Adding a used ATI, Parasound or Anthem amp for LCR....

[drummertime]

Hello and thanks in advance!
I'm currently running: Marantz SR-7011 | Outlaw 7000X | LG OLED 65" | Kef R7's Mains | Kef R2c Center | Elac Uni-Fi 2.0 Rear Surrounds | Elac Uni-Fi Slim Back Rear Surrounds | Elac Debut IC-DT61 6.5" Height | Starke 15 dual subs. I read a ton of different views when it comes to "low budget amplifiers" in comparison with the "upper echelon amplifiers". I've really been looking at used ATI, Parasound or Anthem amps. For instance Parasound Halo A21 Stereo Power Amplifier, posted for 1200, really great looking shape. But my question is, will using these "upper echelon amplifiers" really be worth the cost? I'm happy with my current setup, but feel as though my front 3 speakers would benefit from a really great amplifier. Since the 7000X is rated at 130RMS per channel, I'd like to find something around the 250RMS or a multi-channel amp that can be bridged on a couple channels. In your humble opinions, I'm I just wasting money or would this be beneficial enough to really make a difference in sound quality. I would say decibels as well, but really you only gain roughly 3db for ever 100 watts per channel.

 

[dolynick]

This fall I picked up an Outlaw 5000X to add 4 more channels for heights to go with the 7 channels of Anthem Statement A series amplification I already had for the 7.1 bed. I did a basic listening test on all 5 channels of the 5000x on the mains in place of the A2 before I moved it into its final configuration. The Outlaw sounded very good. I didn't have a switcher to easily try to A/B, but I could tell that I would be hard pressed (if I could at all) to tell the two apart if I did.

Don't get me wrong, I still love my Anthems and have no real itch to upgrade them. That being said, I think you'll find that competently made amplifiers aren't going sound dramatically different. If you want more power, that's another matter, but as you said you may not be gaining a whole lot from it either.

I can still understand the itch to move up something "higher end". But if you do, don't be surprised that the primary gain is, in the end, just your own satisfaction in "having nice things".

 

[drummertime]

This fall I picked up an Outlaw 5000X to add 4 more channels for heights to go with the 7 channels of Anthem Statement A series amplification I already had for the 7.1 bed. I did a basic listening test on all 5 channels of the 5000x on the mains in place of the A2 before I moved it into it's final configuration. The Outlaw sounded very good. I didn't have a switcher to easily try to A/B, but I could tell that I would be hard pressed (if I could at all) to tell the two apart if I did.

Don't get me wrong, I still love my Anthems and have have no real itch to upgrade them. That being said, I think you'll find that well competently made amplifiers aren't going sound dramatically different. If you want more power, that's another matter, but as you said you may not be gaining a whole lot from it either.

I can still understand the itch to move up something "higher end". But if you do, don't be surprised that the primary gain is, in the end, just your own satisfaction in "having nice things".

Thanks for the insight That's exactly sort of info I'm looking for.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Naw, you're fine. Keep your current electronics. Your setup is great.

 

[lovinthehd]

The amp brands you mention aren't going to be audibly different from the Outlaw amp if comparing within the Outlaw's capabilities. If you need/want more power that's a different subject. Rather than bridging I'd simply get the amp capable of what you need/want without bridging (as you trade off lower impedance capabilities with bridging). It's not particularly every 100w that gets 3dB, it's a doubling of power needed to gain that 3dB....and when getting an external amp I just would have gotten more power to begin with, the X7000 isn't all that different from your avr's amps.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The amp brands you mention aren't going to be audibly different from the Outlaw amp if comparing within the Outlaw's capabilities. If you need/want more power that's a different subject. Rather than bridging I'd simply get the amp capable of what you need/want without bridging (as you trade off lower impedance capabilities with bridging). It's not particularly every 100w that gets 3dB, it's a doubling of power needed to gain that 3dB....and when getting an external amp I just would have gotten more power to begin with, the X7000 isn't all that different from your avr's amps.

Agreed.

I would have just used the Marantz AVR by itself and not bother with an external amp.

But if I'm buying an external amp for whatever reason (like power requirement or bragging rights/pride of ownership ), it might as well be something like an ATI 200WPC amp.

Games we play.

 

[drummertime]

The amp brands you mention aren't going to be audibly different from the Outlaw amp if comparing within the Outlaw's capabilities. If you need/want more power that's a different subject. Rather than bridging I'd simply get the amp capable of what you need/want without bridging (as you trade off lower impedance capabilities with bridging). It's not particularly every 100w that gets 3dB, it's a doubling of power needed to gain that 3dB....and when getting an external amp I just would have gotten more power to begin with, the X7000 isn't all that different from your avr's amps.

