A/V Business Related Questions....

[highfigh]

"what's so damned hard about customer service, complete product knowledge, and commitment to excellence?".

To give good customer service, a person, or company, has to want to provide it. It has to realize that happy customers will often be repeat customers and unhappy customers will drive business away from that store or company.

Once people see lots of money, they become very interested in maintaining the actions that they think got the money to flow their way. They start looking for ways to cut costs and see the same revenue. If the cost savings results in some revenue loss, as long as they don't lose as much as they saved, they think it's OK. One place they think they see a saving is in training. If they get the idea that their best-trained people aren't the top sellers, that's justification for cutting it back, or out. It's not long before they have no trained staff and they need to reduce their goods to commodity status. That hurts the whole industry.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I'm in the other thread as well, but with this statement posted in this thread perhaps you elaborate on this - in comparison to every other retail sales business - what is so different about consumer electronics?

How is it completely different than say - home improvement contracting, automotive customization & performance tuning, or retail computer sales and consulting... I say that simply because I've either worked with, done extensive business with, or run my own business for years as - all 3 of these.

In some ways it is not, but in other ways it can be tremendously different. One of the biggies is that with CE you have ample online resources for research. A HUGE headache that I find, even though I work for a $30,000,000 a year company, is that the prices many people may find online is often CHEAPER than our cost. Think about that! I can't compete with online pricing, almost nobody can. The big box stores are drawing on BILLIONS in sales to drive prices down, to compete against online sellers marking things up perhaps just a few percentage points.

I can't buy lumber online and save cash. I can buy a PC online and save some cash, but PCs exclusive shops are more rare than they were in the 90's for sure as they've run into the same thing I think. Heck, dead on the same I would say. Home improvement contracting is more time and labor based for some, and the bigger places just set fixed fees. I'm not sure that is different either. Auto shops? Heck, I don't know. I would say that they run a lot of stuff by convenience. They charge $10 for oil that costs them $1 then $20 for labor to change it out. It's a convenience thing.

One thing I can say is that when someone spends $2,000 on a projector they often expect it to be INSTALLED for free! Even though the profit from that projector is often less than $100. No, I'm not kidding. When online pricing is readily available, it is the labor which must hold true to make a profit. But, people don't want to pay $60 or $80 (or more) for an hour of skilled A/V labor on a luxury item.

So, that may be the crux of it. Home improvement is for the house overall. Car repairs are a requirement. Gotta have a GOOD PC running in the house. But, the luxury items perhaps are all competing on the same type of grounds and nobody wants to pay the rates which are appropriate to people who DO know their business.

Is there something fundamentally different about consumer electronics that makes the 'used car salesmen' crawl out of the woodwork? Or is there something fundamentally different about the distribution networks, dealer incentives, employee overhead, certification & licensing, etc.? I guess a better way of putting this in a succinct manner: "what's so damned hard about customer service, complete product knowledge, and commitment to excellence?".

Have you ever met your AVERAGE car mechanic? I've had a few friends that have been to Lincoln Tech and other trade educators. The guys can barely add, they get confused on which way to turn a wrench for the first year. They learn a trade, and it sticks with them for the rest of their life. Hanging drywall... It's not a skill, it's an art, and if you get good at it, you could have a job for life. But, almost anyone can eventually learn it.

Most GOOD A/V guys don't just know how audio works. They know how electrical signals down a wire can degrade over distance. They know that if a customer is interested in streaming video over their network, they may need to implement a higher bandwidth networking system so their A/V can do what is being required. They know what FLAC, WMA, WAV, and MP3 are and what differences may be run into. (let's not forget WMV, MP4, MKV, and ISO!)

They know how much power different pieces of equipment may draw so that proper circuits can be in place when necessary.

They know how to hang a TV. A TV on drywall, stone, masonry, commercial settings, with drop ceilings, with drywall... you name it.

