A speakers' amplifier power rating

[Sams]

I have a noob question. I'm considering making a speaker switch for my 2nd attempt to fill an extra large space. Recently I have been reading that for high powered music and ht applications, you want at minimum your speaker's program power rating to be 2x that of your amplifier's rms power rating. Link to article: http://www.prestonelectronics.com/audio/Speakers.htm

My current speakers are rated 20-200 watts. The new ones I'm considering are rated 50-500 watts. Both speakers are 4ohms nominal and 89 db sensitive.

My current amplifier: http://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-4520ci-av-receiver-test-bench#Jokt0zM1LahfL770.97

If I were ever to make an amplifier change, it would be a Marantz sr7*** series: http://www.soundandvision.com/content/marantz-sr7008-av-receiver-test-bench#suIwwJgvpu7VWkY8.97

Looking at the bench test, you can see that the denon 4520ci does 238 watts x2 into a 4 ohm load @ 0.1 % thd and 287 watts x2 into a 4ohm load at 1.0 % thd.

This is, of course, greater than the my current speaker's program power rating.

I previously made a thread struggling to describe my troubles with my speakers at high volumes. In short, I am forced to stay -10db and below. Any higher and it sounds like I'm damaging the speakers. The best way to describe the sound would be painful with noticeable distortion, which requires an immediate reduction of volume. That's it, at this point after tons of reading and some help from my previous thread, there's no better way to describe my situation.

Have I found nirvana? A speaker with a speaker program power rating(2x) the rms power rating of my amp would solve all my problems?

Thanks for reading.

Edit: fixed terms

 

[fmw]

They aren't amplifier power ratings. They are the speaker's rated ability to dissipate power. If you exceed the power rating, you run the risk of damaging the speaker. It has nothing to do with amplifiers. In answer to your question, the one with the higher power rating will play louder before becoming damaged. It isn't any more complicated than that. Whether you would ever come close to running into the maximum power in a home audio installation is very questionable. 20 watts should blow you out of the room.

 

[Sams]

They aren't amplifier power ratings. They are the speaker's rated ability to dissipate power. If you exceed the power rating, you run the risk of damaging the speaker. It has nothing to do with amplifiers. In answer to your question, the one with the higher power rating will play louder before becoming damaged. It isn't any more complicated than that. Whether you would ever come close to running into the maximum power in a home audio installation is very questionable. 20 watts should blow you out of the room.

Would you mind reading the article I linked to see where I'm coming from.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

I read some of the article you linked to. Which is to say, I read enough to know the article is attempting to justify by a speaker manufacturer it's policy to not cover certain damaged drivers under warranty.

They are not even really wrong to not cover the warranty, but the explanation is weak, and should not be relied upon.

You would be well advised to take fmw's advice and learn to ignore power ratings in watts as specified by loudspeakers. There is no standard or agreed method to measure or specify this value. In some cases the power rating of a speaker is a number out of thin air, or perhaps the marketing department's desired number that they feel will sell the most speakers.

Speakers handle power either by creating sound pressure levels, or by creating heat. The SPL is desired, the heat is undesired. Period. Full Stop.

Exactly how much of each, and what ratio it happens at, not only varies from speaker to speaker, but varies based on the kind of program material the speaker is being asked to play, and also varies as the speaker is played (heat accumulates, which alters the ratio such that the speaker plays less loud and creates more heat over time).

Once the ability to dissipate the heat is equal to the heat being generated, than even a single watt more means the speaker is failing to some degree because that heat is attacking the physical materials the speaker is made of, and heat failure is permanent.

How many watts is that? Well, it's not a fixed number, but if you could measure it at that point, that would be your power rating. For that day. With that song. Using that amp.

 

[fmw]

Would you mind reading the article I linked to see where I'm coming from.

I know where you are coming from. I've been involved in audio for more than half a century. I've learned most of what I know the hard and expensive way. My advice is to listen to the knowlegeable enthusiasts here. They aren't trying to sell you anything. Manufacturers and dealers have an interest in selling you things. That's why they are a bad place to get audio advice. Ignore the speaker power rating. It has no meaning in home audio. It is important in some pro audio applications.

Understand that high volume and high fidelity are usually inversely proportional to each other. If you want loud, then choose some pro audio sound reinforcement speakers. They are sturdier. If you want better sound, then choose a home audio model that will be more delicate. In order to have both you have to spend a small fortune.

 

[j_garcia]

The wattage rating has ZERO to do with how much power you need. Even if that rating had a purposeful meaning, power requirements will vary from room to room, your desired listening level, etc...

 

[markw]

Just because a speaker manufacturer claims their product can handle so many watts doesn't mean it will sound good doing so.

Those bench tests are taken pushing the amp to it's maximum limits. You will rarely, if ever, push your home unit to it's limits except perhaps very, very short times. If you did, you would be in excruciating pain and most likely deaf. Most times you use only a handful (literally) of watts.

If one uses common sense, one can drive any speaker with any amplifier if you follow this rule: "If it sounds bad, turn it down immediately!'