I appreciate the reply
Actually the SR-7011 specs are as follows:

• Number of Poweramps9
• Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% 2ch Drive)
• Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.05% 2ch Drive)125 W
• Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 0.7% 2ch Drive)165 W
• Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 10% 1ch Drive)235 W
• 70% Guarantee Yes

Which running the numbers, technically if you run all 9 channels you're essentially getting 70% max power. So that is 87.5 W per channel. With the Outlaw 7000X I'm getting 130 W RMS per seven channels. Regardless, the Outlaw is worlds ahead of what my Marantz in terms of volume and clarity. I couldn't believe how much my surrounds and LCR channels came alive. At the time, that's all I could afford!

 

[lovinthehd]

I appreciate the reply
Actually the SR-7011 specs are as follows:

• Number of Poweramps9
• Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% 2ch Drive)
• Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.05% 2ch Drive)125 W
• Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 0.7% 2ch Drive)165 W
• Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 10% 1ch Drive)235 W
• 70% Guarantee Yes

Which running the numbers, technically if you run all 9 channels you're essentially getting 70% max power. So that is 87.5 W per channel. With the Outlaw 7000X I'm getting 130 W RMS per seven channels. Regardless, the Outlaw is worlds ahead of what my Marantz in terms of volume and clarity. I couldn't believe how much my surrounds and LCR channels came alive. At the time, that's all I could afford!

You generally don't have equal output from all channels, the ACD thing is so overrated and over-worried about. Do you use multi-ch stereo as a playback mode? That could be a bit more demanding than a surround mode.

Still not a significant difference in general power between the two, and there is no reason it would have much more volume than the Marantz (1-2 dB perhaps) let alone "clarity" whatever that is. Plus you had no particularly good way to test/compare them, especially to exclude expectation bias. I have some fairly powerful amps (250wpc, 300wpc and 400wpc) and they don't make that sort of difference.

 

[drummertime]

You generally don't have equal output from all channels, the ACD thing is so overrated and over-worried about. Do you use multi-ch stereo as a playback mode? That could be a bit more demanding than a surround mode.

Still not a significant difference in general power between the two, and there is no reason it would have much more volume than the Marantz (1-2 dB perhaps) let alone "clarity" whatever that is. Plus you had no particularly good way to test/compare them, especially to exclude expectation bias. I have some fairly powerful amps (250wpc, 300wpc and 400wpc) and they don't make that sort of difference.

So out of curiosity if the larger amps don't make that much of a difference, why buy them? Not trying to be a pest or sound demeaning, but mainly trying to educate myself! To me from an architectural standpoint, having a fully dedicated toroidal power supply without any extra's as the Outlaw amp has. This to me, is superior to anything the Marantz can supply from a channel wattage standpoint?

 

[lovinthehd]

So out of curiosity if the larger amps don't make that much of a difference, why buy them? Not trying to be a pest or sound demeaning, but mainly trying to educate myself! To me from an architectural standpoint, having a fully dedicated toroidal power supply without any extra's as the Outlaw amp has. This to me, is superior to anything the Marantz can supply from a channel wattage standpoint?

Depends on your speakers and your listening levels as to how much amp you want/need, asides from spl capabilities, sometimes a more powerful amp will have an advantage for harder to drive speakers (lower impedance, odd phase angles, that sort of thing).

Many years ago I went from a 70wpc amp in a receiver to a 250wpc power amp (with separate pre-amp) and was rather disappointed compared to what that general reputation said as to how much difference that would make; it was a bit louder and perhaps a bit cleaner at higher spls, but not the "night and day" kind of thing let alone some sort of obvious sound quality difference. A toroidal power supply isn't necessarily better than an EI type, like many things audio depends on the whole package/execution, not just form of the power supply. Keep in mind you're still playing thru the avr even with a power amp, and are limited somewhat by it.

If I do spend money on a power amp (most of mine are on diy sub duties these days, and one set on mains in my largest room....also just because I have amps to spare....at my old man listening levels am being nicer to my ears these days). I do want the most capable amp for the cost that I can find, though....and there are quite a few capable amps out there at a wide variety of prices (and features and aesthetics). From Outlaw would rather have one of their ATI built amps, not only more powerful than their X amps, but likely of better overall build quality and more US content (if that matters to you). For me aesthetics of an amp aren't particularly important either. YMMV.

 

[ryanosaur]

So out of curiosity if the larger amps don't make that much of a difference, why buy them? Not trying to be a pest or sound demeaning, but mainly trying to educate myself! To me from an architectural standpoint, having a fully dedicated toroidal power supply without any extra's as the Outlaw amp has. This to me, is superior to anything the Marantz can supply from a channel wattage standpoint?

