a question on power...

gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Guys I wish I had more time to contribute to this thread, but I am preparing for some travels to cool companies which I will be writing articles on shortly ;)

I just wanted to point out a couple of things:

1) The S&V as well as most magazine power tests are usually conducted with the line voltage held constant. In some cases they even replace the power fuse on the receiver with a higher rated one to do the test. This is a very unrealistic test condition. But the advantage is repeatability of testing and of course bloated power figures. We don't test with the line voltage held constant but always monitor it to ensure the line isn't dropping below 115Vrms during our testing.

2) Their tests are typically with an automated script on their audio analyzer to plot power vs distortion. While this is a useful test to show the max limits of the amp, it is not a continuous test signal so real world numbers will be a bit lower.

3) Their power #'s are usually into clipping at 1%. I really think power tests should be conducted with no more than 0.1% THD. IMO, testing into clipping is like a guy claiming he can bench 405lbs but needs a spotter to lift the weight off the rack and keep his fingers on the bar while he does a single rep. A true test of strength is the ability to lift the weight on your own more than one time, at least that’s how I feel about it.

You really have to know if the tested are conducted in the same manner each time. Usually its poorly documented such was the case several years ago when S&V forgot to hold the line voltage constant when they mistakenly measured a Denon AVR-4802 to put out more power than a Yamaha RX-V1. I am not pointing fingers at S&V, as much as I am trying to convey not putting too much weight on a power measurement that varies 10-20 watts or so between products even if tested by the same publication and/or reviewer.

4) Power consumption on the back of a receiver is usually not a max rating. It is usually a rating per UL to test two channels at full power and all remaining power at 1/8 max.

As I have stated many times in the past, and others in this thread have also; “All Channels Driven” is an unrealistic, worst case test condition into a best case test load. It’s not at all representative of what happens in real world home theater or music. What you should pay attention to is frequency response uniformity, signal to noise ratio, output impedance, and distortion at various power levels and impedances. The amp should have a robust enough power supply to tap full power into 2 or 3 channels with a continuous white noise pulse, or even a steady state sweep, but also have enough headroom for peak power demands similar to the IEC specification for dynamic power.

In closing realize that in today’ home theater realm, speakers are typically 87dB @ 1 watt/meter or greater with relatively constant impedance profiles not dipping below 4 ohms. In addition, the typical user usually has all speakers set to small with a HPF 12dB/oct slope with the bass being redirected to a dedicated subwoofer or two. If the speakers impedance dip is at low frequencies, no worries since they will be crossed over via the bass management of the receiver. If the dip is at high frequencies, really not of much concern since above 8kHz, music is mostly harmonic in nature thus very little power demand to the amplifier. Most of the power demand in home theater is in the bass where you have high power subwoofers handling it.

Only in the largest installs with very low efficient speakers and high SPL demands do you need ultra high powerful amplifiers. In most cases a mid to high end receiver will have enough power to deliver home theater with aplomb.
 
R

rumble

Audioholic
msmith855 said:
Some very interesting discussion, and it's even making me lean more towards Pioneer after all (maybe... if I can tear away from my Yamaha bias)....

I've heard the term "cleaner power" before... but what does that REALLY mean to me? is there a real discernable difference?
I recently upgraded my quite old receiver to an Pioneer 1014. I spent a late night wiring it all up and did not get a chance to really try it out until the next day. We happened to have to people over at the house that day while I was messing around with some movies. I was listening to a movie at what I thought was my normal "polite" volume level when I noticed someone in the kitchen talking to me. I could see their lips move but could not hear a bit of sound coming from them. Turns out I had the volume level way higher than I thought. The sound was so clean it just didn't register as being as loud as it was with my old system.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Gene, it is good to see that you don't mind repeating some of the things you explained before. Also, thank you for clarifying the "power consumption at the back of the receiver" being not ususally the maximum.

However, I did read the Harman Kardon receiver's manuals, they do (but not Denon/Yamaha/Sony/Pioneer etc.) specify their power consumption as maximum, with all 7 channels driven. So I guess that is one of the reasons why their numbers (consumption) are so high. I also wonder if their design call for more losses than others. 890W for a 31 lbs AVR335 seem like unreasonably high. I used to have a Sony DA4ES that weighs 21 kg (46.2 lbs) and the power consumption at the back was something like 390VA., yet it sounded quite powerful to me.
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
If anyone wants to question power, here's one for you. Check out the beauty and beast of this powerhouse.