This is where I can't speak NEARLY as much to the other trades, but A/V is a moving target like nothing I've ever heard of. It's truly impossible to be good at everything, and there is more than a ton of information available on products. Customers are CONSTANTLY hitting me with products I've never heard of, and I find myself buying things because I want to try them out (much to my wife's joy ).

So, you almost always end up with a customer who has read something, somewhere, about something new... that you know NOTHING about! I'm sure this happens in other areas, but after dealing with A/V I found that framing my basement was a joke. I wish I had NOT hired an electrician because I know I would've done a much better and cleaner installation than he did. Even FINDING an HVAC guy to add new vents was a pain. And the plumber was lousy. Heck, maybe the average A/V guy is identical to the average other trade.

The difference is often that a can of paint to spray your car some custom color is not typically $2,500 and you don't expect him to paint it for free.

I'm just confused as how the general concensus of so many people - many of whom own and operate their own businesses with distribution agreements, franchise limitations, supply chains, etc... could be so completely mistaken about why it is that CE retail is so full of issues, while other retail areas are much more service-oriented and streamlined? I guarantee that if any customers walking into a jewelry store were approached in the way they are in a CE store... that place would have no customers in less than two months.

I've always wondered why people feel like something is crazy about CE stores. I mean, WE aren't tourists in A/V. WE are the exception. I think most people (non-A/V) walk into an A/V store and appreciate the help. They are clueless which makes the sales guys helpful... Perhaps dangerous, but to that consumer, they are helpful. But, if you walk into a jewelry store, they aren't going to sell you a $120 cable AND a warranty. Just the warranty. And they likely have solid markup on that item to begin with to make it worth their time.

There are so many ways which A/V can compare directly to other retailers, but I sure don't want to go into Best Buy and tell them that I need their help with a distributed A/V system for my home with integrated home automation. Yet, that is EXACTLY what happens every day.

I do find that because there is so little margin on the big ticket items that many times the sales guys actually have to SELL! That's the used car salesman mentality. You came in with $500, but to make any money, the guy has to sell $700 worth of stuff.

I see this over at the Projector Central forums all the time. Someone sees a price on a bottom of the line business projector, then think they can build a theater for right around that price. No thought to the mount, or surround system, or the screen, or anything else... or even if that projector is even appropriate. They have set their budget AHEAD of finding out if their budget is even appropriate.

So, they then end up spending $300 or $3,000 more than they intended and it leaves a bad taste in their mouth, even though, they quite possibly ended up with exactly the quality and system they originally intended to get.

I'm afraid I see an awful lot of that in this industry.

Please don't misconstrue this as a belief that YOU are inherently dishonest because you run a business in this industry - I'm merely stating my opinion and experience as both a business owner and as a consumer - in what I believed at least were similar areas.

It's a toss up and consumers need to be aware (though rarely are) that most stores are NOT there to support them. But, that custom installation has a fee that is, and should be in line with the service they are going to get.

I don't do a lot of business with my own company, which I run part time, but my day job (commercial A/V) is busy. The growth is almost ENTIRELY through past work and word of mouth. Millions of dollars of growth this way.

Meanwhile I've gotten out of two sinking ships before they went under because they couldn't match up their actual expertise and satisfaction to their premium pricing. Still, finding customers who are happy to pay $70 an hour and actually get exactly what they want, is definitely tough for me.

Of course, I stink at marketing, so maybe I need more of that.

 

[GranteedEV]

so what are A/V installers' thoughts on 20a circuits.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I just thought of perhaps a good analogy that I feel isn't (here at least) but should be mirrored in CE:

My previous car was a Nissan 350Z - since the GTR was not yet available, at the time it was the most expensive car Nissan sold. When I went to purchase it the sales staff was rude, pushy, and seemed put off by the fact that I wasn't adding on all sorts of stuff and using their (horrible) in-house lending. So I walked out and went across the street and bought one used with only 5K miles on it. No matter how many ludicrously over-priced services I purchased from them - it was always a hassle - in fact, it took me over 2 years to get warranty service on a couple of things (to their credit, the did eventually capitulate - but I had to bring in the TSB's and escalate things to the regional rep first.). <--- THIS IS WHAT I SEE IN PRETTY MUCH ALL CE BUSINESSES.

