Adding 2 channel amp to av reciever

MacManNM

MacManNM

Banned
kelly said:
Thank you for your reply. I also have klipsch refrence series RF7. I don't want to get any brighter, so probably wont be going with the rotel. I live in Indy too, so tell me who you have been doing all of the home demos with. So I can check them out. Have you heard the klipsch with any parasound equipment! I have heard good things about them, but don't know of any local dealers. Closest one Is Lafayette.

Those are very sensitive speakers, so you shouldn't need a whole lot of power to drive them. Take a look at Adcom, good value brand. As long as you get something that is quality you will be fine. Today's amps sound very similar, if the units are level matched you aren't going to hear a difference between amp A and amp B. When you will hear a difference is when there is a large demand, and amp A has less dynamic headroom than amp B, then amp B is going to sound much better. I personally like pro amps for home use, they have lots of power. are rugged, and will last basically forever.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
mulester7 said:
.....may all those who make defining statements on dedicated amplifiers with NO experience past 70 watts receive a HUGE pie in the face....it's pretty ridiculous to make such statements with no experience past the novice division, isn't it?....of course it is.......

My experience tell me that water has a magical power to bend objects when place in it, like a stick or a steel pipe. What should I make from that experience. LOL :D
 
R

rollinrocker

Audioholic
Let me make sure i've got this straight. The amp section of a properly functioning 100 watt reciever will sound the same as a 100 watt amp from krell, proceed or pass labs and therefore nothing will be gained from such an upgrade.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
MacManNM said:
Klipsch reference aren't top of the Klipsch line? News to me.
I did not say they were not top line Klipsch. I did say they were not so high end. That's in relative term only, in this case he was powering those speakers with amps like Krell KAV-2250 and Cary Audio Cinema 5. No doubt the Klipsch reference speakers are highly regarded.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
rollinrocker said:
Let me make sure i've got this straight. The amp section of a properly functioning 100 watt reciever will sound the same as a 100 watt amp from krell, proceed or pass labs and therefore nothing will be gained from such an upgrade.
That is correct, assuming both are delivering 100 watts into the respective load. However, it is plausible that a Krell 100 watt may be rated coservatively, and actually produce 150 watts, and a reciever may be rated enthusiasticly, producing an actual 75 watts.

-Chris
 
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rollinrocker

Audioholic
A 100 watt rec. weighs approx. 30-35lbs, while a 100 watt krell or proceed weighs approx. 90-110 lbs. Why the weight differential?
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
rollinrocker said:
A 100 watt rec. weighs approx. 30-35lbs, while a 100 watt krell or proceed weighs approx. 90-110 lbs. Why the weight differential?
Ever check out a Krell? Over-sized everything(heatsinks, power supply, chassis, etc.). And if it is Class A, then it's not oversized parts, it's just a very inefficient topology.

-Chris
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
rollinrocker said:
A 100 watt rec. weighs approx. 30-35lbs, while a 100 watt krell or proceed weighs approx. 90-110 lbs. Why the weight differential?
Not sure about the Proceed, the Krell Showcase Amplifier 7 outputs 125W X 7 into 8 ohms, 250W X7 into 4 ohms. It weighs only 60 lbs. A 100W X 7 receiver that weighs 35 lbs would likely output 80W X7 or less into 8 ohms and even less into 4 ohms. Amps usually have much larger and heavier power supplies in them.

Under 2 channel driven condition, many receivers, including Denon and Yamaha, can output 100 to 125 clean watts into 8 ohms and much more (but not double) into 4 ohms.
 
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rollinrocker

Audioholic
Why in the world would a designer make such choices? Would nelson pass be thinking "the heavier i make it, the more i can charge"?
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
rollinrocker said:
Why in the world would a designer make such choices? Would nelson pass be thinking "the heavier i make it, the more i can charge"?
One can only speculate(and in fact I will): It would seem that the more overbuilt something is, that perhaps the better quality it would be percieved as, seemingly justifying a higher price.

-Chris
 
toquemon

toquemon

Full Audioholic
WmAx said:
Ever check out a Krell? Over-sized everything(heatsinks, power supply, chassis, etc.). And if it is Class A, then it's not oversized parts, it's just a very inefficient topology.

-Chris
Yes, but sounds awsome!.

Even overbuilt electronics don't justify the price. Only in a few cases overbuilt electronics, like Odyssey amps, are in the right price.
 
