A wakeup call for audio consumers?

[highfigh]

The challenge is that the PC market is a tough economic act to follow. Intel created the PC market as we think of it now, by driving the creation of the PCI and PCIe specifications, which included form factor specifications for the cards, including connectors, design rules, power specs, etc. And at their peak, PC sales were well over 300 million units per year, and they're still in the ~280M range. It doesn't seem like there's an Intel-equivalent company in the AV industry to virtually force standards on the rest of the industry.

Other than HDMI and that's a POS.

 

[fuzz092888]

The challenge is that the PC market is a tough economic act to follow. Intel created the PC market as we think of it now, by driving the creation of the PCI and PCIe specifications, which included form factor specifications for the cards, including connectors, design rules, power specs, etc. And at their peak, PC sales were well over 300 million units per year, and they're still in the ~280M range. It doesn't seem like there's an Intel-equivalent company in the AV industry to virtually force standards on the rest of the industry.

Totally unrelated to the topic at hand, but @Irvrobinson that signature is hilarious

 

[Irvrobinson]

Totally unrelated to the topic at hand, but @Irvrobinson that signature is hilarious

In the 15 years I've been a member on these forums, I don't remember ever having a signature. I couldn't think of anything witty enough or informative enough to say. GrimSurfer finally plugged that hole. Plus, I've done him a favor. Now his warning about me (and Jerry) is visible on the ~4900 posts I've made over the years; more visibility than he could hope to achieve so quickly.

 

[lovinthehd]

While having ideal modular consumer electronics/speakers to fit a few posters needs here is a nice idea, who's going to buy it to any great extent? Look at all the nonsense marketing that props up 2ch world and how it's furthering even more nonsense than having an 11.4.6 setup in a typical living room....

 

[ryanosaur]

In the 15 years I've been a member on these forums, I don't remember ever having a signature. I couldn't think of anything witty enough or informative enough to say. GrimSurfer finally plugged that hole. Plus, I've done him a favor. Now his warning about me (and Jerry) is visible on the ~4900 posts I've made over the years; more visibility than he could hope to achieve so quickly.

Grim left? *sighs
Oh well.
*shrugs

 

[Swerd]

Grim left? *sighs
Oh well.
*shrugs

Some cause happiness wherever they go. Others, whenever they go – Oscar Wilde

 

[shadyJ]

Something to consider here is that traditional home audio products such as AVRs and speakers are a shrinking market. It sucks, but year after year have seen reduced sales. Audio as a whole is not a shrinking market, but the stuff that we all have a passion for in here, good-sized speakers, big amps, sophisticated processors, etc., is not a growth market. I don't think it is dying, but I do think it will decline for a little while. One reason is that more people are living in urban environments, and not many people can really use a big hi-fi system in an apartment. I am sure other reasons include younger professionals getting killed by student loans and healthcare costs, and so on. Not as much expendable income.

Something else contributing to this is the increased complexity of sound systems- and its all for nearly nothing. look at all the acronyms that describe the feature set of any AVR made in the last 20 years, its alphabet soup, and not much of it is all that useful. How much better is a 7.1 system over a 5.1? its not huge. How much better is a 9.1 system or a 5.1.4 system over a 7.1? Not huge. 11 channels? 13? where do all these speakers go? And room equalization, which in many cases can do more harm than good? Like TLSguy says, a good, simple two-channel system is way better than complex 13 channel system made from mediocre speakers. But AVR manufacturers are pushing their cheap AVRs into trying to tackle more channels, thereby continually sacrificing quality for ever greater quantity. All these extra channels may have done more harm than good to the market as a whole by being intimidating and off-putting. And I bet that in an A/B comparison, most people would end up preferring the sound of a really good two channel system over a middling 20 channel system.

One more thing, I think its presumptuous to say how Outlaw Audio falls in this. All we have is one bad customer experience to go on here, and we only have one side of the story at that. We are not privy to their internal financials. There is an awful lot of conjecture in based on relatively little information. I wouldn't use one customer experience story as a barometer for how well an entire company is doing let alone how well a whole industry is doing.

 

[ryanosaur]

Some cause happiness wherever they go. Others, whenever they go – Oscar Wilde

Well said, Swerd!

 

[ryanosaur]

Something to consider here is that traditional home audio products such as AVRs and speakers are a shrinking market. It sucks, but year after year have seen reduced sales. Audio as a whole is not a shrinking market, but the stuff that we all have a passion for in here, good-sized speakers, big amps, sophisticated processors, etc., is not a growth market. I don't think it is dying, but I do think it will decline for a little while. One reason is that more people are living in urban environments, and not many people can really use a big hi-fi system in an apartment. I am sure other reasons include younger professionals getting killed by student loans and healthcare costs, and so on. Not as much expendable income.