A year ago I traded it in on a Lexus IS350 - which is next to the cheapest thing Lexus sells, and since mine was used and I got an incredible deal on it - they didn't make much of anything on me (but they made plenty on the previous owner...LOL!). When I go in for an oil change there - it's like night and day. Someone get's me coffee, the service manager is in no hurry, does not try to make any upsells - but is extremely attentive in providing options and complete pricing of product to achieve the desired result. <--- THIS IS WHAT I FEEL I SHOULD SEE IN PRETTY MUCH ALL CE BUSINESSES.

I see both of these things regularly from CE. But this isn't a unified group like Lexus. Ran into the same differences myself when we bought our Acura (great) vs. buying our Odyssey (lousy). Wish I could say I see more store owners and managers who care enough to offer that better level of service and take ownership of their staff and presentation.

ME: I'm looking to reduce body-roll in cornering while maintaining a fairly standard ride-height.
SERVICE MGR: Well, let me see what we can do - what is your target budget?
ME: Right now, I could go up to about $4K if necessary - top end.
SERVICE MGR: I don't think you'll need nearly that much if you're willing to go aftermarket on a couple of things... If we add the F-Sport control arms and the chassis bracing - that will be about $1200 parts and labor - I think you'll have 70% of what you're looking for. If you're willing to so a little shopping around you can find some good coilovers from the following manufacturers for probably less than $1500 for the set. If you decided you'd like us to do the install, we can schedule it to coincide with the braces and you'll only need to pay for 2 hours labor on it. Or you can check with another installer to see if it's better. But I think you might find that the bracing alone with the factory suspension will be very, very good - and might keep you happy until you're ready to pull the trigger on an IS-F even!
ME: I LOVE YOU!

I think that hits the point I made in the last bit dead on. You have set a budget, but if you are way over, then people can be nice... and I simply can NOT say how many times I constantly hear: "I have no budget and I want a nice system."

Cripes! How many times have you read that on these very forums?

How many times HERE have you read about people who have bought the wrong thing and then are complaining about it like someone else forced them to buy it?

I tell people that it's about $10,000 for a turnkey, INSTALLED, front projection system (with fixed screen, 1080p, 5.1, killer remote) and they think it is to much. It takes at LEAST 40 hours of labor to install such a system (retro) with minimal holes as possible, and they balk. Their budget? $2,500. On the Big Box side, I think you have to stop caring. If someone has $200, you help them spend it all. Buy this POS $140 receiver, and $60 in cables, and go away.

I've honestly told people on forums that they should just NOT spend their money. They don't have the budget for what they want to do if they want to do it properly.

PEOPLE DO NOT CARE! They want their cruddy system even if it isn't what they asked for. They just want a blessing. Their choice. But, I don't have to give them that blessing when I don't agree with it.

Yet, when I stand in front of a customer, and a system comes to $250,000 and they budgeted $150,000 (not kidding!) it becomes a much larger pain in the neck to get them to understand what they won't be getting if I have to meet their budgetary goals when looking at their requirements list.

Since (for my day job) I'm an engineer, this tends to be pretty meat and potatoes. But, it leaves a very BITTER taste in my mouth when budgets are set ahead of getting a sales quote or even a quick estimate. And it happens all the time. I think consumers are conditioned towards cheap, and CEMs drive consumers that way because of the constantly falling price of electronics.

When there are $150 subwoofers, why should anyone spend $1,000... or $3,000 on a QUALITY subwoofer the exact same size? They sure aren't going to come here first to find out why.

 

[BMXTRIX]

so what are A/V installers' thoughts on 20a circuits.

ALL FOR IT!!!

