Accuton vs Scanspeak vs Audio Technology

[JerryLove]

Why am I having GreenMountain time-coherency flashbacks?

Though I think the GM Europas do attempt to address some of the same beaming concerns that seem to be DS's obsession with their discussion of 1st-order crossovers and the use of heavy sound damping on the outside of the speaker (something I'm about to attempt on my WmAx customs to resolve what I think is an edge diffraction problem).

(DS's blog which shows this focus: Serious Audio)

It is interesting to me that many people seem to have their personal windmill at which to tilt. For Chris (WmAx) it was (is?) cabinet resonance and off-axis FR (he was a big fan of dipole HF, which is becoming more popular now). For the GreenMountain fans it is shallow crossovers and phase coherency. For DS it's dispersion patterns at the crossover point for the midrange.

Of course: there are many, many speakers in general use which would not run into this problem. Many of even the least expensive 3-way speakers (infinity Primus 36x) use a 3" midrange driver covering the entire frequency range he's concerned about. Martin Logan, Magipan, Walsh Ohm speakers (which use a single driver with a mechanical crossover); as well as concentric speakers like Tannoy or Kef.

I've owned several of these. I've not noticed the clear superiority that I would expect given the implied severity of the issue.

I'm prone to thinking: there may indeed be an issue with midrange bloom caused by the reality of many speaker designs; but like cabinet resonance (caused by all cabinets) or off axis non-linearity (caused by all non-omni-polar emitters); it is something that can be and is mitigated in design.

As such: while some designs solve the issue intrinsically; they pay for that gain with the creation of other issues they must mitigate.

There is no perfect design; and though there are yet things to learn (such as we've seen with the proliferation of di-polar speakers): there is no one solvable problem which overshadows all others nor one solution which does.

I think it's a claim that is prefacia reasonable; and so worthy of considering what the real trade-offs are before deciding whether to factor or dismiss (look at the work under Toole on phase coherency and its lack of actual import: It was considered, studied, and then a determination was made)

 

[Steve81]

I miss all the fuss about GMA. I remember some guy (mauimusicman) pushing the Europa(!!!) as the greatest thing since sliced bread way back when on another forum. At least the GMA website seems a little better since the last time I checked. Europa!!! Europa!!! Europa!!! is probably forever ingrained in my mind though.

 

[JerryLove]

I miss all the fuss about GMA. I remember some guy (mauimusicman) pushing the Europa(!!!) as the greatest thing since sliced bread way back when on another forum. At least the GMA website seems a little better since the last time I checked. Europa!!! Europa!!! Europa!!! is probably forever ingrained in my mind though.

At the end of one of the runs here on AH I bought a (used) pair of Europas.

There were things about them I really liked: but (without getting back into it) they are not in use because of the sound quality. (there are some aspects from that speaker I am trying to imitate in some of my own modding work though)

I can say that the builder himself was very friendly and the speakers are definitely "neat".

 

[monkish54]

This is an attack:

Try not to be a hypocrite.

I wasn't calling him a **** to disprove his argument. The thread turned into *whatever his handle was* for moderator. People joked about it (because it was a joke as he was a troll) and eventually said he's probably just a bored teenager to which that was my reply. Also, he WAS a troll. He would join threads and call people names and not post anything else, he would intentionally start arguments, and he gave terrible info.

Now you're trying to disprove MY argument by attacking ME. Unfortunately, you're attacking the wrong thing. I never once claimed not to have attacked someone. I claimed one shouldn't attack another to disprove an argument because it is a fallacy.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/site-suggestions-feedback/81581-moderator-emeritus-title.html

You're obviously very confused. Use the search function, read DS-21's posts, focus (read between the lines. He will praise a speaker but then dump on it all in the same paragraph) and be enlightened. Until then, ta ta.

Nuance, dude...Are you really THIS offended that I could possible think you did something wrong? Seriously? Nuance, I'm a 19 year old kid behind a computer screen, don't take it so personally. I don't want to debate with you for 3 days. If you don't wanna admit that it was an improper way to deal with the situation--then don't. Let's not bicker for hours on end about it.

 

[fuzz092888]

I wasn't calling him a **** to disprove his argument. The thread turned into *whatever his handle was* for moderator. People joked about it (because it was a joke as he was a troll) and eventually said he's probably just a bored teenager to which that was my reply. Also, he WAS a troll. He would join threads and call people names and not post anything else, he would intentionally start arguments, and he gave terrible info.

