A novelty project

[MrBoat]

I say that because the drivers are relatively inexpensive, and the boxes are tiny and just plain weird. The drivers are the Peerless by Tymphany TC9FD18-08 3-1/2" Full Range Paper Cone Woofer. The project is the Nola Brio Trio, satellite/subwoofer system clones. I use the word "clones" loosely because the information/values of the speakers are somewhat erroneous. By what information is granted, the drivers should be the 16 ohm version of the TC9 but these are not readily available. I tried to find them and even though they are listed on Tymphany's site, I can't find them for sale, even across the pond. Still, people have built them with the 8 ohm version claiming success.

I don't want to post someone else's project photos from the net so I'll just describe them and if someone is curious, they can google it if they don't already know.

The boxes are 5.5"W X 5.5"D X 12"H. One woofer is in a ported enclosure on the bottom, with the upper, mounted in a sort of caged, open baffle. A hybrid of sorts.

The subwoofer is reported to be the Peerless by Tymphany 830667 8" Paper Cone SLS Subwoofer so I may try that one to go along with the theme of it all.

\
I expect TLSguy could likely rip this project to shreds of why it's such a bad (but then, maybe he has some beneficial input to make it right before(other than burn it at the stake) it goes all wrong) idea, but I have heard some pretty nice sounding full range drivers in lesser arrangements that should not sound as good as they do. Mostly with computer desktop speakers. Something about the smaller subwoofer drivers that translates well into the midrange of these full range speakers. They sound lifeless, crappy even, without it.

Basically, this is cheap entertainment and I can build it with leftovers I have laying around. Maybe I'll get lucky.

Parts total, with caps, is roughly $68 shipped from PE. The subwoofer I'm not getting until I can tell if these even work. I can try them with my existing subs.

Maybe this will be a good candidate for the little 50w monoprice tube hybrid amp.

 

[shadyJ]

Unless you just want that particular sub just to have a Nola Brio Trio replica, I would not bother with their subwoofer. There is nothing inherently superior for that sub design to go with those speakers aside from its small size. You can probably make a much better sub for less $ if you are willing to tolerate a larger cabinet size.

As for the speakers, I would avoid dipoles if I were you, unless you know that particular sound and want it. The dipole part of that speaker will reduce lateral reflections through cancellation. The problem is, lateral reflections can be advantageous and add a sense of space. It might have a bizarre dispersion pattern because one chunk of the speaker is dipole and the other chunk is monopole. One thing a speaker should have is a spectrally uniform dispersion, whether it be bipole, dipole, or monopole. From what I see this speaker stands a good chance of not even having that. I would say don't believe any hype about these speakers until someone produces some measurements.

If you are interested in building some small computer speakers, check out the Heliums. I have heard these, and they are the most impressive satellite speakers I have heard to date. That little Dayton 3.5" driver has almost 5 mm of Xmax, which is crazy for that diameter. The Heliums will have a very wide dispersion pattern, they will have much extended treble response over the Brio trio, and probably more powerful mid and upper bass. The Helium is also robust- The pair I saw were hooked up to an iNuke, and we cranked it and it survived hundreds of watts! (do not try that though, we were just trying to see if it could be killed).

 

[MrBoat]

Unless you just want that particular sub just to have a Nola Brio Trio replica, I would not bother with their subwoofer. There is nothing inherently superior for that sub design to go with those speakers aside from its small size. You can probably make a much better sub for less $ if you are willing to tolerate a larger cabinet size.

As for the speakers, I would avoid dipoles if I were you, unless you know that particular sound and want it. The dipole part of that speaker will reduce lateral reflections through cancellation. The problem is, lateral reflections can be advantageous and add a sense of space. It might have a bizarre dispersion pattern because one chunk of the speaker is dipole and the other chunk is monopole. One thing a speaker should have is a spectrally uniform dispersion, whether it be bipole, dipole, or monopole. From what I see this speaker stands a good chance of not even having that. I would say don't believe any hype about these speakers until someone produces some measurements.