1920 watts of accepted delivery power. I would bet that you could ask every employee of Best Buy that and they would have NO CLUE what a 20amp circuit was rated to draw.
1440 watts for 15 amp circuits, typically on 14 gauge wire (white Romex) and 1920 watts for 20 amp circuits, typically on 12 gauge wire (yellow Romex).

I have a single 20 amp circuit running my equipment rack and I haven't popped the circuit yet, but at some point I'm pretty darn sure that I will.

 

[highfigh]

so what are A/V installers' thoughts on 20a circuits.

If the potential exists (no pun intended) for the equipment to come close to drawing the current that would max out the 15A circuit, it should be upgraded to 20A. If they will never have more than a receiver and a couple of sources, there's not much point. If the project includes some wiring to the area anyway and it's possible that amplifiers will be added later, I would have a 20A circuit installed.

I had an electrician ask if I wanted the TV power leg run from the J-box that's in the equipment cabinet. That's the first time anyone has asked this and they usually look at me like a dog watching TV when I ask for it.

 

[digicidal]

BMXTRIX, you raise some very good points and have clarified a great deal. And yes, you are correct that in PC sales it's a very similar climate - perhaps even moreso as it seems everyone has a '12yr old nephew' that is as 'competent with the computers thing' as someone with 20+ years experience.

(And that's part of the reason why I don't even do sales anymore - just tell them what they need and send-em to 'da egg' to order it all themselves).

I think the problem comes with the viscious cycle that you (and highfigh, and I.T.I) mentioned a couple of different ways. It's something that is part of human nature - but I guess because I as a provider of services personally try to always give the client/customer the benefit of the doubt... I irrationally expect others to do the same when I'm on the 'opposite side of the counter'.

It's kind of like it is with restaurants these days. My wife and I eat out all the time (literally - we can't cook, so unless someone gets sick... we eat out). We've always tipped well - and moreso for exceptional service. However, what we run into often these days is a server that seems to already be taking offence at our mere presence - and God forbid they bring the wrong drink and have to replace it with the correct one! So after this miserable non-service or at least angry-service meal - what do we do?

We're left with two options, either significantly over-tip for the service rendered - or tip less than we normally would. I've never had to stiff a server, because if it's that bad we've already left the restaurant or asked the manager for a new server.

However, in the example above - there seems no way to avoid reinforcing the attitude and work ethic of the server. If I tip normally, then I'm encouraging them by rewarding a clearly unacceptable level of service - and if I under tip - then I'm encouraging them by allowing them to say "see, I knew I shouldn't give a crap about them... they're bad tippers anyway".

I think, due to the issues you and the others have raised, that many people working in the CE industry (other than manufacturers) have become jaded with the majority of customers that are totally unrealistic in their expectations, bugetary requirements, or understanding that other people need to make a living as well. I get this - but that leaves me in the same situation as it does in the restaurants... Do I encourage this behavior by accepting a level of service far below what I expect for the money (and I have no problem paying for good service if rendered) or do I reinforce their attitude by refusing to accept and pay for poor service?

To be honest that's the reason I accepted the offer of one of my clients and shut my business down (for the most part at least). He was so 'jealous' of the idea that anyone else could buy my time away from him he told me to write down whatever it would take for me to accept just being his employee full-time... so I wrote down a bunch of (to me) ridiculously high demands - and he even went beyond them - like signing over ownership of all code I wrote for him and the allowance to sell that code at my discretion (provided it wasn't to a direct competitor in this market of course)!

I had the same problems with qualified employees that you describe being the case in CE businesses - i.e. there weren't any. OK - exaggeration, but still more of the "I took a class and got a paper - pay me 120K/yr and I'll only work 10-4 5 days a week" type than the "I'm going to work hard enough that you'll be giving me raises 3X a year just to make sure I'm still here the next day" - although I was lucky enough to find one of those... and he's the guy I handed all of my clients over to when I took the position I now have. He's still doing a killer business, and if anything happens with my current job - I know I would have a very competent partner for a new business if I chose to.