Now you're trying to disprove MY argument by attacking ME. Unfortunately, you're attacking the wrong thing. I never once claimed not to have attacked someone. I claimed one shouldn't attack another to disprove an argument because it is a fallacy.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/site-suggestions-feedback/81581-moderator-emeritus-title.html

Oh boy, that guy. He was/is some piece of work

 

[Nuance AH]

I wasn't calling him a **** to disprove his argument. The thread turned into *whatever his handle was* for moderator. People joked about it (because it was a joke as he was a troll) and eventually said he's probably just a bored teenager to which that was my reply. Also, he WAS a troll. He would join threads and call people names and not post anything else, he would intentionally start arguments, and he gave terrible info.

Now you're trying to disprove MY argument by attacking ME. Unfortunately, you're attacking the wrong thing. I never once claimed not to have attacked someone. I claimed one shouldn't attack another to disprove an argument because it is a fallacy.

Your favorite word is "attack" this week, huh? I'm debating with you, not attacking you. You started this and I am simply responding. But it's an "attack" when I respond, not an "argument" eh?

Nuance, dude...Are you really THIS offended that I could possible think you did something wrong? Seriously? Nuance, I'm a 19 year old kid behind a computer screen, don't take it so personally. I don't want to debate with you for 3 days. If you don't wanna admit that it was an improper way to deal with the situation--then don't. Let's not bicker for hours on end about it.

I am not a fan of people who tell someone not to do one thing but also do the same themselves, but to each their own. Anyway, you'll notice I never said that my original statement was the "proper" way to handle things. In fact, in that original statement I said I realize I will be called out as slinging mud, but someone had to call it like it is (stand up to DS-21's false statements and all his past bullying). Read Swerd's comments, and read DS-21's posts here and on AVS. I'm not the only one who has seen this. You're the one who went on the offensive toward me; I am just responding. You can use the word attack all you want, but it isn't. I have no beef with you, but I do have the right to respond to your "argument," or what you'd call "an attack."

Feel free to discuss this further via PM if you wish. You're taking the thread off topic just as much as I, and we need to stop.

 

[monkish54]

Your favorite word is "attack" this week, huh? I'm debating with you, not attacking you. You started this and I am simply responding. But it's an "attack" when I respond, not an "argument" eh?

Our disagreement is just that. A disagreement. You taking a post out of context to prove that I'm a hypocrite and therefore my argument has no merit, is attacking.

I am not a fan of people who tell someone not to do one thing but also do the same themselves

But again, that's not even close to what I did.

you'll notice I never said that my original statement was the "proper" way to handle things.

The simple act of posting it illustrates that you felt that was the best course of action. One wouldn't intentionally take the wrong course of action.

Anyway, I can agree that this is off-topic and has been going on too long. I decree that this argument is over. xD

If you feel like rebutting, again, that is only fair. I will use my self control to refrain from replying.

 

[Nuance AH]

O

If you feel like rebutting, again, that is only fair. I will use my self control to refrain from replying.

Doo doo head! LOL - refrain from that attack. Just kidding man - it's all good. We'll agree to disagree on everything you said in your post above mine.

 

[Adam]

One wouldn't intentionally take the wrong course of action.

Challenge accepted.

 

[Adam]

Doo doo head! LOL - refrain from that attack.

Btw, my lawyer might be contacting you if I can't clean the combination of Diet Coke and spit off of my laptop...

 

[JerryLove]

Btw, my lawyer might be contacting you if I can't clean the combination of Diet Coke and spit off of my laptop...

I suspect that spitting soda all over yourself was the "wrong course of action"

 

[Irvrobinson]

Btw, my lawyer might be contacting you if I can't clean the combination of Diet Coke and spit off of my laptop...

The only serious conclusion I've drawn from this thread is that you are very easily entertained.

 

[ratso]

I suspect speakers would be much easier to build if there was only one design that didn't suck. be easier to shop for them too.

 

[templemaners]

To try and get this thread back on track a little bit (we're off the road, deep in the woods and may have crossed state lines at this point ), I will agree with one point that DS-21 made: You probably want bigger and/or higher efficiency midwoofers to help keep up with a pair of LMS 5400 Ultras, especially if you're giving them plenty of power (1500w+ each). I'm highly doubtful that one (two might not be that much better) 7" midwoofers could keep up with a pair of 18" subs if you really start pushing hard. In other words, you'll likely run out of speaker before you run out of sub.

I think you either need to scale back your subs (blasphemous talk IMO ) or up the speakers from a ribbon/7" midwoofer bookshelf to something that has a better chance of keeping up.

 

[Alex2507]

I will agree with one point that DS-21 made:

This makes you a bad person too. Go stand in the corner.