If you are interested in building some small computer speakers, check out the Heliums. I have heard these, and they are the most impressive satellite speakers I have heard to date. That little Dayton 3.5" driver has almost 5 mm of Xmax, which is crazy for that diameter. The Heliums will have a very wide dispersion pattern, they will have much extended treble response over the Brio trio, and probably more powerful mid and upper bass. The Helium is also robust- The pair I saw were hooked up to an iNuke, and we cranked it and it survived hundreds of watts! (do not try that though, we were just trying to see if it could be killed).

I appreciate the information and I trust what you are saying. But I already own the 4, 3.5" Peerless drivers. In spite of what I have read, which has as many, or perhaps more knowledgeable people against this type of speaker, there are still some that like it. I am just curious to what horrors are in these types of designs, being so many go to such great lengths to implement them. Personally, I think OB designs are unsightly. I also have no complaints or lacking with even the simple BR types that I own. This is merely an exercise. There are other designs that use these drivers. Perhaps it will jog someone else's input to some other experiment with them in the future.

I still have TLS's design with the alpairs on the block which is one that really intrigues me. That's likely going to be my next serious build. I already have two of the drivers for that and the crossover parts. Perhaps around Christmas, or around the beginning of next year. I need to free up some space here first is all. Small speaker projects I can stash. Larger ones, not so much.

I already own two subs and an Inuke 3000dsp amp. The UM12-22 (in use) and the RSS315HF-4. The RSS will probably end up getting paired up with the Continuums.

 

[MrBoat]

If you are interested in building some small computer speakers, check out the Heliums.

I actually like the looks of that. Thank you for suggesting it.

 

[shadyJ]

I appreciate the information and I trust what you are saying. But I already own the 4, 3.5" Peerless drivers. In spite of what I have read, which has as many, or perhaps more knowledgeable people against this type of speaker, there are still some that like it. I am just curious to what horrors are in these types of designs, being so many go to such great lengths to implement them. Personally, I think OB designs are unsightly. I also have no complaints or lacking with even the simple BR types that I own. This is merely an exercise. There are other designs that use these drivers. Perhaps it will jog someone else's input to some other experiment with them in the future.

I still have TLS's design with the alpairs on the block which is one that really intrigues me. That's likely going to be my next serious build. I already have two of the drivers for that and the crossover parts. Perhaps around Christmas, or around the beginning of next year. I need to free up some space here first is all. Small speaker projects I can stash. Larger ones, not so much.

I already own two subs and an Inuke 3000dsp amp. The UM12-22 (in use) and the RSS315HF-4. The RSS will probably end up getting paired up with the Continuums.

I am not saying the Brio is the worst speaker ever conceived, I am just saying it wouldn't be my first choice for a small speaker. But since you already have the parts and are curious, there isn't much reason not to. Even if you don't like it, you still won't have lost much by making it.

Maybe instead of using those drivers for a weird dipole/monopole 1.5-way design, see if they can work in a MTM with some kind of small tweeter.

 

[MrBoat]

I am not saying the Brio is the worst speaker ever conceived, I am just saying it wouldn't be my first choice for a small speaker. But since you already have the parts and are curious, there isn't much reason not to. Even if you don't like it, you still won't have lost much by making it.

Maybe instead of using those drivers for a weird dipole/monopole 1.5-way design, see if they can work in a MTM with some kind of small tweeter.

True, plus I have a few different small speakers/systems for reference and I chose this just to teach my ears a thing or two. The other curiosity has to do with my listening space. It's been difficult to make any of the types I have tried in here to fail, some of which have been full range. After this, it leaves perhaps TLs, and coaxials without getting into back loaded horns and some other exotic horn types.