Thank you very much for sharing your insights and experiences! Now if I can just find someone as qualified in my area - I'll be all set. Either that or maybe when I start a new life (commerically speaking) I'll branch out a little from network infrastructure to 'anything with a cable' business model. But I wouldn't even consider that until I do a lot more learning myself, or come across a really good EE that's out of work and is an audio/videophile hobbiest at least.

 

[highfigh]

... but I guess because I as a provider of services personally try to always give the client/customer the benefit of the doubt... I irrationally expect others to do the same when I'm on the 'opposite side of the counter'.

It's kind of like it is with restaurants these days. My wife and I eat out all the time (literally - we can't cook, so unless someone gets sick... we eat out). We've always tipped well - and moreso for exceptional service. However, what we run into often these days is a server that seems to already be taking offence at our mere presence - and God forbid they bring the wrong drink and have to replace it with the correct one! So after this miserable non-service or at least angry-service meal - what do we do?

Have you ever asked to speak with the manager? If so, did it get you anywhere? That's who needs to hear about the bad service at a restaurant or any other business. If they don't act on this, it's time to take your business elsewhere.

For that matter, if someone goes into an electronics retailer and they sell "boxes with stuff inside" instead of properly qualifying them and assembling a set of solutions for their "problems", the mangler needs to hear from the customer. Being passive-aggressive doesn't make anything better, although I'm not saying that the customer needs to go in with guns blazing. Being calm and objective is the way to get the best resolution to a dispute and if the manager denies any wrong-doing without acknowledging a problem, it's time to get a refund and walk away from that store.

I have a customer who either just doesn't listen, can't hear me well enough for the info to reach him, doesn't understand these things and can't bring himself to admit it, or his memory is failing. Personally, I think it's all of these and it's the reason I make cheat sheets for him and most of my other customers. Let's face it- if someone isn't a techie and the system is anywhere near complex, there's no reason to NOT use a cheat sheet when they have requested additional features.

It's back to customer service- one thing that I find to be sorely lacking in almost every transaction I'm involved in as a customer. I will admit that some recent experiences have gone well, purely on how the person tried to resolve the issues, though. It's not all bad but when it is, it's really bad.

Happy times! Ding!

 

[digicidal]

It's back to customer service- one thing that I find to be sorely lacking in almost every transaction I'm involved in as a customer. I will admit that some recent experiences have gone well, purely on how the person tried to resolve the issues, though. It's not all bad but when it is, it's really bad.

Amen. And that's what I mean by the vicious cycle: bad customers = bad service (or at least bad service attitudes) = bad customer experiences... and the cycle repeats.

One more question and then I swear I'll leave this thread alone. It's really easy to rattle off a hundred horrible customer service experiences (at least it is for me lately) - but what do you as professionals in the industry feel could potentially be the 'light at the end of the tunnel' for this situation?

I mean, it's not solely the problem with the 'face of the industry' as represented by professionals such as yourselves. The problem of more and more companies cutting QA significantly as they move more an more resources overseas (and often to non-English speaking factories, engineering providers, etc.) and reduce support and education available to industry members as a whole is a big one. I recently was involved (cursorily however) in the development, engineering, and production of a consumer electronic line - can't really go into details, but it was in home automation and security.

It was an absolute nightmare - because the engineering was sourced from India (cost), the production was sourced from two factories in China (cost), and the design lead was located in France (no idea why actually). Just scheduling meetings was a huge pain in the ***, although less for me because I'm a vampire by nature - but the language barriers and cultural differences pretty much guaranteed that the parties involved just spent millions of dollars developing a line of paperweights.

Couple that with my experiences with product lines that used to be very well made, and reasonably priced - which are now expensive Chinese-made crap that is lucky to last a year before requiring replacement... and it's easy to understand why many consumers are leary about dropping serious money on anything 'current' - and why the prices on audio gear from the 80's and 90's keeps appreciating on ebay and audiogon.