Something else contributing to this is the increased complexity of sound systems- and its all for nearly nothing. look at all the acronyms that describe the feature set of any AVR made in the last 20 years, its alphabet soup, and not much of it is all that useful. How much better is a 7.1 system over a 5.1? its not huge. How much better is a 9.1 system or a 5.1.4 system over a 7.1? Not huge. 11 channels? 13? where do all these speakers go? And room equalization, which in many cases can do more harm than good? Like TLSguy says, a good, simple two-channel system is way better than complex 13 channel system made from mediocre speakers. But AVR manufacturers are pushing their cheap AVRs into trying to tackle more channels, thereby continually sacrificing quality for ever greater quantity. All these extra channels may have done more harm than good to the market as a whole by being intimidating and off-putting. And I bet that in an A/B comparison, most people would end up preferring the sound of a really good two channel system over a middling 20 channel system.

One more thing, I think its presumptuous to say how Outlaw Audio falls in this. All we have is one bad customer experience to go on here, and we only have one side of the story at that. We are not privy to their internal financials. There is an awful lot of conjecture in based on relatively little information. I wouldn't use one customer experience story as a barometer for how well an entire company is doing let alone how well a whole industry is doing.

Asked a year ago if I ever thought I'd be listening to 2.2 audio I'd have laughed. But then again with that old Onkyo HTIB, it was Multichannel Stereo or bust for any audio other than a movie!
Now, I rarely use the other channels and am rethinking my plans for Atmos a little. 7.2.2 or 5.2.4... Hard to decide and it will require some experimentation to make certain why those rears are important to me and if it still holds any validity.
As rad as it would be to get that XMC-1 from Emo... fully tricked out with ?expansion modules? and running what?, 25 or 28 total channels?!?!!???!?
*Facepalm; epic.
My limited exposure to 5.1 channel audio is good so far, and I am working an tripling my meager catalog soon. I think there is potential here, and I just found some exciting offerings of orchestral works that might cause me to indulge soon, too.
Regardless, from a need and want perspective... for a change... I'm wanting AND needing less. Just give me solid analog and digital processing capablities, and 5 channels plus subs to work with and I'd be stoked.

What if the processing for Atmos (Auros, Imax, etc) fell to something like an add-on Pre-Pro capable of managing 8 channels of atmos? The main players could offer their own takes on base AVRs and Pre-pros for the bed layer only, consolidating processing power and Amp stage power more effectively where it counts.

Pipe dreams. But why not dream a little.

BTW, I agree whole-heartedly with Shady on the assertion that the Outlaw thread is a little harsh and judgemental. Though even if egged on, it is wrong for a company to do what is reported, we don't know what we don't know. I'll stop there.

Cheers, all!
R

 

[Irvrobinson]

One more thing, I think its presumptuous to say how Outlaw Audio falls in this. All we have is one bad customer experience to go on here, and we only have one side of the story at that. We are not privy to their internal financials. There is an awful lot of conjecture in based on relatively little information. I wouldn't use one customer experience story as a barometer for how well an entire company is doing let alone how well a whole industry is doing.

I agree in principle with this point, but what the OP described in that thread was unacceptable support quality, even filtering out some of the emotion on both sides. Outlaw may still be a successful company, and buying amplifiers or speakers from them may be practical because they are simpler designs than pro-pros. But I'm still leery of ordering a 976 pre-pro from them until we get a response.

 

[TLS Guy]

Something to consider here is that traditional home audio products such as AVRs and speakers are a shrinking market. It sucks, but year after year have seen reduced sales. Audio as a whole is not a shrinking market, but the stuff that we all have a passion for in here, good-sized speakers, big amps, sophisticated processors, etc., is not a growth market. I don't think it is dying, but I do think it will decline for a little while. One reason is that more people are living in urban environments, and not many people can really use a big hi-fi system in an apartment. I am sure other reasons include younger professionals getting killed by student loans and healthcare costs, and so on. Not as much expendable income.

Something else contributing to this is the increased complexity of sound systems- and its all for nearly nothing. look at all the acronyms that describe the feature set of any AVR made in the last 20 years, its alphabet soup, and not much of it is all that useful. How much better is a 7.1 system over a 5.1? its not huge. How much better is a 9.1 system or a 5.1.4 system over a 7.1? Not huge. 11 channels? 13? where do all these speakers go? And room equalization, which in many cases can do more harm than good? Like TLSguy says, a good, simple two-channel system is way better than complex 13 channel system made from mediocre speakers. But AVR manufacturers are pushing their cheap AVRs into trying to tackle more channels, thereby continually sacrificing quality for ever greater quantity. All these extra channels may have done more harm than good to the market as a whole by being intimidating and off-putting. And I bet that in an A/B comparison, most people would end up preferring the sound of a really good two channel system over a middling 20 channel system.

One more thing, I think its presumptuous to say how Outlaw Audio falls in this. All we have is one bad customer experience to go on here, and we only have one side of the story at that. We are not privy to their internal financials. There is an awful lot of conjecture in based on relatively little information. I wouldn't use one customer experience story as a barometer for how well an entire company is doing let alone how well a whole industry is doing.

