A) Anthem MRX 510 (with Amp added later) or B) Outlaw 975/Emotiva UMC 200 with Outlaw 7125

  • Thread starter Manikandan Gopinathan
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I enjoyed reading that guy's articles, but mostly for fun. It seems to me he is one reviewer that do not have much technical knowledge on the electrical stuff, not even the basics. I have no trouble believing the Emo pair beats the 20 lbs Denon 1912 though, but some of the other things he said, were almost hilarious. I also just happened to agree the 1912 is excellent, the way he described it, that's amazing.. On the other hand, I wouldn't use it (the 1912) as my reference AVR. He said he used it as one of his reference receivers and that surprised me. To avoid taking things out of context, here's the full sentence:

"The Denon sounded excellent, that's why I've used it as one of my reference receivers for the last two years, but the UMC-200 and UPA-500 took the sound to another level."

Just want to make one more point, Denon AVRs typically have UL approval, not sure about the EMO, and Denon's mid range AVRs, even those below the 4520 (he said no 4ohm rating, but it is rated 4 ohms) had been bench tested for 4 ohm loads. You can read up on some of the results right here at AH.

Sorry, can't resist.
I think CNET is no more than another guy's opinion on a forum. In this case, it's a guy who uses a high end "reference" Denon 1912.:D
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Let's get some audio review links from CNET, Consumer Digest, and Consumer Reports and we got ourselves 3 awesome review sources that cannot lie. :D
 
B

big O

Junior Audioholic
I still don't think Emotiva separates sound any better than a Denon AVR in most situations. :D
lol. it just so happens that last night i was in a home that has a fairly decent audio system. $ 12k thiel speakers. klipsch rc7s etc. he was running a very high end marantz(or denon) receiver, but running the preouts to emotiva amps. it sounded awesome.

i should have told him wasted money on the amps because the receiver amps sound just as good :D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
lol. it just so happens that last night i was in a home that has a fairly decent audio system. $ 12k thiel speakers. klipsch rc7s etc. he was running a very high end marantz(or denon) receiver, but running the preouts to emotiva amps. it sounded awesome.

i should have told him wasted money on the amps because the receiver amps sound just as good :D
No, whatever makes him HAPPY is good. Happiness is SALIENT in life. ;)
 
Cos

Cos

Audioholic Samurai
The more I read about this, the more things I would have done differently if I was just starting out. I would save a few $$ get a receiver and get the best quality Speakers I liked and could afford. I would get a receiver that has pre-outs so I could have the ability to have separates should I become unsatisfied with the sound. I would wager that better quality speakers with a receiver (good quality receiver) would sound better than lesser quality speakers with pre/pro. I know I am making very general statements here, and there are a lot of variables, but the bottom line, if I had x budget, I would build it around the speakers and not around the pre/pro or Receiver.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
The more I read about this, the more things I would have done differently if I was just starting out. I would save a few $$ get a receiver and get the best quality Speakers I liked and could afford. I would get a receiver that has pre-outs so I could have the ability to have separates should I become unsatisfied with the sound. I would wager that better quality speakers with a receiver (good quality receiver) would sound better than lesser quality speakers with pre/pro. I know I am making very general statements here, and there are a lot of variables, but the bottom line, if I had x budget, I would build it around the speakers and not around the pre/pro or Receiver.
I feel the same. I have 3 systems based on separates, one used mainly for HT. If I didn't spend so much on separates, I could have gotten better speaker for at least one of my 2 channel system. The difference between my 1028 Be, LS50, and R900 are so obvious that one does not need to be blindfolded to notice the difference, whereas the difference between my old AVR and A21/CA preamp is not near as obvious.
 
B

big O

Junior Audioholic
The more I read about this, the more things I would have done differently if I was just starting out. I would save a few $$ get a receiver and get the best quality Speakers I liked and could afford. I would get a receiver that has pre-outs so I could have the ability to have separates should I become unsatisfied with the sound. I would wager that better quality speakers with a receiver (good quality receiver) would sound better than lesser quality speakers with pre/pro. I know I am making very general statements here, and there are a lot of variables, but the bottom line, if I had x budget, I would build it around the speakers and not around the pre/pro or Receiver.
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

i would bet that you would be completely unhappy with the sound of a setup that consisted of a pair of $20,000 sonus amati homage and a $200 sony receiver.

here is a clue - when a manufacturer will not tell you the wattage and distortion of a receiver, from 20hz to 20k, when all channels are being driven, you know something is wrong.

I personally, would never ever go back to a receiver.
 
B

big O

Junior Audioholic
I feel the same. I have 3 systems based on separates, one used mainly for HT. If I didn't spend so much on separates, I could have gotten better speaker for at least one of my 2 channel system. The difference between my 1028 Be, LS50, and R900 are so obvious that one does not need to be blindfolded to notice the difference, whereas the difference between my old AVR and A21/CA preamp is not near as obvious.

are you talking about differences in sonic quality or sonic signature?

I listened to a setup yesterday with three pairs of very high end speakers, the cheapest being $3200/pair.
sure, they sounded different (my favorites were the $12k thiels) but one didnt sound better than the others, just different.

another thing you may be forgetting- some of the best high end speakers DEMAND even better amplification than average speaker. so spending more on a speaker by saving on amplification could actually be going backwards.
 
Cos

Cos

Audioholic Samurai
are you talking about differences in sonic quality or sonic signature?

I listened to a setup yesterday with three pairs of very high end speakers, the cheapest being $3200/pair.
sure, they sounded different (my favorites were the $12k thiels) but one didnt sound better than the others, just different.

another thing you may be forgetting- some of the best high end speakers DEMAND even better amplification than average speaker. so spending more on a speaker by saving on amplification could actually be going backwards.