Is there hope, in your opinion - or is it a matter of a death spiral in the CE industry?

Oh and yes - I've spoken with many managers - and for the most part they either yell at the employee, but not constructively, or they essentially tell me to deal with it. There are some notable exceptions - but my wife and I are getting sick of eating at those 3 restaurants all the time.

 

[BMXTRIX]

It can be said over and over again, but one of the biggest issues for consumers, is that they don't care enough to educate themselves, but they do care enough to complain.

I strongly encourage you NOT to eat at those three restaurants, or find a server that you DO enjoy, and get to know them and their schedule. A good server is extremely personable and will let you know when they are scheduled. Call the manager over and praise them.

I've actually done that at a McDonalds! Went through the drive-thru and when the guy took my order he was patient, didn't rush me, and got my order perfect with a clear voice and proper thanks. I asked to speak to the manager on duty immediately when I got to the window. Then I told that manager that the order taker was providing exceptional service, far better than I had seen at any drive-thru I had been to in ages... perhaps in my entire life. And, while I did not live locally, it was nice to see such excellent training and a great attitude delivered by that particular employee.

But, I didn't have a choice in who I got, I could only hope to encourage them to keep up the good work, by putting in a good word for them.

I think praise is often missed in the CE industry as much as criticism is delivered. If you meet a good employee, let their boss know. If you stumble upon good luck, thank them, and spread the word to others.

Are we in a death spiral?

I think retail is in a world of hurt because of the Internet. We've seen a number of major big box stores go under in recent years after being around for most of our lives. We've seen some smaller high end stores go away. So, we are left with fewer options at that level than we had before, yet we can still do our dilligence and go to different locations if looking for custom work or just some information.

I think online is one of the best ways to get information because you reach out so far beyond the limited experience of what BB/HH offers. (Best Buy/HH Gregg)

At the end of the day, what I find is that people don't understand that I only deliver one level of service. That is I don't downgrade my service because someone is only spending $1,000 with me instead of $250,000. This is especially true in my 9-5 job where I am a salaried employee. I get paid even if I'm on a service call or just going out to show someone a nuance to their system they don't understand. Or mopping the freakin' floor if they ask me to! If I'm getting paid, then I will do my best to make sure that our company shines and that next year, when raises come along, they remember the good work I did.

But, I also see the exact opposite from any number of employees. I've seen their inexperience, and I've seen their smart mouths running when it was inappropriate. I've passed word on to their managers, and I've spoken to them directly about it. Not to get them in trouble mind you, but to let them know that their poor behavior affects their employer, which is also MY employer. So, I always have a personal stake in the quality of service that everyone delivers.

That is it though. If someone cares enough to want to complain about who they hire to do the work, they also have a responsibility to at least do a bit of research. They ARE entitled to expect that service, but if everyone goes to Best Buy, and continues to buy high end gear and not do any homework, and people continue to complain, it doesn't matter. Because, unlike that employee at the restaurant, Best Buy doesn't operate on tips and you've already spent your money!

Sigh.... Then I get a call to deal with it all.

 

[jostenmeat]

It can be said over and over again, but one of the biggest issues for consumers, is that they don't care enough to educate themselves, but they do care enough to complain.

True. Very related to a thread going on in the steam vent, but with friends/family.

I strongly encourage you NOT to eat at those three restaurants, or find a server that you DO enjoy, and get to know them and their schedule. A good server is extremely personable and will let you know when they are scheduled. Call the manager over and praise them.

I've personally thanked a cook and server(s) before, but I never thought to ask for the manager to dish out my praise. Since this happens so rarely, I hope to remember next time.

 

[digicidal]

It can be said over and over again, but one of the biggest issues for consumers, is that they don't care enough to educate themselves, but they do care enough to complain.

I strongly encourage you NOT to eat at those three restaurants, or find a server that you DO enjoy, and get to know them and their schedule. A good server is extremely personable and will let you know when they are scheduled. Call the manager over and praise them.