And, btw, if you find this on ebay, please let me know. It may be my next purchase. I just got rid of a wonderful 680 model. The new ones just don't sound the way these classics used to (probably my hearing). :rolleyes:

www.silverpioneer.netfirms.com/sx-1980.htm
 
Duffinator

Duffinator

Audioholic Field Marshall
Gene, glad to see you don't have any more time or I might spend all night reading your informative post. :)

Your points on the S&V tests are well taken and my example was not meant to promote that their methodology is correct or accurate. Although I do think their reports are consistent and even though you give an example of an error they made, and sounds like they owned up to, I believe they still provide one benchmark that consumers can use for comparison. I have no technical knowledge that allows me to express my preference of one methodology over another and I'm sure there are other opinions on how to conduct power rating tests.

In response to the original post the S&V lab test document was mearly a quick example of how the power ratings vary with todays receivers with different configurations of channels driven and I think the example shows that.
 
Duffinator

Duffinator

Audioholic Field Marshall
Buckeyefan 1 said:
If anyone wants to question power, here's one for you. Check out the beauty and beast of this powerhouse.

And, btw, if you find this on ebay, please let me know. It may be my next purchase. I just got rid of a wonderful 680 model. The new ones just don't sound the way these classics used to (probably my hearing). :rolleyes:

www.silverpioneer.netfirms.com/sx-1980.htm
That's a beast. My uncle has a SX-1250 and he's the original owner, I've asked him to leave it to me in his will.

http://www.silverpioneer.netfirms.com/SX-1250.htm
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
Buckeye: If anyone wants to question power, here's one for you. Check out the beauty and beast of this powerhouse.

And, btw, if you find this on ebay, please let me know. It may be my next purchase. I just got rid of a wonderful 680 model. The new ones just don't sound the way these classics used to (probably my hearing).

www.silverpioneer.netfirms.com/sx-1980.htm

Duffinator: That's a beast. My uncle has a SX-1250 and he's the original owner, I've asked him to leave it to me in his will.

http://www.silverpioneer.netfirms.com/SX-1250.htm
Those were the 5805's of their day!

Very tempting...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=39789&item=5783102079&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=39789&item=5783782258&rd=1
 
M

msmith855

Junior Audioholic
Buckeyefan 1 said:
If these newbies shop hard for speakers with higher spl ratings, the entire powersupply issue is out the window. Wouldn't it be wonderful if all future speakers came with a 94dB or higher spl rating?

Alright you guys are killing me here! :D

The more I hang out in here the more I realize how much I really don't know about all this stuff (don't tell my friends... lol). So based on your above comment here are the current front speakers and center channel speaker I own currently.

http://www.infinitysystems.com/homeaudio/product_detail.aspx?prod=BETA50BK&series=BET&cat=BFS

http://www.infinitysystems.com/homeaudio/product_detail.aspx?prod=BETAC360BK&series=BET&cat=CCS

Based on the specs and from reading through the posts, I'm drawing a conclusion that the "spl" rating is 91db(?). With that in mind, should I be less concerned about power then? Why?

As a side note, my back speakers are Acoustic Research and the subwoofer is Yamaha, but those are next on my list of things to upgrade anyway. :cool:
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
msmith855 said:
Alright you guys are killing me here! :D

The more I hang out in here the more I realize how much I really don't know about all this stuff (don't tell my friends... lol). So based on your above comment here are the current front speakers and center channel speaker I own currently.

http://www.infinitysystems.com/homeaudio/product_detail.aspx?prod=BETA50BK&series=BET&cat=BFS

http://www.infinitysystems.com/homeaudio/product_detail.aspx?prod=BETAC360BK&series=BET&cat=CCS

Based on the specs and from reading through the posts, I'm drawing a conclusion that the "spl" rating is 91db(?). With that in mind, should I be less concerned about power then? Why?

