Added Vinyl- looking for input, suggestions, monkey jokes, etc.

[adwilk]

I recently set up a dedicated music room and decided to add a turntable. The extent of my knowledge is limited- after only a few attempts I was able to open the box successfully. I purchased an Audio Technica LP-60 after reading some good reviews online and because the price was right. I didn't feel like I wanted to spend 2 months salary on this thing- especially since I didn't own any records. ANYway- I got it hooked up and made the mistake of posting about it on a subreddit. Little did I know that I had committed the holy grail of vinyl do-badded-ness and I'd have a better experience listening to my new vinyl records sizzling in a chemical fire. Live and learn I suppose.

Ok- so here's the question since I trust the members of this site to check the subjectivity and give me some real breakdown of that makes one little metal thing extract more/better info from a spinning hunk of plastic than another. What actually contributes to whats being heard and why should I sell my car to pay for a better box to play my dad's old Patsy Cline record? In the purest audio sense, what's the difference? If replacing my tone arm knob lets me hear the sweat in Knopflers headband, well then.. by all means, I'm in.

Pictures for.. well... audio porn.

 

[slipperybidness]

What's the problem here?

You think you got a "crappy" turntable cuz a bunch of people online said so?

How does it sound to you? Does it sound good, or does it sound like crap. You are the ultimate person that must be satisfied, not the online community!

I am not familiar with that model, but there are a couple people on this AH site that claim it is good bang for the buck. I know that IMCLoud liked the AT for what is and at the price points.

If you are looking for an upgrade, then the next step up the chain would be a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon DC, or a U-turn Orbit.

I own the Pro-ject Debut Carbon (non-DC version, see my avatar), and a Technics SL1210. Both fine turntables, with different strengths and weaknesses, and very different price points. Happy with each.

 

[adwilk]

But.. the only reason I do audio is to appease the online community! Seriously though, I do like it. It suits my needs perfectly at the moment. I just wanted a simple player and it works. I still am curious what makes player A sound better/different than player B. There can only be so much info on a record, right?

 

[Alex2507]

There's something going on with the mastering process that sometimes means the vinyl sounds better. In other words sometimes they mess up the SQ on CDs. That's it for that.

If you don't own any records and can maybe live without Patsy Cline you should just sell the record player.

 

[Swerd]

As we are well aware of your Photoshop prowess, I'm surprised at your modest looking rig . I expected more . Reddit? Patsy Cline? Really?

What makes an audible difference in vinyl record playback? Things directly on the signal path:

Vinyl record – It's condition is obviously important. Keep it clean of dust and fingerprints. Some pressings are better quality than others.

Pickup cartridge – It is where physical vibrations on the vinyl are transformed into low voltage electronic signals. Most people, myself included, have limited experience with the sound qualities from different cartridges because they are difficult to change.

Phono pre-amp – It amplifies the low voltage from the cartridge, about 2.5-5 mV to about 100-200 mV. It also equalizes the sound to correct for the way it was recorded on vinyl (see RIAA equalization). Again, I have very limited experience with different phono pre-amps.

There are some things not directly on the signal path that are also said to matter, perhaps not as much as the signal path items.

Tonearm – It must be able to accommodate a low-mass hifi pickup cartridge, often called "compliance". I have no direct experience with different tonearms.

Platter – It must rotate smoothly and resist transmitting physical vibrations to the playback. It is said that platters driven by belts do a bit better at this than those with direct drive, but there are plenty of exceptions.

Pretty much all the rest is voodoo.

 

[rojo]

A guy walks into a bar with his pet monkey. He orders a drink, and while he's drinking, the monkey jumps all over the place, eating everything behind the bar. Then the monkey jumps on to the pool table and swallows a billiard ball.

The bartender screams at the guy, "Your monkey just ate the cue ball off my pool table -- whole!"

"Sorry," replied the guy. "He eats everything in sight, the little bastard. I'll pay for everything."

The man finishes his drink, pays and leaves.

Two weeks later, he's in the bar with his pet monkey, again. He orders a drink, and the monkey starts running around the bar. The monkey finds a maraschino cherry on the bar. He grabs it, sticks it up his butt, pulls it out and eats it.

The bartender is disgusted. "Did you see what your monkey did now?" he asks.

"Yeah," replies the guy. "He still eats everything in sight, but ever since he swallowed that cue ball, he measures stuff first."

 

[3db]

As we are well aware of your Photoshop prowess, I'm surprised at your modest looking rig . I expected more . Reddit? Patsy Cline? Really?

What makes an audible difference in vinyl record playback? Things directly on the signal path:

Vinyl record – It's condition is obviously important. Keep it clean of dust and fingerprints. Some pressings are better quality than others.