I think we have both said the same thing. City councils are now pushing high density, which will greatly exacerbate the situation.
There are no simple high quality two channel AV system. That is a disgrace, and a huge gap in the market. It is what most of our friends want. It is virtually impossible to put a really neat, unobtrusive and good 2 channel AV system together without a ton of workarounds. In fact those types of systems should be the market leader. For music and theater lovers who want good music and TV/cinema, a sound bar does not cut it.

 

[highfigh]

I think we have both said the same thing. City councils are now pushing high density, which will greatly exacerbate the situation.
There are no simple high quality two channel AV system. That is a disgrace, and a huge gap in the market. It is what most of our friends want. It is virtually impossible to put a really neat, unobtrusive and good 2 channel AV system together without a ton of workarounds. In fact those types of systems should be the market leader. For music and theater lovers who want good music and TV/cinema, a sound bar does not cut it.

Think about who the industry is targeting.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Irv, I just want to say that over time your contributions on this forum have been invaluable to all. And you too Jerry. Please take this insulting former member with a grain of salt. His experience and knowledge does not make up for his multiple personality disorders.

 

[2channel lover]

I definitely don't like channel-number war (up to 13Ch or more now).

I'm glad some giant companies like Yamaha have NOT gone that route. And I hope they never will because I think more Ch is WORSE because it increases complexity and heat in the AVP or AVR, which is BAD.

But I'm sure there are a few people (including Gene) who wouldn't mind 13Ch in the Yamaha.

I look at the dolby and other movie audio experts and home audio industry and imo it's almost like the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.

The on one hand the home movie streaming industry (Netflix, Amazon, etc.) are very content with 5.1 audio, and very slowly incorporating Dolby Atmos. Home movie streaming is growing at such a pace that some home audio manufacturers are starting to pull out of the hardware market.

On the other hand, you have larger home electronics companies that are expanding processing and playback of audio channels.

 

[Kvn_Walker]

I look at the dolby and other movie audio experts and home audio industry and imo it's almost like the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.

The on one hand the home movie streaming industry (Netflix, Amazon, etc.) are very content with 5.1 audio, and very slowly incorporating Dolby Atmos. Home movie streaming is growing at such a pace that some home audio manufacturers are starting to pull out of the hardware market.

On the other hand, you have larger home electronics companies that are expanding processing and playback of audio channels.

Yup, that's my same line of thinking. DVD still has over 50% of the market, Blu-Ray players (if not discs) are on the decline, streaming is overtaking physical media, and most of it is 5.1. Receivers are getting more complex while the sources to feed that complexity are stagnant at best.

 

[highfigh]

Yup, that's my same line of thinking. DVD still has over 50% of the market, Blu-Ray players (if not discs) are on the decline, streaming is overtaking physical media, and most of it is 5.1. Receivers are getting more complex while the sources to feed that complexity are stagnant at best.

Think about what is actually happening when the signal comes from a disc vs streaming. How many pieces of equipment are between the streaming source and the destination (your TV). Then, add the miles of cabling, switch points, hubs, repeaters, etc. To make it worse, if the end user has a broadband provider, the cabling is shared by everyone in the area, so physical issues can slow and degrade the signal.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The home movie streaming industry are very content with 5.1 audio, and very slowly incorporating Dolby Atmos...On the other hand, you have larger home electronics companies that are expanding processing of audio channels.

If these 13Ch+ AVPs and AVRs don't sell enough, I don't foresee manufacturers continuing to produce them. Then we'll go back to 9-11Ch (5.1.4 - 7.1.4).

My room is 26' x 22' x 14', and I'm content with 5.1.4.

 

[snakeeyes]

I believe people will want content for the 4K TVs they are buying, so UHD discs will survive.

It would be strange if dvd and UHD survived and Blu-ray went away before dvd

 

[tmurnin]

I wonder if we might see a return to some of the focus on quality speakers and sound if wireless technology were viable enough to support standard passive speakers. If we look at what Sonos has done enabling the overall whole-home audio market with what is a pretty good quality product at a fairly premium price, that tells me there is still a market for good audio. However, the vast majority of consumers don't want to run cable through walls, deal with the connections, etc., but they do want good sound that is easy to set up and use. If Sonos (or someone similar) can somehow enable real wireless technology that is brand agnostic and supports a common user experience (this could be an opportunity for Logitech with their Harmony division as well), I can see a real path for growth here. However, if the industry continues to focus on feature bloat rather than user acceptance/experience, we'll just keep heading down the same road.

 

[2channel lover]

I believe people will want content for the 4K TVs they are buying, so UHD discs will survive.

It would be strange if dvd and UHD survived and Blu-ray went away before dvd

I think now that 4k TVs are coming down in price, people at the lower end of the price scale might be curious about 4k content when they 1st buy the set, but it (curiosity) wanes fairly quickly I think. I sought out 4k content for about a month after I bought the 1st of the two 4k TVs we own. After that the novelty of it was gone.

Now, if I paid $4,-6K for an OLED, I think I would be more curious about seeing it display 4k content and willing to invest a lot more into content.