A couple of questions reg. subs placement

D

depechefan

Audioholic
Hi,

I understand that I need to try this out for myself and I will of course do that. I'm hoping to eliminate a couple of options before I start...

I plan to have 2 subs (Monitor Audio Silver W12, sealed).

I have attached an image of roughly how my setup will be in the future plus a couple of pictures that show my current setup and a few things which complicate matters - at least in my head. So here is what I'm primarily struggling with:

  • I'm going to put a carpet on the entire floor including the glass section. So I guess it should be OK to put speakers and subs on the part which is glass?
  • Can subs be placed further back than the front speakers in the room? That would be the case if I place them in the corner agaist the window for example
  • If I want to go by some popular options for placing subs one would be putting them against corners in front of the MLP. But that would mean that one is placed against the window. Would that work?
  • Another recommendation is placing the subs on the middle of the front and back wall. In my case that would mean that the front sub would be behind the TV and a piece of furniture which houses equipment and on which the centre speaker is placed so I assume that is out of the picture?

Any advice/clarification is much appreciated!

/M
 

Attachments

WaynePflughaupt

WaynePflughaupt

Audioholic Samurai
Tough situation.

My experience has been that the closer you get subs to the center of a wall, the worse they measure. I favor starting in corners and perhaps incrementally moving from there. Personally I’ve always had best results with subs in corners, along with some EQ to tame the inevitable peak in response. Getting them far away from corners often gets nulls that can't be EQ'd.

The corner window – I’d expect the concern would be that the sub would make it rattle.

Regarding your proposed new arrangement, could you flip the set-up, with the “front of house” being at the proposed sub location? Would that allow both subs to be in the front corner?

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 
D

depechefan

Audioholic
Thanks for the reply. I'm glad that I'm not alone in finding this difficult... Wrt. flipping the layout I find it difficult to see how I can do this. I've attached a photograph of the other end of the room. It will be difficult to come into the room because the door is in that end and also there is a pretty big windows down there as well (although certainly easier to deal with than the other one). I have no way of moving the door unfortunately.

/M
 

Attachments

WaynePflughaupt

WaynePflughaupt

Audioholic Samurai
Thanks for the picture, really helps. Okay then, the proposed floor plan it is!

No harm on trying sub in the front corner at the window. If it doesn’t work out you can always stack them both in the right corner. That might be the best option anyway, because even if you don’t have rattling problems with a sub in the window corner, that nearby open doorway is probably going to mess up its frequency response.

You might start with just the one sub you have, located in the right corner. It’s going to perform way better than where you have it now. You might find that it’s all you need. If it never bottoms out in the most demanding movie scenes, you probably don’t need a second one.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Though I'm a fan of MA Silver Speakers, I would never spend the money on their Subs! Please, curious to know/understand your motivation for choosing them? There are better products out there! :) (but saying that, I see you already have one... so since matching Subs is best, I guess that answers that question. :p )

I always start with my first advice: Do the Sub Crawl and identify 2-3 locations where the subwoofer performs the best, acoustically. Every room is different, and formulaic placement is not always appropriate. Corner Loading, Front Loading, 1/4-Wall, 1/2-Wall, etc... may have their merits in some specific situations, but not all. Considering you do have an open room floorplan, I would be even more encouraged to look for alternative locations rather than trying to stick to formula.
That said, I'm not disagreeing with Wayne, but their are other options for solving your situation!
 
D

depechefan

Audioholic
Thanks both. I forgot to mention that I will close the hole behind the sub in the current location because it just complicates things even more. Yes, ryanosaur, the reason I want to purchase the MA sub is because I purchased the one I have about 6 months ago so...
When you say stack the subs do you mean put them on top of each other?
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
My impression is that he is suggesting stacking (or co-locating) them. This will increase SPL, but not help out in the quest of evening out the Bass Response in your listening area.

You may have already stumbled on articles about the Welti/Devantier approach and possibly the Geddes approach to Multiple Subs. I am much more a fan of Geddes than the other approaches. Again, not saying one is more right than the other! ;) This is highly situation specific!!!
In my own room, corner loading results in amplified bass (considered good by many), but that Bass is also Muddy and Boomy. Thus I can unequivocally say that corner loading is not always the best strategy. ;)
My best measurements came with a completely asymmetric placement, towers on the front wall, subs on the sides, and no two measuring the same distance from any other. (Also, each is placed slightly off in terms of standoff distance from their walls, and for the mains the toe-in is slightly different too).

Using your existing sub, you should do the crawl and see what you find in your area. Keep your mind open to any and all placement locations! It is, just an experiment, afterall, but what you learn about the way Low Frequencies behave in your room may surprise you. :)
 
D

depechefan

Audioholic
I'm definitely looking more for realistic/clean bass than boomy or excessive. Of course I want impactful sound in movies but music is important to me. I'll look at the approaches you mention. The reason I was looking at dual subs is that I've read many articles and seen a lot of youtube videos where this is recommended to get a flatter response. Just seems difficult in my room.
When I use my current sub's auto calibration there is already something that rattles at a certain frequency. I hope to be able to remove this rattling by getting a carpet and closing the hole in the wall... Probably better to move ;-)
 
WaynePflughaupt

WaynePflughaupt

Audioholic Samurai
As Ryan mentioned, every room is different. That’s something to keep in mind with any of those Youtube videos you see – they are only useful if have a room that’s very similar to theirs.

It escaped my notice previously that your new listening position will be in the dead center of the room. Often the center of a room is a “bass hole” with the lowest perceived level of bass. You will find that bass levels increase as you move from that location towards any wall.

So, you might indeed need that second sub. Your previous seat was against the wall, which is typically where bass levels are the strongest.

Analyzing people’s frequency response graphs for their subs for over 15 years now, I’ve consistently seen that locations in or near corners with uninterrupted walls in both directions gets the most output, the lowest extension, and the best frequency response with no nulls. I can probably count on one hand with fingers left over the number of times I’ve seen that a corner just did not work. The primary issue with corner placement is a peak in response that will make the sub “boomy,” but that’s an easy fix with parametric equalization.

In fact, virtually any sub system in a residential setting will require equalization for optimal performance. If you don’t want to use EQ, then experimenting with placement is the only option. You will probably be able to find a location without the “boom” you get from a corner, but the compromise will be reduced output and extension, and probably a null or two.

Not that’s the end of the world. My current living situation did not accommodate a system arrangement that included a good corner for the sub. So, for the first time ever I have a null. Fortunately, it looks worse on a graph than it actually sounds. I haven’t really noticed it at all.

By the way, with a $100 calibrated mic and the freeware Room EQ Wizard, you can take accurate frequency response of your sub in any location you might consider locating it. Takes the guesswork out of it.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 
D

depechefan

Audioholic
Makes a ton of sense. I have looked at REW and will likely start testing with that tool. What is your experience with the Room Simulator in that tool? Because when I use that to move subs around it looks quite terrible :)
 

Attachments

WaynePflughaupt

WaynePflughaupt

Audioholic Samurai
I've never used that feature. It's mainly telling you what frequencies you can expect to see a peak or null in response given a specific location you have the sub in. The middle graph looks pretty good in that regard, might be showing a viable location.

However, calculators like that work best if you have a perfectly symmetrical "shoebox" room. That "hole" you have in the floor near the window corner, or door openings that can't be closed with a door, etc. will screw it up, as will things like vaulted or cathedral ceilings.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top