 

[MrBoat]

Making some progress on the clones. Home Depot's birch ply sure has gone to hell though. They've finally broke me of buying anymore plywood from them. I had to actually spline in some cedar shim stock in the voids on the edges just to machine the stuff. They call it Russian birch. I call it Russian luan, because that's what it machines like. Splintery fuzzy stuff and I have new router bits that work well on other stock, including doug-fir marine ply. Face veneers are really paper thin. Someone got a deal. Some commissioned purchasing agent, I imagine.

Going to be some patching needed and run thru the round-over process again. There goes the so-called savings when you figure in extra treatments and double work.

I had to freehand router the odd shaped driver countersinks, so I outlined them well with a utility knife beforehand and routed to within about a 64th" and just cleaned out the rest with the utility knife and wood chisel after.

I'm not expecting much from this attempt. It's basically just a way to audition the drivers to see what they have or if they're worth doing something else with. Perhaps one of the Karlson types or something. At this point, it's more about just messing with the wood and tools and it gets me outdoors.

Also found I have a pair of Dayton PA130-8's in my stash and cannot for the life of me remember when I ordered them, or if they were in the gift box of parts a car audio buddy of mine gave me sometime back. He doesn't remember either.

 

[highfigh]

As much as I agree with the guy who sharpens my cutting tools when he says "MDF and particle board are the hot dogs of the lumber industry", MDF does machine well and hold up when finished. I only buy plywood from places that supply cabinetmakers and serious builders. I gave up on Home Depot and Menard's a long time ago WRT lumber. I bought a pine shelf last year and had to reinforce it, so it wouldn't sag across its width.

 

[MrBoat]

As much as I agree with the guy who sharpens my cutting tools when he says "MDF and particle board are the hot dogs of the lumber industry", MDF does machine well and hold up when finished. I only buy plywood from places that supply cabinetmakers and serious builders. I gave up on Home Depot and Menard's a long time ago WRT lumber. I bought a pine shelf last year and had to reinforce it, so it wouldn't sag across its width.

Yes, MDF does machine and finish well.

Couple years ago, the birch ply at HD had nearly double the plies and was glued better. This newer stuff tries to delam during the machining processes. Real garbage, comparatively, yet is the same price. A lowes near me has d-fir marine exterior ply and is a better product and a full .75", even though they too, have gotten rather thin on the faces as well. The other difference with the other selections from HD is that it's a near metric equivalent, favoring the weak side, which is erroneous to use with regard to finish dimension vs inside. Or ends up being a weird metric such as, 17.6mm. Half the time you end up splitting 16ths on a tape measure with the 16th as it's lowest increment. Really inconsiderate of an outlet that caters mostly to construction, where the majority of users will be using a tape measure.

But hey, they get an extra sheet at the mill per ever so many sheets for the same money. I'll be going to a better lumber supply from here on out. Going to go by Craftsmen Supply today to see what he can do. I'm going to bring an offcut of this crap with me to show what I 'don't' want.

Signal MDO is another plywood I have used. It has fir cores, with paintable, phenolic paper faces used by the sign trade. Very durable exterior ply that was always flat.

 

[highfigh]

Yes, MDF does machine and finish well.

Couple years ago, the birch ply at HD had nearly double the plies and was glued better. This newer stuff tries to delam during the machining processes. Real garbage, comparatively, yet is the same price. A lowes near me has d-fir marine exterior ply and is a better product and a full .75", even though they too, have gotten rather thin on the faces as well. The other difference with the other selections from HD is that it's a near metric equivalent, favoring the weak side, which is erroneous to use with regard to finish dimension vs inside. Or ends up being a weird metric such as, 17.6mm. Half the time you end up splitting 16ths on a tape measure with the 16th as it's lowest increment. Really inconsiderate of an outlet that caters mostly to construction, where the majority of users will be using a tape measure.

But hey, they get an extra sheet at the mill per ever so many sheets for the same money. I'll be going to a better lumber supply from here on out. Going to go by Craftsmen Supply today to see what he can do. I'm going to bring an offcut of this crap with me to show what I 'don't' want.