As a side note, my back speakers are Acoustic Research and the subwoofer is Yamaha, but those are next on my list of things to upgrade anyway. :cool:
Those are really nice speakers. At 91dB, and as nice as they are, I wouldn't go with anything less than the Pioneer 1015, Yamaha 5890, Marantz SR8400, or Denon 2805.
 
M

msmith855

Junior Audioholic
Alright Buckeye... it took awhile.. but you convinced me to get off my Yamaha bias... I'm getting the Pioneer 1015. Thanks again to everyone for the help!
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
msmith855 said:
Based on the specs and from reading through the posts, I'm drawing a conclusion that the "spl" rating is 91db(?). With that in mind, should I be less concerned about power then? Why?
Just to clarify the terminology: That 91 dB rating is the speaker's sensitivity, sometimes also (incorrectly) called efficiency.

What it means is that when the speaker is fed 1 watt of power it will produce 91 dB Sound Pressure Level (SPL) when measured 1 meter from the speaker. You might see people write it as: 91dB/1W/1M

The higher the sensitivity, the less power is needed to reach the same SPL. It takes double the power to achieve a 3 dB gain in SPL. So if you were using 88 dB speakers it would require 2 watts from the amp (instead of 1 watt) to reach the same 91 dB 1 meter from the speaker, because the 88 dB speakers are 3 dB less sensitive. All else being equal, higher senstivity is better.
 
M

msmith855

Junior Audioholic
MDS said:
Just to clarify the terminology: That 91 dB rating is the speaker's sensitivity, sometimes also (incorrectly) called efficiency.

What it means is that when the speaker is fed 1 watt of power it will produce 91 dB Sound Pressure Level (SPL) when measured 1 meter from the speaker. You might see people write it as: 91dB/1W/1M

The higher the sensitivity, the less power is needed to reach the same SPL. It takes double the power to achieve a 3 dB gain in SPL. So if you were using 88 dB speakers it would require 2 watts from the amp (instead of 1 watt) to reach the same 91 dB 1 meter from the speaker, because the 88 dB speakers are 3 dB less sensitive. All else being equal, higher senstivity is better.
Thanks for the further clarification MDS, that makes a lot of sense. I'll have to let you all know how everything sounds once it's all hooked up.. you guys helped A LOT!
 

Clayx

Audiophyte
rumble said:
I still own a working Pioneer vsx-903s. It's a Dolby Pro Logic unit that has two amps, one for the front lcr at 100 watts for each channel and the second for the rear surrounds at 100 watts for each of the two speakers. When you switch this receiver to 2 channel stereo mode its rating is 130 watts per channel.

Really quite an odd piece of gear I believe.
I have been trying to find a user manual for the VSX 903S for about six months, with no luck at all. Is there a way I could pay you for a copy of this?

Any help as to where to aquire a copy wold be appreciated. I guess I could guess my way through the learning curve, but have been out of town till now.

thanks
 
D

Dryseals

Audioholic Intern
mtrycrafts said:
DVV said:
For example, use OFC high purity copper wiring instead of the usual standard fare,
DVV said:
What may be your evidence for this claims? Any worthwhile resistance change?

Then the design. You get the idea.


I am trying but my reading tells me otherwise ;)

"Topological Analysis of Consumer Audio Electronics: Another Approach to Show that Modern Audio Electronics are Acoustically Transparent", Rich, David and Aczel, Peter, 99 AES Convention, 1995, Print #4053.


To the best of my knowledge, the only worthwhile way to tune up your HT receiver is to buy a decent power line filter.


Maybe an expansion of this knowledge is in order? :)

This will offload the power supply so that the electrolytic caps will act more as power reserves and less as filters, since they being fed cleaner power.

You think? :confused:
By all means, please expound on this. I know a lot of critical gear that I used to work on used high frequency power supplies, create a 1K signal and then rectify it. The main porpuse was for the front portion of the signal to eliminate noise, easier to a more stable DC at 1K than 60HZ. The finals were using the same ole power supply theroy, power now being the critical path verses cleansliness.
My understanding of caps has always been as a voltage device and serve little practical purpose as a power reserve were current draw becomes an issue along with stable voltage. In walks ELI the ICE man.
 
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