 

[Sams]

I know where you are coming from. I've been involved in audio for more than half a century. I've learned most of what I know the hard and expensive way. My advice is to listen to the knowlegeable enthusiasts here. They aren't trying to sell you anything. Manufacturers and dealers have an interest in selling you things. That's why they are a bad place to get audio advice. Ignore the speaker power rating. It has no meaning in home audio. It is important in some pro audio applications.

Understand that high volume and high fidelity are usually inversely proportional to each other. If you want loud, then choose some pro audio sound reinforcement speakers. They are sturdier. If you want better sound, then choose a home audio model that will be more delicate. In order to have both you have to spend a small fortune.

I am trying to understand both of u guys. So how are you supposed to achieve synergy with an amp and a pair of speakers? If I'm not able to achieve the sound quality I want with the volume I want, with my amp and speakers, how do I get what I want? Is my amp at fault, is the speaker at fault, or both? What do I look for when shopping?

Do I simply keeping buying bigger and more expensive amplifiers and speakers and test them in my room with my playback material until I finally get the sound quality I want at the volume I want?

 

[markw]

Well, for starters, you might say what speakers you have and are considering. Most indicate a maximum speaker level. This is more important than the maximum power rating.

Speakers are made to only pay so loud and even though they might not go up in flames if power is applied, you might be expecting too much from them and they will distort. Small speakers are well known for that.

IOW, a speakers job is to move air. A speaker has limited excursion, which determines how much air it can move, which determines how loud a speaker can play. When it exceeds it's excursion, or overheats. it will sound bad and/or eventually blow out.

I think I hinted at that earlier. Reread my earlier post and take it to heart.

FWIW, between fmw and myself, you've got over a century of experience here. I'm sure the others aren't too far behind us.

 

[Sams]

Well, for starters, you might say what speakers you have and are considering. Most indicate a maximum speaker level. This is more important than the maximum power rating.

Speakers are made to only pay so loud and even though they might not go up in flames if power is applied, you might be expecting too much from them and they will distort. Small speakers are well known for that.

IOW, a speakers job is to move air. A speaker has limited excursion, which determines how much air it can move, which determines how loud a speaker can play. When it exceeds it's excursion, or overheats. it will sound bad and/or eventually blow out.

I think I hinted at that earlier. Reread my earlier post and take it to heart.

FWIW, between fmw and myself, you've got over a century of experience here. I'm sure the others aren't too far behind us.

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/706revel/

Power rating: http://www.revelspeakers.com/productdetail/~/product/f12.html

 

[markw]

Are you using a subwoofer with them? They don't seem to be all that capable in the deep bass area. If you're trying to coax deep, extended, authoritative bass out of them you'll need one.

Again, I see they don't specify a maximum spl.

 

[Sams]

Are you using a subwoofer with them? They don't seem to be all that capable in the deep bass area. If you're trying to coax deep, extended, authoritative bass out of them you'll need one.

Again, I see they don't specify a maximum spl.

I'd rather avoid subwoofers because I've had problems blending them with 2 channel in my experience. So I hesitantly picked up the matching revel b1 subwoofer. I think I gained about 3db, maybe a bit more, but not a huge difference. It improves the movie experience(I suspect because it receives the discrete lfe channel), music meh.

In my previous thread we talked about adding big internet direct subs, in addition to a twice as powerful amplifier and speaker swap.

I listen to mainly rock and alternative, occasionally hip hop/electronic. I have followed the "if it sounds bad turn it down rule", so I know my speakers limits. There is no impact and feel up to that limit, hence my dilemma.

I might be jumping the gun here, but today I've been thinking maybe I have no business buying audiophile speakers. After all I'm not after delicate background music and I can't afford something like Wilson audio. Perhaps I need to be looking at Klipsch reference(not Best Buy) and jbl synthesis.

Edit: these were the speakers I was considering trying next, http://www.bostonacoustics.com/US/Product/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?CatId=HomeAudio(BostonAcoustics_US)&SubCatId=0&Pid=M350B(BostonAcoustics)

http://www.stereophile.com/content/boston-acoustics-m350-loudspeaker

 

[TheWarrior]

I'd rather avoid subwoofers because I've had problems blending them with 2 channel in my experience. So I hesitantly picked up the matching revel b1 subwoofer. I think I gained about 3db, maybe a bit more, but not a huge difference. It improves the movie experience(I suspect because it receives the discrete lfe channel), music meh.

In my previous thread we talked about adding big internet direct subs, in addition to a twice as powerful amplifier and speaker swap.

I listen to mainly rock and alternative, occasionally hip hop/electronic. I have followed the "if it sounds bad turn it down rule", so I know my speakers limits. There is no impact and feel up to that limit, hence my dilemma.

I might be jumping the gun here, but today I've been thinking maybe I have no business buying audiophile speakers. After all I'm not after delicate background music and I can't afford something like Wilson audio. Perhaps I need to be looking at Klipsch reference(not Best Buy) and jbl synthesis.