Signal MDO is another plywood I have used. It has fir cores, with paintable, phenolic paper faces used by the sign trade. Very durable exterior ply that was always flat.

The metric equivalent to 3/4" is supposed to be 19mm, but I'm going to assume they (whoever supplies HD and other low-end sellers) made that crap without drying it before glue-up.

Construction isn't so picky that 1/16" matters, unless you're trying to laminate a lot of pieces and the difference adds up through 'tolerance stacking'. My house was built in 1946 and two 28" closet doors were framed with the top of one side 3/4" higher than the other. I caught one when I remodeled, missed the other because I didn't do anything to the bathroom, other than hang the new door AFTER replacing the trim on the other side of the opening. DOH!

If you want accuracy, buy from a place that supplies the cabinet industry- the frustration isn't worth dealing with. MDO is great, if you need durable but for speakers, the reason so many use MDF is because it's consistent (back to the hot dog reference) and because it has a smooth surface. I would, however, avoid HD, Menard's and other cheap MDF- I used some from both of these places and it was crap. Not stiff, it delaminated when bent and it almost seemed like the inside was damp. It was darker than what I was getting from the other place (Plumb Creek was stamped on the edges) and when I cut rabbets or dados, it was so weak I was afraid to pick it up.

The photo shows one of the cabinets for the last speakers I built- years later, the dimensions haven't changed and I know this because I cut the faces to provide a 'piston fit' and I still haven't glued or screwed them on. I can slip a thin blade between the side and face to separate it. The material I used for these is hard, consistent and the machined edges are crisp, never crumbling.

 

[MrBoat]

The metric equivalent to 3/4" is supposed to be 19mm, but I'm going to assume they (whoever supplies HD and other low-end sellers) made that crap without drying it before glue-up.

Construction isn't so picky that 1/16" matters, unless you're trying to laminate a lot of pieces and the difference adds up through 'tolerance stacking'. My house was built in 1946 and two 28" closet doors were framed with the top of one side 3/4" higher than the other. I caught one when I remodeled, missed the other because I didn't do anything to the bathroom, other than hang the new door AFTER replacing the trim on the other side of the opening. DOH!

If you want accuracy, buy from a place that supplies the cabinet industry- the frustration isn't worth dealing with. MDO is great, if you need durable but for speakers, the reason so many use MDF is because it's consistent (back to the hot dog reference) and because it has a smooth surface. I would, however, avoid HD, Menard's and other cheap MDF- I used some from both of these places and it was crap. Not stiff, it delaminated when bent and it almost seemed like the inside was damp. It was darker than what I was getting from the other place (Plumb Creek was stamped on the edges) and when I cut rabbets or dados, it was so weak I was afraid to pick it up.

The photo shows one of the cabinets for the last speakers I built- years later, the dimensions haven't changed and I know this because I cut the faces to provide a 'piston fit' and I still haven't glued or screwed them on. I can slip a thin blade between the side and face to separate it. The material I used for these is hard, consistent and the machined edges are crisp, never crumbling.

I agree. But even the pro suppliers are having to resort to some of these off dimensions. Some materials are only available as imported stock. In many instances, pro suppliers are becoming basically like Home Depot, but with a larger selection. Of course, much of our domestic selection is based on essentially premature, 2nd growth raw material so, the quality is not going to be considered excellent. At least that beyond the byproduct materials choices.

My house was built in the 60's. It is just ok.

 

[highfigh]

I agree. But even the pro suppliers are having to resort to some of these off dimensions. Some materials are only available as imported stock. In many instances, pro suppliers are becoming basically like Home Depot, but with a larger selection. Of course, much of our domestic selection is based on essentially premature, 2nd growth raw material so, the quality is not going to be considered excellent. At least that beyond the byproduct materials choices.

My house was built in the 60's. It is just ok.