Pickup cartridge – It is where physical vibrations on the vinyl are transformed into low voltage electronic signals. Most people, myself included, have limited experience with the sound qualities from different cartridges because they are difficult to change.

Phono pre-amp – It amplifies the low voltage from the cartridge, about 2.5-5 mV to about 100-200 mV. It also equalizes the sound to correct for the way it was recorded on vinyl (see RIAA equalization). Again, I have very limited experience with different phono pre-amps.

There are some things not directly on the signal path that are also said to matter, perhaps not as much as the signal path items.

Tonearm – It must be able to accommodate a low-mass hifi pickup cartridge, often called "compliance". I have no direct experience with different tonearms.

Platter – It must rotate smoothly and resist transmitting physical vibrations to the playback. It is said that platters driven by belts do a bit better at this than those with direct drive, but there are plenty of exceptions.

Pretty much all the rest is voodoo.

I want to add two more items that tends to get over looked.... the plinth (or the base ..not bass like I original posted ) and the motor.

Plinth: What you want to have the plinth do is to stop vibrations from transferring to the platter. You also want to isolate motor rumble as well.

Motor: The motor should not rumble and have a steady state with very little variation in rotational speed.

 

[highfigh]

The plinth IS the base.

The LP-60 is less than $100 right? It's probably going to feed back and the cartridge they ship it with isn't very good.

I would look for a nice, used table if I were you. Craig's List, ebay and other places have many that are decent, if not very good. It would be nice to find a Thorens TD-126 for $200, but those days are gone. However, I saw one for $400 and it comes with a cartridge. That would not only be a really good choice, but you won't lose anything if you decide to sell it. Keep it simple- as much as I like my Sony PS-X600's BioTracer tonearm, if that fails, I'll have a nice-looking paperweight.

I just read about a low-priced table this morning and it looks decent, although I don't like the AT cartridge they ship it with (AT-95e). For a few bucks more, the AT-100e or AT-120E would be far better. Ortofon is still making well-received cartridges that aren't terribly expensive, although they have one that retails for $8995, so..... (and no, I didn't omit the decimal).

To keep it in line with the rest of your system, and not hurt your ears, a cheap cartridge won't work. It looks like you have a Yamaha integrated amp- if so, the phono section should work well and if it has a moving coil section, that's good, too. I happen to like MC cartridges, but they do need a lot more gain and can be finicky.

Some of the differences between the AT-95e and the AT-120e that would matter:

The cut of the diamond tip- the AT-120e is more able to reach into the groove, to make contact with more of the vinyl and remain in contact, rather than plowing through the bumps of a metal culvert, like a bowling ball.

Channel separation- the AT-95e is 20dB and the AT-120e is 29dB- still not like dual-mono, but very good for vinyl- it's hard to achieve better when one stylus is picking up both channels by moving in a different direction for each.

Channel balance- within 1dB for the AT-120e and 2dB for the AT-95e.

Frequency response- the AT-120e beats the 95e by 5Hz on the low end and 5KHz on the top (15Hz-25KHz vs 20Hz-20KHz), which would be best for clean albums, but might not be good with noisy material.

The AT-95e sells for less than $40 and it's equivalent to the AT models we sold in the late-70s; not bad for entry level but the rest of your system isn't "entry level".

I went to Goodwill yesterday because I recently started playing vinyl again and want at least one more head shell for my table- it's mini-bayonnet, not the standard size and I should have bought more when they were available, so I was looking for something with the same kind, even if it doesn't work. Found a B&O Beogram RX with a bad needle for $20 and it's in decent condition (although the owner was a smoker, so I had to clean it). Later, I was near another Goodwill, so I stopped in. On the way, I thought it might be nice to be able to inspect my phono styli and as I was heading toward the door, I saw a microscope ($12.99) on a cart with some other things that were going to be put on the racks. It works, its lights (upper and lower) are battery-powered and upon inspection of the Ortofon from the B&O, it's clear that someone tried to play the spun aluminum platter.

I just became an Ortofon dealer, so I'm awaiting word on a replacement.

Goodwill, Salvation Army, yard/estate sales are all great resources for audio equipment.

I have never bought a used album or loaned one to someone else (because I don't want them treated to be like farm animals), but I have heard of people going to stores that deal in used and finding unopened albums.

AT also sells a model that's very similar to the Technics, although I haven't touched one. It's more than many entry level tables, yet it comes with the AT-95e. For the money, I would rather see someone get a manual turntable and put a good cartridge on it.