One could argue for Speakers that are truly difficult loads, having more robust amplification could be advantageous. At that point you are likely to be looking very closely at the minutia of the specs, especially if you like to push SPL very high.

For me, you'll see I went for robust amplification and all are mono blocks. This isn't because I felt it was going to do something to my system I couldn't get from other Amps, rather I shopped smart and picked based on best value. Knowing that I rarely or ever push them to their limits is nice because they means they should last a good long while.

You pointed out in your first post that the increase of power doesn't even mean a significant increase in output. For that, every doubling of power is +3dB... 1, 2, 4, 8, etc.
I haven't seen any indication the KEF R7s are a difficult load and they claim 8ohm impedance. That said, we've seen other "8 ohm" Speakers that drop to 3.2 where power demands are at their highest. Without seeing the Electrical Behavior of the R7, its kind of moot to take that line of discussion much further.

Beyond that, the only other real aspect of choosing another Amp would be if you know how loud you listen, and what that means in Dynamic Peak. If you listen at near reference level (85dB) and you listen to music with strong dynamics or use this for HT, you may well see 105dB. At 1 meter, an 88dB rated Speaker would use roughly 53 W to play 105dB.
At that point, figure in your actual seating distance and how that affects your listening volume at your MLP and how much additional power is required to achieve that goal. In a medium room, at 2m, you may only lose 3dB, translating to roughly 106w to hit your peaks.
Next, decide if you want some headroom beyond that to make certain the Amp is staying in its more linear comfort zone...
And this where the conversation turns to not just what you need to listen at your normal SPL, but a sort of security blanket because another 3dB of headroom is now 212w in this hypothetical scenario.



All of this is to say, if you want some new amplification, it's OK. Do it with the intention of making certain you can hit whatever SPL you want to without overdriving the Amp into distortion. You already seem to get that it won't necessarily affect SQ. So it's really about your own state of being. Maybe "pride of ownership" as ADTG likes to say.

If you are going to step up from the Outlaw, just make certain you are doing it in a way that will at least give you something for it. In that hypothetical, 250w would cover the dynamic peak with headroom. For you and your actual needs, only you can really define where the value may lie in this.

 

[drummertime]

One could argue for Speakers that are truly difficult loads, having more robust amplification could be advantageous. At that point you are likely to be looking very closely at the minutia of the specs, especially if you like to push SPL very high.

For me, you'll see I went for robust amplification and all are mono blocks. This isn't because I felt it was going to do something to my system I couldn't get from other Amps, rather I shopped smart and picked based on best value. Knowing that I rarely or ever push them to their limits is nice because they means they should last a good long while.

You pointed out in your first post that the increase of power doesn't even mean a significant increase in output. For that, every doubling of power is +3dB... 1, 2, 4, 8, etc.
I haven't seen any indication the KEF R7s are a difficult load and they claim 8ohm impedance. That said, we've seen other "8 ohm" Speakers that drop to 3.2 where power demands are at their highest. Without seeing the Electrical Behavior of the R7, its kind of moot to take that line of discussion much further.

Beyond that, the only other real aspect of choosing another Amp would be if you know how loud you listen, and what that means in Dynamic Peak. If you listen at near reference level (85dB) and you listen to music with strong dynamics or use this for HT, you may well see 105dB. At 1 meter, an 88dB rated Speaker would use roughly 53 W to play 105dB.
At that point, figure in your actual seating distance and how that affects your listening volume at your MLP and how much additional power is required to achieve that goal. In a medium room, at 2m, you may only lose 3dB, translating to roughly 106w to hit your peaks.
Next, decide if you want some headroom beyond that to make certain the Amp is staying in its more linear comfort zone...
And this where the conversation turns to not just what you need to listen at your normal SPL, but a sort of security blanket because another 3dB of headroom is now 212w in this hypothetical scenario.



All of this is to say, if you want some new amplification, it's OK. Do it with the intention of making certain you can hit whatever SPL you want to without overdriving the Amp into distortion. You already seem to get that it won't necessarily affect SQ. So it's really about your own state of being. Maybe "pride of ownership" as ADTG likes to say.

If you are going to step up from the Outlaw, just make certain you are doing it in a way that will at least give you something for it. In that hypothetical, 250w would cover the dynamic peak with headroom. For you and your actual needs, only you can really define where the value may lie in this.

Thank you for your thoughts and breakdown of how and why a person would decide on more robust amplification! I noticed you're using a Hypex NC400 DIY? After researching this is very interesting and goes to show that Class D amplification has came a long way it terms of competing with A/B amplifiers. I'm quite skilled at building electronics, this would be a great DIY project. Thoughts?