19mm is the Euro standard, along with thinner dimensions- if the suppliers are bringing variations into the US, it's because of sloppy tolerances and if it continues, it's because the US buyers are clueless or don't care.

I don't remember exactly when it started, but when the Dollar dropped below 150Yen, Japanese plywood companies started sending ships to the US to buy logs in huge quantities. They would take these logs to international water, shave, dry, glue, cut them to size and bundle the finished product before returning in a matter of days, having sold the goods to US buyers. No duties/import taxes, just a lot of profit.

A lot of sheet goods and other lumber sold in the US come from South America, too. Chile is a big supplier.

I buy from a local company that has been in business for over 100 years and when my mom came here from Kansas to marry my dad, she started working for the owner as his personal secretary. My dad's family bought their products for a long time before that, too. They have always made a point of selling better/best quality lumber and it's where the high end builders go for locally supplied materials. There are a few others outside of Milwaukee, but they aren't as able to serve the industry as well because the local one has 6 or 7 locations and can transfer from one to another, as well as deliver to a large area. They also carry far more specialty products, like moulding.

 

[MrBoat]

I recall the offshore milling trend, or rumors to that effect at least. I wouldn't put it past the industry.

I ended up ordering Lloyds certified panels for my boat. Even that standard has suffered in recent decades. I did end up with 9mm containing 7 plies, and 18mm containing 13.

I randomly collect lumber and mill ends of historic wood in about my travels. A customer of mine, had a large tree fall on their home that was built around the turn of the last century. Just on a whim, before the insurance company's contractor was about to haul off the demolition debris, he called me over to have a look. It was old growth, rough sawn cypress. I ended up with a pickup truck load of full 2"x 12" heart cypress in virtually clear, 6'-10' lengths other than one edge that had sub flooring nailed to it, for free. Which basically left me with clear 2x10s of perfectly sound wood. I still have most of it. He gave it to me on my word that I would use it for my boats and other special projects where it would be seen.

Here's a piece of old growth heart pine. A section of about 90 board feet I salvaged out of a debris pile that they were about to mangle with a piece of heavy equipment. You just don't see this stuff too often anymore just laying around. You won't drive a nail in this without a pilot hole. This is from about the 1920's.

 

[MrBoat]

I did manage to get these speakers put together tonight. There's a 20uf cap between the bottom and top driver. I have some fiberglass tubing in various diameters. Used 1" for these by 2"L. Was gonna hook them up but it's been a long 2 days getting the garden planted for the season as well and entertaining the grandkids/helpers. If they sound good, I'll tidy up the cabinets or make them out of better plywood at least.

I know this is not a practical build. I have no reason for doing it other than a few people said they like them and just wanting to know why. Not every build has to be so serious and it's still fun eff'ng up sometimes.

In the mean time, I learned about the "Helium" speaker design by way of this thread and I intend to try those too and it ended up sending me on another research mission. Not bad for $48 worth of drivers and some crappy plywood. I could spend more than that going to see a movie.

 

[MrBoat]

Okay, couldn't stand it. Cup of coffee later and they're fired up. Crossed them with the sub at 120 and I am actually kind of shocked at how loud and clear these things actually are. Near field all the better but the damn things are managing to fill this room with some pretty darn nice mids/highs. This is where it's nice to have instant hands on EQ. I can see where some tuning with these would bring some pretty nice results.

This was my first real curiosity driven bout with full range drivers in actual practice. I really had no idea if I was going to like this, but I hear a lot of potential here, especially with subwoofers. Far as I can tell, this would make for a pretty kick ass desktop situation with a sub. So, if one was to build a small powered DIY sub to go with these, what are we talking, a couple hundred bucks?

Tom Scott's album "Smoking Section" is what I consider to be on the hot side with horns, piano, Patty Smyth's vocals on her cover of "Ode To Billy Joe," etc. and these little boxes are handling it. WTF?