U-Turn Orbit table, sells for $179-
http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/cartridges/2efd8dfbce43f8ab/

It comes with an AT-91b, which is even cheaper than the 95e. If you look at it as "a throw-in" to be used on the worst albums, it's OK. For even semi-serious listening, don't bother with it.

The tone-arm is very basic and doesn't have a threaded counterweight, so a tracking weight scale will be needed, but they're cheap enough. Get an alignment protractor, too (downloaded, or from an online source)- alignment is very important but it can be done easily enough.

If you want better later, you can use this one as a much better stepping stone than the LP-60.

 

[3db]

The plinth IS the base.

The plinth being the base was already established in the previous post.

 

[highfigh]

The plinth being the base was already established in the previous post.

The one about the monkey?

 

[3db]

The one about the monkey?

Post #7

 

[adwilk]

I really appreciate the useful responses. I had a chance to listen to a better table, although not in the same room. I like the idea of upgrading/changing cartridges, etc. That sounds like a rabbit hole I need to go tumbling down. So, I've been checking out local craigslist, and some thrift/goodwill shops around. I found a DUAL CS 626 Direct Drive table on Craigslist today. Is this even worth looking at any price. I'd be willing to make a reasonable offer if its a device I can upgrade/modify as noted above.

Thoughts?

 

[adwilk]

Ok.. So I got the Dual. It was in great shape, worked well, yada yada. Got some tips on getting it set up. Oh- I've moved on from the LPs the old man had lying around. So if I'm playing a heavier 180g or 200g it works exactly like it should when I set up the arm and tracking force and skating and whatever else is required. When I try to listen to a lighter record like brothers in arms or the shins, I can't get it to stay on the record- especially as it nears the center. I have to set the tracking force really high and it still wants to bounce/skip on a brand new record. At least the cheap AT table I have plays everything without a fuss. Suggestions? Should I get a different TT?

Thanks!

 

[3db]

Something isn't set up correctly. Although the heavier vinyl is a little thicker than the standard pressings, the tone arm should track without any additional adjustments. Have you read the owners manual to see how it should be set up?

 

[adwilk]

Well- I mean I've followed the advice on videos dealing with that ULM specifically and it seems I have it set up properly. I'll try to find a manual online I guess. A technics table showed up on craigslist this morning that I'm going to go pick up in an hour or so. I was hesitant because it has the "P" cartridge, but those seem fairly readily gettable. Should I avoid that one, too? Its only 50 bucks. I really should have just ordered a nice table to begin with.

 

[bridge]

1) Have fun with your current table, keep it for a year

2) Learn from it, experiment with learning how to align the cartridge, change the cartridge, etc. (Make your mistake now while it cheap)

3) You must get / invest in a Spin Clean. I'm still floored at the amount of dirty and junk that comes off my records. Its amazing

 

[highfigh]

Ok.. So I got the Dual. It was in great shape, worked well, yada yada. Got some tips on getting it set up. Oh- I've moved on from the LPs the old man had lying around. So if I'm playing a heavier 180g or 200g it works exactly like it should when I set up the arm and tracking force and skating and whatever else is required. When I try to listen to a lighter record like brothers in arms or the shins, I can't get it to stay on the record- especially as it nears the center. I have to set the tracking force really high and it still wants to bounce/skip on a brand new record. At least the cheap AT table I have plays everything without a fuss. Suggestions? Should I get a different TT?

Thanks!

Raise the arm using the cueing lever and with the power disconnected to the table, move the tonearm toward the center- if you feel more resistance to moving it, something may be binding, or the anti-skate mechanism isn't set up or working properly. Rotate the anti-skate from high to low- does it pass zero? I haven't seen a 626 since it was a current model, but you shouldn't feel any difference when you move the tonearm toward the center.

Is it skipping inward? That would mean it's not doing enough.

What cartridge is on it? If the stylus is worn or dirty, it won't necessarily stay in the groove. Clean it VERY GENTLY and see if it improves. I have read people recommend not using alcohol, but the stylus shouldn't be damaged by that- Audio Technica sells stylus cleaner and it has alcohol, so I doubt they would hang their name on something that will damage other brands of cartridges.

That turntable should track anything, really. The weight of the album shouldn't cause it to mis-track.

Getting to your original questions- you have a lightweight tonearm, so the stylus needs to be higher compliance. The principle is just like the suspension of a car- you don't use stiff springs for a lightweight car and you don't use soft springs for a heavy car because the ride will be terrible. In one case, it will be a very hard ride where you'll feel every little bump/crack and can cause the car to go airborne when it encounters sharp vertical elevation changes, while a heavy car with soft springs will bounce down the road, the wheels will hop and sharp bumps will make the shocks bottom out. It's all about proper tuning.