I

indcrimdefense

Audioholic
my goal in home audio has always been simple, to have the best possible sound for the least amount of money. considering that my system is primarily only enjoyed by me, i don't make purchases based upon brand names, or power ratings, pixy dust, or salesperson recommendations.i base my purchases on demos of components in my system. i post my observations here hopefully to assist others in their quest for outstanding audio in their home systems.

as for adding an amplifier to a receiver, all that i have demoed made a noticeable difference, compared to powering my speakers with the receiver alone. the rotel 1080 added a bright & forward presentation which was not present with the receiver alone, as did the nakamichi pa-5II. vocals, particularly female vocals, actually sounded worse than just using the receiver alone. the b&k ref 125.2 had a much better sound quality, not bright in the least, and had a substantial impact on bass response for my front speakers. moving to a cary audio 5 further improved the bass response, and also had an overall better sound, very clean, detailed, excellant seperation between highs, mids and lows, and fantastic vocals. unfortunately i had a noise problem which may or may not have been a ground loop that i was never able to get rid of. the krell showcase 5 in comparison was a black hole, you literally had to put your ear to the tweeter to hear it without any music playing. i also thought the showcase 5 had a more detailed sound quality than the cary, but would attribute a good portion of this to the noise problems i had with the cary. the cary had better bass response, and more umph than the krell showcase. the krell also sounded much better with my receiver, and the cary sounded much better paired w/ the cary cinema 6. i finally purchased a krell kav-2250 to power my fronts which i found new on a significant sale, as it did it all well, fantastic detail, clarity, & bass response. however, as i have previously stated in multiple posts, adding an amplifier to a receiver does make a noticeable difference, but the best sound quality i have achieved at home is using an amplifier with a pre-amp/processor. the cary combo of the cinema 5 amp and cinema 6 pre-amp was spectacular for music, and greatly exceeded the performance of using a receiver & and amplifier, regardless of the amplifier. same results were achieved with a anthem avm 20 i am currently demoing. price considerations aside, i would recommend the avm 20 over the cinema 6 based on it's myriad set up options & greater ability to customize, and for including xlr inputs/outputs. i have only been able to use the xlr outputs, but it did reduce the noise floor. however it would hard to go wrong w/ the cary ciinema 6, esp. considering the 900 dollar lower msrp.


the reason i started by adding an amplifier to the receiver was to see if it improved the audio quality, not simply so i could play at louder listening volumes. my denon receiver is fully capable of playing very loud. the other problem i had with the denon was i felt i had to listen at far louder levels than i was comfortable with before the music sounded full bodied, and this was not the case with either the cary combo or the avm 20/krell. both the cary combo & the avm 20/krell sound much better in analog direct than the denon ext in (with or without an amplifier), even with the denon pure direct option selected, significantly better bass response, better detail and excellant seperation between highs/mids/lows.

adding an amplifier to at least a denon 2805 can make a noticeable difference, although in some cases the difference was actually worse with the amplifier than without. the best was w/ the krell showcase 5 & the b&k. but with any amp, the sound quality is not what i have heard from seperates. i wish it were the case that there was no improvement, and i would then be more than happy keeping my receiver and could stop shopping and spending money. but there is a significant improvement over the 2805 in music quality by using seperates. does this hold true for all receivers, i don't know, and can only comment on what i have experienced in hours upon hours of listening at home. i have never tried to justify why there is a difference in sound quality, that is better left to persons with better technical expertise than i possess. i listen to music, and report what i hear, and last time i checked that's what were all here to do, improve the quality of our home audio & video experience.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
rollinrocker said:
Let me make sure i've got this straight. The amp section of a properly functioning 100 watt reciever will sound the same as a 100 watt amp from krell, proceed or pass labs and therefore nothing will be gained from such an upgrade.

Yes, when you compare them under bias controlled protocol, volumes leveled to .1 dB spl and you don't exceed their design limits. This is well demonstrated over the past 30+ years, by the way.

You can accomplish the same results with a 50 watt amp and that Krell. Just keep in mind not to exceed the design limits of that 50 watt amp.

Wmax posted an interesting link recently. Give it a read:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/browse_frm/thread/664b8681ab141263/3fd91bcb6a1522a0?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rnum=1&prev=/groups?q=sunshine+stereo+yamaha+abx+nousaine&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=501fl6%24ac3%40oxy.rust.net&rnum=1#3fd91bcb6a1522a0
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
toquemon said:
Yes, but sounds awsome!.

.
Yes, bias is mysterious:D

But, only a DBT can equalize the process to make it a fair comparison. I bet, that awesomeness will disappear in a hurry.:D
 

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