget allowed for speakers at $600 or less, there is nothing else I would even consider. But different people have different taste in speakers, so not everyone would agree in their choice. This is why it is so important to audition speakers, as there is no such thing as a perfect speaker (especially on a budget, but even at any price, there are no perfect speakers), so it is a question of which combination of virtues and vices you prefer.

One more thing: Buy your speakers BEFORE you buy your receiver/amplifier. The reason is, how much power is needed depends on the speakers you get.

 

[Ernst]

Btw, what about the Cambridge audio S30?

Also, am now thinking more towards the rx497 instead of the rx397, for future expansion. Source probably onkyo dc7355.

I have also made a list of some tracks (well, quite too many), which I think might suit me for auditioning speakers. Any opinions, which tracks should I definitely take among them?

Here is the list (sorted by genre):

Doom metal:
Anathema - The Beloved
Celestial Season - Decamerone
Dolorian - Raja Naga Rising
Esoteric - Quickening
Evoken - Embrace The Emptiness
Mournful Congregation - A Slow March To The Burial
My Dying Bride - Symphonaire Infernus Et Spera Empyrium
Paradise Lost - As I Die
Skepticism - The March And The Stream (the Ethere version)
The 3rd And The Mortal - Vandring
The Knell - Winter Shade

Orchestral:
Vivaldi (Rolf Lislevand) - Concerto en ré majeur pour 2 violons, luth & bc RV93 - III. Allegro
Bizet (Royal Philharmonic Orchestra / Mark Emler) - Habanera (Carmen Suites)
Dowland (Potter/Stubbs/Surman/Homburger/Guy)- Flow My Tears (the first version on In Darkness Let Me Dwell)
Saint Saëns (CSR Symphony Orchestra / Keith Clark)- Danse Macabre
Verdi (Filipova,Scalchi,Hernandez,Colombara,Hungarian State Opera Choir/Katona,Hungarian State Opera Orchestra/Morandi)- Dies Irae

Black Metal:
Emperor - Ye Entranceperium
Hyadningar - Templars Of The Black Sun
Old Man's Child - Unholy Vivid Innocence
Rotting Christ - Χάος Γένετο (The Sign of Prime Creation)
The Ruins Of Beverast - Summer Decapitation Ritual

Death Metal:
Carcass - Doctrinal Expletives
Gorefest - Revolt
Nembrionic - Kill Them

Solo instrument:
Bach (Robert Hill)- Bourree BWV 996
Bach (Hans Fagius)- Toccata And Fugue BWV 565 - Toccata
Dowland (Jacob Lindberg)- Lady Clifton's Spirit
Mendelssohn (Peter Nagy)- (songs without words) no 17 in a minor opus 38 no 5
Weiss (Robert Barto)- Sonata no 34 in D minor - prelude

Other:
Arcturus - Ad Astra
Chaostar - The Accident In Ambere
Fear Factory - Self Bias Resistor
Megadeth - Set The World Afire
Opeth - The Grand Conjuration
Pantera - Walk
Queen - More Of That Jazz
Sepultura - Ratamahatta
The Prodigy - Breathe
Therion - The Rise Of Sodom And Gomorrah
Winds - The Fireworks Of Genesis

 

[Ernst]

I went to a small store and got a price offer lower than I expected for both the RX497 and the B&W 686 and 685 (about 30% lower than I previously had seen during extensive research on the internet), both speakers I'd previously considered out of range. However, this is mainly a repair shop, no listening room although they do sell equipment. The 7355 was more expensive than the cheapest I'd seen so far, but seemed at the regular price.

I then went to another store (part of a chain) where I knew they do have a listening room. There they don't have Onkyo, nor B&W, and they did not have the RX497 in store. So, I listened to some speakers, albeit with a slightly more expensive receiver (RX797), and a different cd player (yamaha cd-s300).

After asking how I like my sound and what genres, the salesman let me listen to some speakers, he thought about Wharfedale and Polk. We started with the disc I'd brought with sonatas for lute vol 8, part of the excellent naxos series of sonatas by Weiss played by Robert Barto.

First up were the Wharfedales, and they were terrible. Booming bass on a solo soft instrumental recording. Next were Canton which he added in to the mix after noticing how much I disliked the Wharfies. These were good, as were the Polks that came after.

Then some doom metal, Skepticism's March And The Stream. To my surprise, the Wharfedales did sound fine here, where I expected another round of booming bass. The Cantons did possibly edge out the Polks here, but both sounded good.

Next again classical, Bizet's Carmen suite. Here he added also some Boses into the mix, which were quite terrible with booming mids. The Cantons did edge out the Polks ahead of the Wharfedales, but all three sounded good, much clearer than I'd heard this recording before.

Now came pricing with the Cantons turning out to be the GLE430, more expensive than the 685s though about 10% cheaper than on the internet, and the pricing for the receiver higher than in the other store. The cd player also more expensive than the Onkyo in the other store.

Noticing that abroad the 685s are about 50% more expensive than the 430s, should I just go for them, especially since I can take them back to the store if I don't like them? And also get the option when I buy a system from the small shop to get two pairs of speakers home (B&W and Polk) to compare them at home.

Now, I'm still wondering what model the Wharfedales, Polks, and Boses were. I was tired and forgot to ask. The salesman said the Wharfedales were Evos, but they had two front bass reflex ports, and I couldn't find any Evos with those so maybe he made a mistake and it were Diamond 9s. The Boses can have been 201s or 301s, they look quite similar. The Polks didn't have any special look so I don't have a clue at all. Any ideas? Just curious.

Also, for how long do I buy the system? I'm thinking I should count on ten years.

 

[Ernst]

Well, I bought it. Yamaha RX497 + Onkyo DC7355 + B&W 685. This was after hearing from my dad the size of their contribution. It means only a very small part is from my pocket.

I still need to decide how to put everything on the wall though. There are clamping systems for speakers and other wall mounts that screw into the speakers. Since the speakers I bought do already have such a mount point built in, the latter does seem the better option. Exact placement is for another thread.