The compliance is one of the specs listed for most cartridges and it indicates the distance the cantilever will move after a specific amount if force is applied. It used to be expressed in Dynes/Centimeter, but lately, it's expressed as um/mN (micro-meter per milli Newton).

Here's a link that has info about tonearm mass/compliance and other details.

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/tonearmcartridge.html

Cartridges do sound different, from one model or brand to another and from piece to piece, of the same model. They're not totally consistent, but the tolerances of the better ones are tighter.

The Needle Doctor is a decent source and they sell a wide range of brands and models. When I worked for a stereo store, we sold AudioTechnica, Micro-Acoustics, Accutex and a wide variety of replacement styli. I still have an Audio-Technica cartridge and it sounds great, although it should- it was pretty expensive. I also have two Denon cartridges and they sound a bit brighter than the AT, with slightly less bass impact. Some albums need one or the other, but I preferred the first Denon when I got it, based on the equipment I was using at that time. My system is completely different now, other than the turntable and cartridges, so I can't express a direct comparison of the systems because that was 30 years ago.

I recently signed up to sell Ortofon, based on recent and past experience, comments from other users and because I know the importer. I haven't heard the Ortofon 2M Red yet, but I have read many comments that were very positive. It's also high compliance, which would work with your tonearm. It also sells for less than $100 and is a lot of bang for the buck. I see a lot of AT-91e, which I think is below the level of the rest of your system. With your speakers, I think I would avoid an overly-bright cartridge and the 2M Red is neutral-sounding.

Here's a service manual but unfortunately, it's in German. If you read German, you'll have a good reference.

You may need to clean and lube the mechanism- it's common when these become old- the grease becomes hard and will keep things from moving when they shouldn't have any resistance. I hear gun slide oil is a good choice.

 

[highfigh]

Well- I mean I've followed the advice on videos dealing with that ULM specifically and it seems I have it set up properly. I'll try to find a manual online I guess. A technics table showed up on craigslist this morning that I'm going to go pick up in an hour or so. I was hesitant because it has the "P" cartridge, but those seem fairly readily gettable. Should I avoid that one, too? Its only 50 bucks. I really should have just ordered a nice table to begin with.

P-mount cartridges are easily available, but the range of quality isn't as great as the standard mount.

What model is the Technics?

 

[adwilk]

http://springfield.craigslist.org/ele/5020784549.html (SL-Q200)

Its that one. I bought it. It has a purple cartridge of some sort. I'll investigate further when I get home. At least I'll have this one while I sort out the DUAL tracking issues. Worst case I'll sell them both and get a different table all together.

Thanks again for all the great info... its a huge help. So much to learn.

 

[TLS Guy]

Ok.. So I got the Dual. It was in great shape, worked well, yada yada. Got some tips on getting it set up. Oh- I've moved on from the LPs the old man had lying around. So if I'm playing a heavier 180g or 200g it works exactly like it should when I set up the arm and tracking force and skating and whatever else is required. When I try to listen to a lighter record like brothers in arms or the shins, I can't get it to stay on the record- especially as it nears the center. I have to set the tracking force really high and it still wants to bounce/skip on a brand new record. At least the cheap AT table I have plays everything without a fuss. Suggestions? Should I get a different TT?

Thanks!

Your problem is that it is a semiautomatic turntable.

Rule one of turntables, you never by an automatic or semi automatic turntable.

Rule 2, if you buy one, then you either sell it fast or dismantle the automatic or semiautomatic mechanism.

A cartridge/arm that has to drag additional mechanism will never work correctly. There are no exceptions to this rule.

Whenever I get one of these horrors, designed by someone who wandered in from the bicycle industry, I always dismantle these mechanisms and throw the parts in the trash bin.

Even if you are not having the problems you are having, the increase in fidelity is enormous from this mod.

None of these horrors ever sound correct with these mechanisms intact.

That arm is the same as on the turntable I prepared for Afterlife. After I threw away that ghastly mechanism the turntable sounded fine, in fact excellent.

There is a lot of information in an LP, and on most program it comes very close to equaling CD.

However a turntable is a mechanical analog mechanism. Unlike digital players there is highly significant increase in performance as you go up the food chain.

I know a lot will not want to hear this, but European turntables are much superior to Far Eastern ones. I also think that the finest turntables from the hey day of the LP can not be beaten.

For instance a Thorens TD 125 with an SME series 3 arm and a Shure V15 xmr can't be bested.

That arm cartridge combination was matched so compliance, mass and resonance all line up.

Bottom line, any cartridge does not work with any arm, not by a long shot.

The key to excellent LP reproduction is proper choice of turntable, arm and cartridge and obsessional set up.