advice for new system

[shadyJ]

For the subs, the Rythmik D15 will probably sound the cleanest and looks the sharpest, but won't have a huge amount of output. The VTF15h is very large but will sound nice and get very loud, louder than the others you listed. It is tuned a bit high for such a huge sub, but will get you fairly deep bass. Its sound can also be customized to a pretty good extent. The VTF3 is like the VTF15h, but smaller, less aggressive looking, and does not have quite the output. It is still large and still can get very loud though, and it also has the cusomizability in sound. I think it probably does deep bass better than the VTF15h, it seems to have a lower tuning point. The Outlaw LFM-1 Plus will get pretty loud as well, but not quite have the deep bass of the VTF3. At its current price, there is no reason not to get two. A two sub system would have a host of advantages over the others, although it probably still wouldn't surpass the sheer output of the VTF15h.

If I had to choose between these subs, I would go for the dual Outlaw subs, that way you won't have to worry about localization, providing you don't place them both in the same spot. With two subs, you will also get a flatter frequency response throughout every listening position in your room, you will get less distortion per decibel, you will be able to raise the crossover point if you want louder mid and upper bass and not have to worry about localization, and with the LFM-1 Plus, you will have a nice amount of headroom and also some pretty deep bass if you run them in max extension mode. If you have friends over, they might be a bit more impressed by the punch of the VTF15h, but I still think they would be blown away by a dual LFM-1 Plus setup.

 

[wxiao]

For the subs, the Rythmik D15 will probably sound the cleanest and looks the sharpest, but won't have a huge amount of output. The VTF15h is very large but will sound nice and get very loud, louder than the others you listed. It is tuned a bit high for such a huge sub, but will get you fairly deep bass. Its sound can also be customized to a pretty good extent. The VTF3 is like the VTF15h, but smaller, less aggressive looking, and does not have quite the output. It is still large and still can get very loud though, and it also has the cusomizability in sound. I think it probably does deep bass better than the VTF15h, it seems to have a lower tuning point. The Outlaw LFM-1 Plus will get pretty loud as well, but not quite have the deep bass of the VTF3. At its current price, there is no reason not to get two. A two sub system would have a host of advantages over the others, although it probably still wouldn't surpass the sheer output of the VTF15h.

If I had to choose between these subs, I would go for the dual Outlaw subs, that way you won't have to worry about localization, providing you don't place them both in the same spot. With two subs, you will also get a flatter frequency response throughout every listening position in your room, you will get less distortion per decibel, you will be able to raise the crossover point if you want louder mid and upper bass and not have to worry about localization, and with the LFM-1 Plus, you will have a nice amount of headroom and also some pretty deep bass if you run them in max extension mode. If you have friends over, they might be a bit more impressed by the punch of the VTF15h, but I still think they would be blown away by a dual LFM-1 Plus setup.

Thanks again. If I get dual subs, I must find a receiver that can do 5.2/7.2, right? Also, is it hard to calibrate two subs? (remember I am a newbie)

 

[shadyJ]

No, you do not need a receiver that does the .2. If the receiver does not have two subwoofer outputs, all you need is a RCA Y-splitter and hook the subs up to that. The receiver will treat the two subs as one.

The Yamaha RX-A3000 and A3010 do handle two subs as two subs and will integrate them as such, as does the Denon's AVR-A100 and AVR-4311Cl, the Integra DTR-70.2, Onkyo's TX -SR5008 and 3008. They may make a dual sub system sound better, but they are all fairly expensive receivers.

 

[wxiao]

No, you do not need a receiver that does the .2. If the receiver does not have two subwoofer outputs, all you need is a RCA Y-splitter and hook the subs up to that. The receiver will treat the two subs as one.

The Yamaha RX-A3000 and A3010 do handle two subs as two subs and will integrate them as such, as does the Denon's AVR-A100 and AVR-4311Cl, the Integra DTR-70.2, Onkyo's TX -SR5008 and 3008. They may make a dual sub system sound better, but they are all fairly expensive receivers.

The one you suggested, Onkyo TXNR 809, also has 7.2. It should handle the dual subs without the splitter then.

 

[shadyJ]

It doesn't have 7.2 exactly, it only has two sub-outs in case you have more than one sub. The .2 means that the subs will be sent two different signals. Even though the 809 has two sub outs, the subs will both be playing back the same exact information, it really isn't any different than of you were using a Y-splitter with one sub-out.

 

[DenPureSound]

Speakers (including subwoofers) make more difference for the sound than anything else. My advice is to spend as little as possible on the receiver, buying a good brand (e.g., Yamaha, Pioneer, Marantz, Denon), and spend all the rest on speakers.

Of course, you will want to make sure you have all the features you need in the receiver, but features do not generally give you better sound.

I was running a $600 receiver with speakers that retailed for over $6k, and it sounded great. I replaced the receiver with one that retails for about $1700, and unless I engage a feature that affects the sound, it sounds the same as the $600 receiver.

On the other hand, with lesser speakers, I would hear a difference, so putting money into speakers makes a lot of sense if you care about actual sound quality.

Now, if my speakers were inefficient or a difficult load, then it might have made a difference in sound, as the new receiver can put out about twice as much power as the old one, but the old one could drive my speakers to levels that I found painful with crystal clarity, so I have no need for the extra power.

In general, if you end up selecting difficult to drive speakers, you will want to go with a separate power amp and a receiver with preamp outputs instead of trying to get a powerful enough receiver to drive them. But if you don't get difficult to drive speakers, paying for extra power is a waste of money.

My advice is to go out into the world and listen to as many brands of speakers, and to as many types of speakers (e.g., ribbons, domes, horns, whatever) as you can stand to listen to. Different people value different things in sound, and so they have wildly different preferences from each other. Some people love horns, and others hate them. I personally tend to like ribbon speakers, but that is irrelevant to you, as what matters for you is whatever produces sound that you like, and you won't know what that is without going out into the world and auditioning a bunch of speakers.