We do this often, and I think you misunderstood... those 3 restaurants we eat at all the time are the ones that we've either never had a problem with and have always gotten exemplary service - or that problems were always dealt with in a professional and curteous manner.

We actually have a couple of servers in our phones - and have been known to call ahead to see if they are working a particular shift and have a table available (which they always hold one for us - since we're one of their favorite customers as well).

I guess that's the meat of what I'm getting at with all of this - there seems to be fewer and fewer companies (again here at least) that even know their "video output from a hole in the ground" so-to-speak. I actually heard one 'installer' tell a customer that there was no reason to EVER run conduit for ANYTHING as long as the right cables were purchased. That one confused me because the guy seemed to expect to pay extra for the conduit runs. Needless to say that was my call to exit that particular establishment! However, there's no shortage of them that immediately bristle at a customer that is well informed and calls them on blatantly ficticious upselling and/or incorrect product descriptions/installation requirements.

I'm sure the opposite holds true on the other side of the equation... i.e. the customer that's spent less than 10 minutes on a single website and consequently feels they already know all there is to know about audio, video and the appropriate costs of everything (i.e. everything for nothing).

 

[highfigh]

I think retail is in a world of hurt because of the Internet. We've seen a number of major big box stores go under in recent years after being around for most of our lives. We've seen some smaller high end stores go away. So, we are left with fewer options at that level than we had before, yet we can still do our dilligence and go to different locations if looking for custom work or just some information.

I think online is one of the best ways to get information because you reach out so far beyond the limited experience of what BB/HH offers. (Best Buy/HH Gregg)

But, I also see the exact opposite from any number of employees. I've seen their inexperience, and I've seen their smart mouths running when it was inappropriate. I've passed word on to their managers, and I've spoken to them directly about it. Not to get them in trouble mind you, but to let them know that their poor behavior affects their employer, which is also MY employer. So, I always have a personal stake in the quality of service that everyone delivers.

That is it though. If someone cares enough to want to complain about who they hire to do the work, they also have a responsibility to at least do a bit of research. They ARE entitled to expect that service, but if everyone goes to Best Buy, and continues to buy high end gear and not do any homework, and people continue to complain, it doesn't matter. Because, unlike that employee at the restaurant, Best Buy doesn't operate on tips and you've already spent your money!

Sigh.... Then I get a call to deal with it all.

I think the wheels fell off when retailers began to think that deep discounts would keep them in business by making more sales. The saying "We lose money on every unit but we make it up in volume!" used to be a joke. Price became the main reason for people buying most things and the sellers stopped offering as much service and expertise, because at those prices, they couldn't afford to include them. When people stop noticing this, they keep trying to grind the price lower and pretty soon, it's all crap.

Another problem is employers who accept poor performance and don't weed out the problem employees. I used to hear "If one person has a bad attitude, it's their problem but if the whole place has a bad attitude, it's a management issue". I think it's still true and a lot of owners don't think about this much, if at all.

"Selling" is no longer necessary- it's just asking if the person wants whatever they're looking for and how they want to pay for it. Overcoming objections is far down the list of abilities in most sales staffs, unless they're actually true specialists and work for a serious integration company that doesn't allow "meatball sales and installation".

One of my favorite things is going in after someone else and fixing their screw-ups. Another is when someone tells me that something can't be done when I think/know it can. I worked with a guy who doesn't like long, drawn-out projects, hates dealing with remotes and gets completely lost when there's a lot of cabling. That's good for the rest of us in the area who do this kind of work, because they don't get many big jobs unless it's for a repeat customer but I still get calls asking for help.

 

[GO-NAD!]

ITI, you mentioned that BB employees receive extensive training. Why is it that not much of it sticks? I definitely know more than the average BB employee when it comes to A/V - and I don't think I know a great deal.