 

[monkish54]

This makes you a bad person too. Go stand in the corner.

HAHAHAH

You guys are too funny!

 

[PENG]

Why am I having GreenMountain time-coherency flashbacks?

Though I think the GM Europas do attempt to address some of the same beaming concerns that seem to be DS's obsession with their discussion of 1st-order crossovers and the use of heavy sound damping on the outside of the speaker (something I'm about to attempt on my WmAx customs to resolve what I think is an edge diffraction problem).

(DS's blog which shows this focus: Serious Audio)

It is interesting to me that many people seem to have their personal windmill at which to tilt. For Chris (WmAx) it was (is?) cabinet resonance and off-axis FR (he was a big fan of dipole HF, which is becoming more popular now). For the GreenMountain fans it is shallow crossovers and phase coherency. For DS it's dispersion patterns at the crossover point for the midrange.

Of course: there are many, many speakers in general use which would not run into this problem. Many of even the least expensive 3-way speakers (infinity Primus 36x) use a 3" midrange driver covering the entire frequency range he's concerned about. Martin Logan, Magipan, Walsh Ohm speakers (which use a single driver with a mechanical crossover); as well as concentric speakers like Tannoy or Kef.

I've owned several of these. I've not noticed the clear superiority that I would expect given the implied severity of the issue.

I'm prone to thinking: there may indeed be an issue with midrange bloom caused by the reality of many speaker designs; but like cabinet resonance (caused by all cabinets) or off axis non-linearity (caused by all non-omni-polar emitters); it is something that can be and is mitigated in design.

As such: while some designs solve the issue intrinsically; they pay for that gain with the creation of other issues they must mitigate.

There is no perfect design; and though there are yet things to learn (such as we've seen with the proliferation of di-polar speakers): there is no one solvable problem which overshadows all others nor one solution which does.

I think it's a claim that is prefacia reasonable; and so worthy of considering what the real trade-offs are before deciding whether to factor or dismiss (look at the work under Toole on phase coherency and its lack of actual import: It was considered, studied, and then a determination was made)

I would add "adolization" to the mix, i.e. the Dr. this Dr. that, Andrew Jones...etc.etc.....as well as some specific design approach etc.etc.... Me too, I admire Fouier, Laplace, and a few other scientist/mathematians who contributed to the foundation of technologies that provided us audiophiles and audioholics great enjoyments, but I resist and refuse to think if XYZ did that it must be good and condition myself and convince others that they are good and that others who don't do the same are not so good.

 

[PENG]

DS mentioned several times that the Philharmonic speakers have proven to be very good - the on-axis and 60 degrees horizontal off-axis look very good.

I think he is just very opinionated, which rubs a lot of folks the wrong way.

I don't see him as a troll here or on AVS.

But this is off topics. This thread is not about DS personally.

DS and TLS Guy have opinions about ribbons that may differ from some folks. They stated their reasons for not preferring ribbons. Dennis, Swerd, and others have given rebuttals. It's a discussion/ debate. It will most likely be the case of agreeing to disagree.

Agree, but if he tried not to talk like he's the authority so often, his posts might have been more enjoyable. I doubt that would change though because last time I mentioned something like in general term, he thought I was talking about him. People do talk in similar fashion, but a) shouldn’t irritate people if done on topics they have the facts to back up, b) not done in ways that implied others are idiots. I have no doubt he has a good depth of knowledge and experience to offer valuable opinions but it would be nice if he realizes opinions are quite different than facts and that there are gray areas.

 

[PENG]

Say what you will about AJ, he knows what he is talking about. He might be an assclown on the forums, but he doesn't let audiophools get away with any rubbish, and for that I respect him greatly.

He could have certainly been a little nicer, but I as far as I was concerned, I didn't care what his demeanor was. I knew I could learn from him, and that's what I am here to do.

If I remember correctly, you can debate AJ all day long and he would stick to facts and figures, lots of graphs too. Oh, with those graphs he almost convinced me the 802D's were bad but my listening experience kept telling me otherwise.

 

[PENG]

Which... on paper is less room-sensitive than the r900 in the upper midrange...............despite other design issues I've mentioned in the past.

I found the R900 sounding amazingly (in two totally different rooms) similar to the 1028 Be in the upper midrange. You are going to tell me "I could have told you that..........." right? Anyway I came back from live classical (like it non amplified) concert last night, immediately put on the Grieg Piano concerto in A minor and can now confirm that they are the right speakers for me. Did the same with the Focal this morning, same feeling so like ADTG said, graphs are important but...............