For a subwoofer, there are a number of good brands, but I would go with SVS (and have done so).

Totally agree, get a good AVR, a sub or two, and Spend ALL the BIG money on the Speakers at least 60-70% of the total cost. This is where you will get the Biggest Bang for your buck -- in the Speakers!!

So, say you have $2K to spend -- put out $500-$700 for AVR w/ Internet connectivity and Pre-Amps OUT so later if you wish you can add an external amp, $50 Monoprice cables, and the rest into the Speakers!

 

[wxiao]

It doesn't have 7.2 exactly, it only has two sub-outs in case you have more than one sub. The .2 means that the subs will be sent two different signals. Even though the 809 has two sub outs, the subs will both be playing back the same exact information, it really isn't any different than of you were using a Y-splitter with one sub-out.

I see. Can it still take advantage of the good features you mentioned in the previous post? I mean the following:

"you will also get a flatter frequency response throughout every listening position in your room, you will be able to raise the crossover point if you want louder mid and upper bass and not have to worry about localization, and with the LFM-1 Plus, you will have a nice amount of headroom and also some pretty deep bass if you run them in max extension mode."

 

[lsiberian]

This is what I am thinking about right now:

front left/right: Primus p362
center: Primus p350
Surrounds: Primus p162
Subwoofer: LFM-1 plus (Should I buy two?)
receiver: Onkyo TX-NR-809, or Pioneer sc-55 (or sc-35?). There was a suggestion that the sc-55 is an overkill but it is running a huge sale right now.

Aren't those kind of larger for surrounds? Do you happen to have any speakers already? Even HTIB works fine for surround duty.

The Primus front set is good.

Why not get an 808?
Onkyo TX-NR808 7.2-Channel 3-D Ready Network A/V Receiver | Accessories4less

A 708 is even cheaper
Onkyo TX-NR708 7.2-Channel 3-D Ready Network A/V Receiver | Accessories4less

That really opens up your options at the sub position.

 

[shadyJ]

I see. Can it still take advantage of the good features you mentioned in the previous post? I mean the following:

"you will also get a flatter frequency response throughout every listening position in your room, you will be able to raise the crossover point if you want louder mid and upper bass and not have to worry about localization, and with the LFM-1 Plus, you will have a nice amount of headroom and also some pretty deep bass if you run them in max extension mode."

Yes, those aren't features, they are just the advantages of having multiple subwoofers, at least if you set them up right. Place each sub near the left and right fronts, set the crossover to 80 hz, and it will be like your front left rights have some serious bass- you won't be able to tell the speakers stop and the subs start, which is the goal here.

 

[Pyrrho]

Thanks a lot for the suggestions. My problem is I live in upstate New York, and there is really no place where I can actually go and listen to these speakers. I pretty much rely on expert opinions for this purchase.

Go into the nearest town that has decent audio stores to audition speakers. It will be well worthwhile to do this to help you select the speakers that you will like the best. We are talking about a couple of thousand dollars being spent; don't you think it is a good idea to be careful about how it is spent? Unless you are planning on spending a lot of money in the near future, you will be living with your choice for a long time, so it is important to take the time and effort to make a good choice.

Also, when they come out with some new format or feature for home theater, you don't need to upgrade your speakers, so the only reason you will upgrade them is if you select unsatisfactory speakers or something happens to them.

As for matching speakers, as others have said, the surround matters far less than the front speakers matching. On a very tight budget, I would recommend going with something cheap for the surround speakers. However, mattering far less does not mean that it does not matter at all; I use identical speakers for all channels (except subwoofer obviously) and I will never go back to different speakers for different positions, even ones that are supposedly "voice matched".

Also, regarding whether to go with towers or bookshelf speakers in the front, if one is looking at two models at the same price, typically one will be looking at a higher line of bookshelf speaker than tower speaker. Often, the tower speaker will be able to play louder, but the bookshelf speaker will sound better (remember, it is from a higher line). You need to decide what matters to you in making your selection, and obviously, you need to judge the matter regarding the specific speakers you select, not what is generally true.


In my case, I use the bookshelf speakers in this brochure:

http://www.kellsieavdesign.com/AC_brochure002.JPG

Tower models in the brochure would be able to play louder, but the bookshelf speakers can play louder than I need, and the difference in bass is irrelevant because I use subwoofers to take care of the bass anyway. I saved thousands going with the bookshelf speakers (these speakers are out of your budget, but the same principle generally applies with other brands and models at about any price point.

Regarding the subwoofer, at your price point, I would go with one good subwoofer instead of with two lesser ones. One reason being that it makes a future upgrade easier and cheaper, as one simply can buy a second subwoofer just like the one already purchased, instead of selling off the two that one bought to upgrade. You will almost certainly lose money when you sell off the gear you bought, so it is best if you buy things that are good enough that you never want to replace them.

 

[wxiao]

Regarding the subwoofer, at your price point, I would go with one good subwoofer instead of with two lesser ones. One reason being that it makes a future upgrade easier and cheaper, as one simply can buy a second subwoofer just like the one already purchased, instead of selling off the two that one bought to upgrade. You will almost certainly lose money when you sell off the gear you bought, so it is best if you buy things that are good enough that you never want to replace them.

Thanks for the suggestions. But now I am getting undecided about single/dual subwoofers...

 

[wxiao]

Ordered everything! Well, everything except the subwoofers. I am still undecided about the dual/single subwoofer thing. The list is

Rythmic Audio D15-SE
Hsu vtf-15h
Hsu vtf3 mk4
LFM-1 plus (on sale)

Some last minute advice is greatly appreciated.