A little disappointed with my first classical SACD

[supervij]

I finally found Beethoven's 9th Symphony on surround SACD! It's the Berliner Philharmoniker conducted by Herbert von Karajan. The music is really gorgeous (especially the 2nd movement -- my favourite), but the surround SACD portion of the disc leaves a lot to be desired.

It IS 5.1, but I had to go up to the centre and the surround speakers to be able to hear anything coming out of them (and yes, my speakers are level matched). So really, it seems like 2.1 with a little tiny bit added added to the other three so that they could call it 5.1. I'm incredibly disappointed. I was expecting the surround mix to be as involving as rock 'n' roll surround mixes -- vocals from the centre, guitar from maybe the front left, keyboards from front right, drums from the surrounds, whatever. Instead, this disc was basically 2.1 with a little tiny eeny weeny bit thrown into the centre and surrounds. I wanted to feel like I was in the centre of the orchestra, not in the audience.

I don't want to generalize based on one disc, but are all classical surround mixes like this -- with the listener in the audience instead of in the centre of the orchestra? Does anyone know if there is a surround SACD of the 9th that is more involving?

cheers,
supervij

 

[Rob Babcock]

I don't recall if the 9th is one of them, but all of the Living Stereo 3 CH reissues on SACD that I have are wonderful, both sonically and musically.

 

[Resident Loser]

Well...

...foist, the quad debacle notwithstanding, von Karajan's demise pre-dates the arrival of any delivery system beyond that of 2-channel stereo (using 3-channel recordings, which were mixed to stereo for commercial release, will still only yield the forward quadrant as discrete L/C/R)...Even if the miking went beyond a Blumlein or some X/Y variant (which it most likely didn't), IMO chances are they were only some sort of ambience arrangement with very little discrete signal.

What you want is some close-miked, studio rendition...where the individual instruments are arbitrarily panned plop-plop in a non-existent, digitized reverberating environment...A piece of revisionist, new-age, performance-art more than the actual documentation of a "live" performance, where the strings are behind your left shoulder and the percussion is floating overhead...

While that sort of thing is a real whizz-bang for pop/rock, I personally hope classical and jazz releases never succumb to the dictates of techno-twaddle...

Sitting in the audience is fine with me...

jimHJJ(...just kindly keep the cellist out of the mezzanine...)

 

[tbewick]

I have heard similar criticism of SACD/DVD audio discs in the past. A reviewer on Radio 3 seemed to be of the view that all the extra speakers weren't necessary.

I do think that being too subtle in mix is better than being over the top. I bought the Flaming Lips Yoshimi Battles DVD and it isn't very subtle. The surround effects become a bit distracting after a while. I prefer the normal audio CD version.

 

[Hawkeye]

I have heard similar criticism of SACD/DVD audio discs in the past. A reviewer on Radio 3 seemed to be of the view that all the extra speakers weren't necessary.

I do think that being too subtle in mix is better than being over the top. I bought the Flaming Lips Yoshimi Battles DVD and it isn't very subtle. The surround effects become a bit distracting after a while. I prefer the normal audio CD version.

Personal preference I guess. When listening to a symphony, I agree, I prefer to be in my seat, hearing the subtle sonic reflections of the hall behind me, (if at all). When listening to YBtPR, I want to *be* the experience. Yes, I want to be right smack in the middle of it. Different strokes I guess.

 

[Rip Van Woofer]

As noted earlier, your recording was originally two channel. Not sure of the date but it might have even been an analog recording. Von Karajan made a few recordings of the Beethoven symphonies but I don't know when his last ones were.

In addition, Deutche Grammophon's sound wasn't great back then. Screechy violins is a common complaint. However, their "4D" digital recordings are often superb.

For most 2 channel source material I like using Dolby PL II Music to add some ambience via the rear channels.

 

[rgriffin25]

Try buying a Classical recording that has been recorded for SACD. Any of the Mahler Symphonies recorded by San Francisco Symphony/ Michael Tilson Thomas are very good recordings. Symphony no. 1 movement IV is incredible!

The older recordings in my opinion do not fare as well as the new ones in the high rez formats. Its a shame, because there are some awfully good performances that were recorded years ago.

 

[supervij]

I guess I'm just used to being in the middle of the band. This is my first classical SACD, and it's the first time I've heard a multi-channel SACD that's placed me in the audience. I just wasn't prepared for this. While I value subtlety, I felt that this was a bit too subtle. If I can't even tell that ANYTHING is coming out of the surrounds or even the centre, then I think that's just a wee bit TOO subtle. They should have just stuck with a stereo SACD; there's no point in adding the additional channels if you can't hear them. Just my opinion.

Resident Loser, have you heard Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon or Peter Gabriel's Up, both on SACD (or any other well mixed m/c SACD)? You might change your mind about this kind of surround music if you hear them. It's easy to dismiss these kind of recordings as "where the individual instruments are arbitrarily panned plop-plop", but the artists have been intimately involved in the mixing of these surround albums. Listening to DSotM, I've never felt that anything on the surround mix was arbitrary. It seemed quite thought out, and listening to the end result is nothing short of breathtaking. There's a huge difference between enjoying a concert (which my SACD of the 9th seems to be) and experiencing an album like DSotM or Up.

(Not looking to get into an argument here; just stating my opinion.)

cheers,
supervij

 

[Resident Loser]

I think you missed the point...

"...While that sort of thing is a real whizz-bang for pop/rock, I personally hope classical and jazz releases never succumb to the dictates of techno-twaddle..."

I'm quite familiar with DSTOM and have been so since '73 when I first purchased it...it is exactly the sort of thing that will benefit from multi-channel, much like Zep's "Whole Lotta' Love"...big on the WOW! faaar-out factor particularly when blitzed...If there are multi-track masters to retrieve the info and the composer/band/producer/artiste choses to go that route, fine...some things will work...some won't...some things are just so much hype to sell bought-and-paid-for catalogue, in a new and more expensive format or to lure new listeners...

I already see certain classical disc covers with a bit more decolletage than required as such a lure, I'm hoping neither it nor jazz feel the need to plop a performer in each corner of the listening room as some quad releases did back before that format went belly-up...very un-natural.

jimHJJ(...very...)