 

[ryanosaur]

Thank you for your thoughts and breakdown of how and why a person would decide on more robust amplification! I noticed you're using a Hypex NC400 DIY? After researching this is very interesting and goes to show that Class D amplification has came a long way it terms of competing with A/B amplifiers. I'm quite skilled at building electronics, this would be a great DIY project. Thoughts?

I’m very happy with the Hypex Amps. The newer Nilai 500 is replacing the older NC400. If they still offer the kits for the NC400, there is no reason not to order some that I can think of. Believe me, I thought about ordering some Nilai Kits, myself as an upgrade.

That said, there are also the options of buying from Somebody like Dylan at Buckeye Amps here in the US. The NCx500 Amps are also newly released and measure exceptionally well. His costs are very completive and well worth considering if you didn't want to play with a soldering iron.

If you really want to step all the way up to pride of ownership, the Purifi Amps are sort of the bees knees. At this level, the distinction is pretty much all inaudible.

 

[drummertime]

I’m very happy with the Hypex Amps. The newer Nilai 500 is replacing the older NC400. If they still offer the kits for the NC400, there is no reason not to order some that I can think of. Believe me, I thought about ordering some Nilai Kits, myself as an upgrade.

That said, there are also the options of buying from Somebody like Dylan at Buckeye Amps here in the US. The NCx500 Amps are also newly released and measure exceptionally well. His costs are very completive and well worth considering if you didn't want to play with a soldering iron.

If you really want to step all the way up to pride of ownership, the Purifi Amps are sort of the bees knees. At this level, the distinction is pretty much all inaudible.

After reviewing the Buckeye amps, that might be the way to go! Cannot believe they can get that kind of power to weight ratio. Plus they do have triggering as well. I emailed Dylan to see what he'd recommend. I assume its okay to run both A/B and Class D through my receiver pre-outs? The Outlaw does great by the surrounds. I think more or less I'd like to have the headroom to make certain the Amp is staying in its more linear comfort zone.

 

[ryanosaur]

After reviewing the Buckeye amps, that might be the way to go! Cannot believe they can get that kind of power to weight ratio. Plus they do have triggering as well. I emailed Dylan to see what he'd recommend. I assume its okay to run both A/B and Class D through my receiver pre-outs? The Outlaw does great by the surrounds. I think more or less I'd like to have the headroom to make certain the Amp is staying in its more linear comfort zone.

No issues running different Class Amps through your Pre-Outs. I have Outlaw Monoblocks running as well.

 

[lovinthehd]

After reviewing the Buckeye amps, that might be the way to go! Cannot believe they can get that kind of power to weight ratio. Plus they do have triggering as well. I emailed Dylan to see what he'd recommend. I assume its okay to run both A/B and Class D through my receiver pre-outs? The Outlaw does great by the surrounds. I think more or less I'd like to have the headroom to make certain the Amp is staying in its more linear comfort zone.

What power to weight ratio is meaningful may depend on a lot of things but class d is just not comparable that way generally..

 

[PENG]

So out of curiosity if the larger amps don't make that much of a difference, why buy them? Not trying to be a pest or sound demeaning, but mainly trying to educate myself! To me from an architectural standpoint, having a fully dedicated toroidal power supply without any extra's as the Outlaw amp has. This to me, is superior to anything the Marantz can supply from a channel wattage standpoint?

People buy them for various reasons, including but not limited to the following:
- they need the rated output.
- they have no need, but like the look, feel, build quality, extra output to standby if ever need the extra.
- heard, or read from others, on forums, dealers, friends, reviews including Youtubers, all hearsay stuff...
- misread and/or misinterpreted specs, so thought the larger amp will give them better sound quality.
- heard the better sound quality with those amps, but it's just in the head, no better sound if done in blind tests.

On the last point, of course, many actually heard the better sound but in most (but not all) cases, it could be due to other factors than the actual amp, in other words, if listen to their own smaller amps, or even their AVR, the sound quality will be the same or only subtly different, if compared under the same conditions.

Don't believe forum members like us, read expert opinions, such as those from Dr. Gedlee, Olive, Toole, they all will tell you people should pay more attention to speakers and rooms, not amplifiers that are on the right side of the curve of diminishing return.

The R7's nominal impedance according to KEF is 8 ohm nominal, but many of us would say treat it like 4 ohm nominal for the purpose of sizing your amp.