Edit: these were the speakers I was considering trying next, http://www.bostonacoustics.com/US/Product/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?CatId=HomeAudio(BostonAcoustics_US)&SubCatId=0&Pid=M350B(BostonAcoustics)

http://www.stereophile.com/content/boston-acoustics-m350-loudspeaker

If you want (good) full range sound with out a subwoofer, thats a speaker that will set you back a few dollars. What is your budget, and what are the dimensions of your room, listening distance? And if you have any pics, post em!

 

[fmw]

I am trying to understand both of u guys. So how are you supposed to achieve synergy with an amp and a pair of speakers? If I'm not able to achieve the sound quality I want with the volume I want, with my amp and speakers, how do I get what I want? Is my amp at fault, is the speaker at fault, or both? What do I look for when shopping?

Do I simply keeping buying bigger and more expensive amplifiers and speakers and test them in my room with my playback material until I finally get the sound quality I want at the volume I want?

We don't know what sound quality you want, what volume you want, what you have as a budget nor do we know much about your venue. We provided some guidelines.

 

[markw]

there's no replacement for displacement. If you want the bass it seems you crave, you need large speakers. Puny towers will never satisfy.

Get a Hsu, SVS, or some other subwoofer from a dedicated subwoofer manufacturer.

 

[PENG]

I am trying to understand both of u guys. So how are you supposed to achieve synergy with an amp and a pair of speakers? If I'm not able to achieve the sound quality I want with the volume I want, with my amp and speakers, how do I get what I want? Is my amp at fault, is the speaker at fault, or both? What do I look for when shopping?

Do I simply keeping buying bigger and more expensive amplifiers and speakers and test them in my room with my playback material until I finally get the sound quality I want at the volume I want?

It seems to me you have been given good advice from everyone so far. The article you linked is actually a very good one. I found nothing technically incorrect in that article. The writer was talking in general terms and provided basically rule of thumb scenario but nothing specifics to an individual’s need.

I think your Revel speakers could do a great job for you depending on your listening habits and your room acoustic conditions. So it may be time you provide the following information for us to come up with something more specific.

Room dimensions: LXWXH

Speaker configuration: 2.0, 2.1, 5.1 etc.?

Sitting position distance from speakers

SPL you need at your sitting position, please include your typical need and occasional (louder) needs.

Type of music (you provided that), but what source, MP3, MP4, vinyl, CD, SACD, digital Flac, wave bit rate/depth etc.

Then, given that we know you have a 4520ci and Revel F12 for L/R, with the additional info we should be able to figure out how much power you need.

Again, there is nothing wrong with the linked article, but its goal is to keep you from blowing your speakers not much beyond that.

 

[Sams]

there's no replacement for displacement. If you want the bass it seems you crave, you need large speakers. Puny towers will never satisfy.

Get a Hsu, SVS, or some other subwoofer from a dedicated subwoofer manufacturer.

Gotcha, so if I'm running out of volume and/or not getting the impact I want=I simply need bigger speakers/drivers. And as you mentioned earlier the max spl spec is a spec actually worth checking out. I'm guessing that impact comes from mid bass. Simple as that, correct?

 

[markw]

I think that depends on your definition of mid bass but getting the visceral feel from your music puts a lot of stress on the sub 100 hz range.

 

[Sams]

We don't know what sound quality you want, what volume you want, what you have as a budget nor do we know much about your venue. We provided some guidelines.

1. I want to be able to hit thx reference on my receiver before the speaker breaks up.

2. I want to be able to fill the theater area all the way to the pool table.

 

[Sams]

It seems to me you have been given good advice from everyone so far. The article you linked is actually a very good one. I found nothing technically incorrect in that article. The writer was talking in general terms and provided basically rule of thumb scenario but nothing specifics to an individual’s need.

I think your Revel speakers could do a great job for you depending on your listening habits and your room acoustic conditions. So it may be time you provide the following information for us to come up with something more specific.

Room dimensions: LXWXH

Speaker configuration: 2.0, 2.1, 5.1 etc.?

Sitting position distance from speakers

SPL you need at your sitting position, please include your typical need and occasional (louder) needs.

Type of music (you provided that), but what source, MP3, MP4, vinyl, CD, SACD, digital Flac, wave bit rate/depth etc.

Then, given that we know you have a 4520ci and Revel F12 for L/R, with the additional info we should be able to figure out how much power you need.

Again, there is nothing wrong with the linked article, but its goal is to keep you from blowing your speakers not much beyond that.

1. Room dimensions: see link. I want to fill theater and billiards.

2. 2.1(revel b1 subwoofer: http://www.revelspeakers.com/productdetail/~/product/b1.html)

3. Seating is about 10 feet or so from the speakers.

4. I don't know what spl I need but I'd be willing to try and figure it out. All I know is I can't hit thx reference level on my receiver before the speaker breaks up, the highs are painful well below that level as well.

5. Red book cd quality/bluray for movies