 

[lsiberian]

I like the look of them. I think maybe a nice little Dayton Reference sub could do wonders. For a little set.

 

[lsiberian]

19mm is the Euro standard, along with thinner dimensions- if the suppliers are bringing variations into the US, it's because of sloppy tolerances and if it continues, it's because the US buyers are clueless or don't care.

I'm lucky enough that the local home depot carries good 13-ply or at least it did the last time I bought some. Although I'd love to get some really high quality stuff for my next major build.

 

[MrBoat]

I'm lucky enough that the local home depot carries good 13-ply or at least it did the last time I bought some. Although I'd love to get some really high quality stuff for my next major build.

13 ply is true cabinet grade. This 5 ply is not. 17.6 mm? What, they dimension it after it shrinks? Really frustrating when working from rough to finish dimension. I've been put off for years with Home Depot being the Walmart of hardware and build supplies. I'll just pay more for better quality. It's worth it just to avoid the frustration and the idea that you just got it stuck to you.

 

[highfigh]

I recall the offshore milling trend, or rumors to that effect at least. I wouldn't put it past the industry.

I ended up ordering Lloyds certified panels for my boat. Even that standard has suffered in recent decades. I did end up with 9mm containing 7 plies, and 18mm containing 13.

I randomly collect lumber and mill ends of historic wood in about my travels. A customer of mine, had a large tree fall on their home that was built around the turn of the last century. Just on a whim, before the insurance company's contractor was about to haul off the demolition debris, he called me over to have a look. It was old growth, rough sawn cypress. I ended up with a pickup truck load of full 2"x 12" heart cypress in virtually clear, 6'-10' lengths other than one edge that had sub flooring nailed to it, for free. Which basically left me with clear 2x10s of perfectly sound wood. I still have most of it. He gave it to me on my word that I would use it for my boats and other special projects where it would be seen.

Here's a piece of old growth heart pine. A section of about 90 board feet I salvaged out of a debris pile that they were about to mangle with a piece of heavy equipment. You just don't see this stuff too often anymore just laying around. You won't drive a nail in this without a pilot hole. This is from about the 1920's.

I worked for the lumber company I buy from during the Summer after I graduated high school and was able to scrounge some wood- I made a pair of speaker boxes (my first, an attempt to re-work the ones I had bought) and the baffles were Southern Yellow Pine, which is basically the same as heart Pine, but it wasn't old growth. It was very stiff, though. I also got some cupped Bird's eye Maple that was rejected for the pallets we were making. I still have most of it.

I worked at a stereo store with someone who would occasionally decide that he didn't want something and at that point, no amount of protesting or declining would help- he would beat someone to death with his insistence. Once, it was a box of vacuum tubes that he had collected over his years as as audio/TV service tech and I assumed they were mostly for TVs. I finally went through the box and found a bunch of old rectifiers, output tubes, preamp tubes and others that are good for HiFi/guitar amps. I donated the rest to an organization that involved service shops for electronics.

Another time, he was asked to git rid of the lumber his late father in law had stored next to the house, so he nagged me until I gave it. I went there, loaded the bed of my pickup almost to the point of not being able to steer and went home. Fast forward a couple of years an I decided to see what I had- mostly Red Oak, a bit of what looked like Beech and three boards that were much heavier. I planed most of the best boards and found that the heavy ones are Cherry.

 

[MrBoat]

I did get a reply back from Columbia Forest Products due to the lack of quality of their plywood. I have to carry it outside and flip it over to see if I can find a production/mill #.

Even when I was drilling the holes for the drivers and ports I was finding voids. Thought I had taken pictures of the 8-10" long voids I had to fill with cedar shim stock before routing the rabbets but I must have deleted them. But to find lengthy voids on multiple edges in just 2 ft from the end of the panel is not a fluke. They're offering a gift cert, which is a nice gesture. Still doesn't address the skimp on the panel thickness.