Apparently you did read the part where I spoke in "general" terms, it is always possible to find exceptions to any rule. I wouldn't buy a $500 receiver for a pair of Focal Utopia, but if you are spending that kind of money, you can afford separates. You use extreme examples to make your point, but it doing so it makes your point less impactful.

"A Chain is only as strong as it's weakest link" -- Not a good example IMO

Let's look at a PC, if I have a lower CPU on a PC with a High end Video Card, it will often times preform better than a Higher end CPU with a lower end video card. and NO, I would not match my ATI 290X Crossfire with a 386 CPU ;). But I were on a budget, I would do a Core i5 Vs Core i7 and lesser GPU for gaming. My point being, if I was going to maximize the performance per $ I would invest in the components that give me the best performance, in this case its the speakers. It doesn't mean I match a $200.00 receiver with a 20k Speaker. You are creating unrealistic examples to make your point.

I will use the examples of my GE T1s, if I were starting out, I would rather start out getting my T1s with a receiver, than separates and a pair of T3s. My T1s do very well with my lower end Integra receiver and would sound better than separates with a pair of T3s.

"Sonic Signature" or however you wish to describe it at least agrees with my comments that the speakers themselves have a greater impact on sound than that of a receiver vs. Separates or Pre/Pro.
 
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B

big O

Junior Audioholic
@Cos

sounds like you and i may be in agreement that a balanced system may be the best scenario? ie dont put all the money into speakers, and dont put all the money into amps. put the right amount of money into speakers and the right amount of money into the chain?

speakers have a great impact on sound. all the speakers i listened to yesterday sounded amazing. but one is just not going to get the most out of a speaker when feeding it with poor components. oh the injustice :)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
are you talking about differences in sonic quality or sonic signature?
Good question, people may define sonic quality and sonic signature differently so I won't try to define them here. I can say that when I compared the KEF LS50 to the R900, the main differences are mainly due to their different frequency response. Neither one had audible distortions as such and I plotted graphs with REW so I know could see that their THDs were indeed low enough for them to be audible. Their frequency responses are quite different. The R900 is much larger so for that comparison I use music that has little contents below 50 Hz and have the sub disconnected.

I listened to a setup yesterday with three pairs of very high end speakers, the cheapest being $3200/pair.
sure, they sounded different (my favorites were the $12k thiels) but one didnt sound better than the others, just different.
In terms of price range that would be similar to my comparison between my Focal and my KEF. The Focal is not listed at 12K but its brother 1038 is. The difference between the 28 and 38 are mainly bass below 40 Hz. My Focal and KEF are in different rooms so that's not a fair comparison, but my impression is that their differences are still mainly due to their different freq response characteristics.

another thing you may be forgetting- some of the best high end speakers DEMAND even better amplification than average speaker. so spending more on a speaker by saving on amplification could actually be going backwards.
I agree, but in my case I can get the SPL I need or even tolerate, with the amps cruising at well below 1W with peaks to 30 or 40W per channel at the most. Most of the time my amps never hit the 30W mark, and my speakers do dip to 4 ohms and below at some points. Regardless, after going back and forth many times, I have decided to replace the preamp with the 3805 (a Denon receiver) just to get some bass management for the tiny LS50. That receiver/amp/LS50/Sub combo sounds great and fun too.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
@Cos

sounds like you and i may be in agreement that a balanced system may be the best scenario? ie dont put all the money into speakers, and dont put all the money into amps. put the right amount of money into speakers and the right amount of money into the chain?

speakers have a great impact on sound. all the speakers i listened to yesterday sounded amazing. but one is just not going to get the most out of a speaker when feeding it with poor components. oh the injustice :)
Not sure about Cos, but finally you said something I can agree with, balance is the key word, how to get there is a different story.:D:D
 
Cos

Cos

Audioholic Samurai
I agree with a balanced system, never go to one extreme or the other, but it was in reference to the actual post that started this thread and neither the Anthem or Denon are poor components for most speaker types, and give you the pre-outs to expand.
 
B

big O

Junior Audioholic
Not sure about Cos, but finally you said something I can agree with, balance is the key word, how to get there is a different story.:D:D
finally? lol
getting there is a different story i agree. home theater is a beast compared to two channel audio.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
i would bet that you would be completely unhappy with the sound of a setup that consisted of a pair of $20,000 sonus amati homage and a $200 sony receiver.
I bet most people would NOT be unhappy with the sound if they thought the $200 Sony AVR was a $20K amp/preamp (if it were a blind-test).

I would be very unhappy if I paid $20,000 for the speakers. :D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I listened to a setup yesterday with three pairs of very high end speakers, the cheapest being $3200/pair.
sure, they sounded different (my favorites were the $12k thiels) but one didnt sound better than the others, just different.
You could have 100 amps or AVR ranging from $300 to $30,000 and one amp or AVR wouldn't sound subjectively BETTER than the others either.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I would say the differences among speakers is 100% more significant than the differences among amps.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
@Cos
but one is just not going to get the most out of a speaker when feeding it with poor components. oh the injustice :)
Not all receivers are "poor components", certainly not the Denon 4xxx series.

Not all separates are "high quality components".

I think I've heard of a lot more issues with Emotiva pre-pros in the past than most Denon or Yamaha AVR.
 
B

big O

Junior Audioholic
You could have 100 amps or AVR ranging from $300 to $30,000 and one amp or AVR wouldn't sound subjectively BETTER than the others either.
subjectively?

ive compared a $200 sony to a $500 denon and the sound quality was immediately noticeably better.

then i upgraded the denon receiver to a rotel 1069 and had another improvement in sound quality.

its funny you seem to be leaning towards the all amps sound the same yet you are running separates, no?
 
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