Amp power recommended (by KEF) is 15-250 W, so the SR7011 should be adequate but if you want to cover all conditions of use, any amps rated for 250 W/350 W 8/4 ohms should have you covered. If you currently listen to music/movies with volume of the SR7011 no higher than say -15 90% of the time, then I doubt you will hear "better sound quality" using external amps but you will, unless you compare them without being subjected to the unavoidable bias/Placebo. People will say the difference they heard was so obvious that there is no need to do it "blind", but in all available serious studies, even people who were so confident, failed.

I think by now, your question "I'm I just wasting money or would this be beneficial enough to really make a difference in sound quality. I would say decibels as well, but really you only gain roughly 3db for ever 100 watts per channel. " It is of course up to you to believe, or not.... My suggestion is, go and get that amp you like, just don't expect to hear "better sound quality", and if you do hear, or think you hear better sound quality, you will be very happy. If not, it is not a waste of money because there are other reasons aide from audibly better sound quality but then worth it or not is a subjective matter.

 

[cpp]

People buy them for various reasons, including but not limited to the following:
- they need the rated output.
- they have no need, but like the look, feel, build quality, extra output to standby if ever need the extra.
- heard, or read from others, on forums, dealers, friends, reviews including Youtubers, all hearsay stuff...
- misread and/or misinterpreted specs, so thought the larger amp will give them better sound quality.
- heard the better sound quality with those amps, but it's just in the head, no better sound if done in blind tests.

On the last point, of course, many actually heard the better sound but in most (but not all) cases, it could be due to other factors than the actual amp, in other words, if listen to their own smaller amps, or even their AVR, the sound quality will be the same or only subtly different, if compared under the same conditions.

Don't believe forum members like us, read expert opinions, such as those from Dr. Gedlee, Olive, Toole, they all will tell you people should pay more attention to speakers and rooms, not amplifiers that are on the right side of the curve of diminishing return.

The R7's nominal impedance according to KEF is 8 ohm nominal, but many of us would say treat it like 4 ohm nominal for the purpose of sizing your amp.

Amp power recommended (by KEF) is 15-250 W, so the SR7011 should be adequate but if you want to cover all conditions of use, any amps rated for 250 W/350 W 8/4 ohms should have you covered. If you currently listen to music/movies with volume of the SR7011 no higher than say -15 90% of the time, then I doubt you will hear "better sound quality" using external amps but you will, unless you compare them without being subjected to the unavoidable bias/Placebo. People will say the difference they heard was so obvious that there is no need to do it "blind", but in all available serious studies, even people who were so confident, failed.

I think by now, your question "I'm I just wasting money or would this be beneficial enough to really make a difference in sound quality. I would say decibels as well, but really you only gain roughly 3db for ever 100 watts per channel. " It is of course up to you to believe, or not.... My suggestion is, go and get that amp you like, just don't expect to hear "better sound quality", and if you do hear, or think you hear better sound quality, you will be very happy. If not, it is not a waste of money because there are other reasons aide from audibly better sound quality but then worth it or not is a subjective matter.

View attachment 66469

I wonder how different the Kef R7 is compared to the Kef R700 which Adkinson did measure. From what I got from my Kef dealer the R7 is just an updated R700 with a newer cabinet and driver.
He noted;
"My estimate of the KEF R700's B-weighted voltage sensitivity was 87dB(B)/2.83V/m, which is 2dB lower than the specified 89dB/2.83V/m. KEF specifies the R700's impedance as 8 ohms with a minimum magnitude of 3.2 ohms. My own measurement (fig.1) shows that the minimum impedance, which includes the impedance of 10' of speaker cable, was 3.3 ohms at 145Hz. The impedance magnitude (solid trace) remains between 4 and 6 ohms for almost all of the audioband, but the electrical phase angle (dashed trace) is generally benign.

 

[PENG]

I wonder how different the Kef R7 is compared to the Kef R700 which Adkinson did measure. From what I got from my Kef dealer the R7 is just an updated R700 with a newer cabinet and driver.
He noted;
"My estimate of the KEF R700's B-weighted voltage sensitivity was 87dB(B)/2.83V/m, which is 2dB lower than the specified 89dB/2.83V/m. KEF specifies the R700's impedance as 8 ohms with a minimum magnitude of 3.2 ohms. My own measurement (fig.1) shows that the minimum impedance, which includes the impedance of 10' of speaker cable, was 3.3 ohms at 145Hz. The impedance magnitude (solid trace) remains between 4 and 6 ohms for almost all of the audioband, but the electrical phase angle (dashed trace) is generally benign.

I think the crossovers are quite different too. The R meta series are now rated 4 ohms. The old R100 through R900 were rated 8 ohm nominal, with dips to 3.2 to 3.7 ohms.