I can understand the frustration that custom installers might have with many customers trying to leave them with essentially no profit. Most consumers want the lowest price they can get away with. Some couldn't care less if you starve! It's the nature of the modern economy.

With the rapid pace of change in the CE world, is it realistic to expect a competent installer to be able to do it all? Or, would a "team" of 2, perhaps 3, installers with different skill sets be best able to implement a comprehensive system?

And finally, is "WAF" the biggest obstacle to a "proper" system?

 

[highfigh]

I think a large part of "why doesn't it stick?" has to do with where the person's abilities and interests lie. If they're using this job as just a way to get a paycheck until something better comes along, they won't have much incentive, especially at a place like BB, where they don't pay commission. The lack of commission is another problem- they can sell everything in the store and they won't make much more money.

I was at BB and heard a guy telling two girls that the Klipsch computer speakers they were buying would be a lot better than the ones they were returning. If I had asked "Why?", I'm pretty sure I would have heard the same thing he was told from a marketing standpoint, but with no real understanding.

There are plenty of installers who can run wires (called 'wire monkeys') and make connections but couldn't do a complete system setup if they had a full year. They would get the signal path wrong, would wire speakers in series or parallel and not be able to calculate the load and if they had problems, they couldn't troubleshoot worth a darn. Networking? Forget it. Tell them they have one router port and 5 pieces of gear and they won't know what they need to add to make it happen. Speakers sound bad? That won't be a fast fix, either.

I think a lot of people get into this because they like music but have no technical background and that doesn't usually work.

 

[digicidal]

I think part of the problem from the consumer end is the very same principle that's at work in the real estate market (and something I'm currently beating my head against almost daily).

Everyone wants to get the absolute best price regardless of whether they are selling or buying. Almost all sellers have an unrealistic estimation of value based on two things: 1) they probably overpaid by quite a bit - assuming they bought in the past 5 years or so. 2) it's the house they've lived in and created memories in, so it additionally has sentimental value to them.

So the seller says:

"I paid $400K in 2005, and I've painted the walls red and put in carpeting that's my favorite color of purple, plus I redid all the cabinetry to be the wonderful whitewashed oak that anyone with taste loves as much as I do - so my house (even in a 'down' market) should be worth at least $375K"

And the potential buyer says:

"The forclosure next door went for $110K - and this house has those horrible wall colors, plus I have to tear out all the carpeting and redo all of the cabinetry... and the market is really bad with so few buyers... so I'll make an offer of $80K on this house"

The above plays out daily here... and the real irony is that it is entirely possible that both are the same person - who is expecting to get 90% of what they paid for their own house, and at the same time is expecting to buy someone else's house for 10% of what that person paid for theirs!


The same thing is playing out in CE I think most of the time. The people who make a living selling and installing systems naturally feel that their expertise is of utmost importance to a good system, and that the intrinsic value of that expertise is accordingly high as well. (Not to mention the practical truth of needing to pay the bills and wanting to get that Porsche they've had their eye on for the past 4 years). Couple that with a dropoff in sales (or at least margins on those sales) and reducing the package price at all becomes an affront to their sensibilities.

The consumer is thinking: "hey, the economy is bad yet I'm about to spend a huge amount of money on a luxury item - therefore I should not only be able to get the best - but they should kiss my feet and cut me a deal at the same time! After all, with less business to go around - the vendors should be happy with whatever they can get." So when they are confronted with a vendor that is inflexible on the price - or worse yet - says to them that they need to spend significantly more than they anticipated to achieve the desired results... you have the makings of a fight!

I don't have any solution to this, of course - it's pretty much human nature. It's why everyone in the world (for the most part) hates Americans... we've got almost everything - and we still want more and talk as if we're getting the short end of the stick. However, it's also why so many of them that do have those attitudes - after they immigrate to America - feel that they themselves are now getting the short end of the stick.

Can't we all just get along?

OK - that was mostly off topic - but it was an obvious correlation that I've been noticing lately.